Legends wasn't broken - please don't fix it

[LN Strike Eagle]

P51, Storch, B25, Sea Fury, C47 and the Sky raider.
Phil

Which were the missing P-51 and B-25?

Nordic Warbirds P-51
Red Bull B-25

Ta. Nordic P-51 would be 'Old Crow'?

[Rob.Brindley]

I would guess so, but can't be 100% sure

[cw318is]

I thought Nooky Booky IV was due to be over?

[UK Airshow Review]

A world where only praise is allowed is a slippery slope.

Indeed. Our feelings 100%

We wonder why it is that air displays seem to be the only form of public, paid-for entertainment where criticism is frowned on from some quarters.

If you paid £35 for a concert, and the headline act shuffled on stage, and mumbled through a couple of B-sides, you'd be furious. Just as you'd criticise poor displays from sports teams, a rubbish movie you've gone to see at the cinema, or a duff night at the theatre.

UKAR exists to discuss, debate, praise and criticise. This is what we are, and who we are. Always have been, and always will be.

Of course, ALL are free to have their opinions and points of view. Punters, aircrew, show organisers etc. Let's hear your opinions - that's what a forum is for.

Already this year, Cosford have publicly stated how feedback and criticism on UKAR shaped the 2012 show for the better, and you only have to look at the hue and cry over RIAT 2011 to see that organisers LISTEN to complaints from their customers.

Only in the most extreme cases will we censor. To ask us to do so, would be to ask UKAR to betray our ethos.

[ILoveLightnings]

A world where only praise is allowed is a slippery slope.

Indeed. Our feelings 100%

We wonder why it is that air displays seem to be the only form of public, paid-for entertainment where criticism is frowned on from some quarters.

If you paid £35 for a concert, and the headline act shuffled on stage, and mumbled through a couple of B-sides, you'd be furious. Just as you'd criticise poor displays from sports teams, a rubbish movie you've gone to see at the cinema, or a duff night at the theatre.

UKAR exists to discuss, debate, praise and criticise. This is what we are, and who we are. Always have been, and always will be.

Of course, ALL are free to have their opinions and points of view. Punters, aircrew, show organisers etc. Let's hear your opinions - that's what a forum is for.

Already this year, Cosford have publicly stated how feedback and criticism on UKAR shaped the 2012 show for the better, and you only have to look at the hue and cry over RIAT 2011 to see that organisers LISTEN to complaints from their customers.

Only in the most extreme cases will we censor. To ask us to do so, would be to ask UKAR to betray our ethos.

Sorry, I also defend free speech and also believe that feedback, where constructive, is useful to any organisation but I feel you missed my point. My intention was not to stifle free speech or dismiss negative opinions.
A man died today in a display and I felt that some of the comments made now looked crass and insensitive regarding the level of excitement at Legends. I know that the comments were made before the incident today but they were made after the terrible events of last year and I still think we should all reflect on this when we ask, in essence, for a more "risky" display. Insert dynamic, exciting or edgy if you don't like risky.
I have witnessed 2 crashes at airshows in over 30 years of attendance. One was sadly fatal and personally, If I have to watch a safer less exciting display and everyone goes home alive, then sign me up for that one.

Pat

[UK Airshow Review]

This thread is discussing Flying Legends - no-one is relating it to, nor confusing it with the sad events elsewhere.

[ILoveLightnings]

This thread is discussing Flying Legends - no-one is relating it to, nor confusing it with the sad events elsewhere.

No further comment required. I made my point, you don't agree.

[Thoughtful_Flyer]

A man died today in a display and I felt that some of the comments made now looked crass and insensitive regarding the level of excitement at Legends. I know that the comments were made before the incident today but they were made after the terrible events of last year and I still think we should all reflect on this when we ask, in essence, for a more "risky" display. Insert dynamic, exciting or edgy if you don't like risky.
I have witnessed 2 crashes at airshows in over 30 years of attendance. One was sadly fatal and personally, If I have to watch a safer less exciting display and everyone goes home alive, then sign me up for that one.

Pat

Despite the newspaper reports the tragic loss at Old Warden was not in a display. It was some four hours before the display was due to start.

The only truly safe way to display aircraft is static and I suspect few who are likely to read this want that. Anything else involves a judgement call as to what is and is not an acceptable risk. For example, having only one aircraft in the air at a time would dramatically reduce the dangers but would destroy the whole essence of Legends.

[RodMcKenzie]

UKAR exists to discuss, debate, praise and criticise.

All very laudable.

As to the display itself, it was definitely a 'down' year for Legends, but we still got debutantes like the Mk.1 Spits, P47, S-38, Yak-11 & Storch (on the Sunday); while the P38 & French Fury displays were utterly scintillating and echoed the early years of the show. I personally found the combination of P47, Sally B & the Manhattan Dolls quite moving, and I don't think I was the only one. And I'll never understand why people on here dump on Team Breitling - if a barnstorming display involving Stearmans doesn't fit the Legends model, then I have no idea what does (the Aerostars' connection is admittedly rather more marginal, but even they put on a fine show in testing conditions).

It's arguable that Waddington had a better line-up this year, but there was never any question as to where I'd be spending the weekend - Flying Legends is the highlight of my summer, and even a "lesser" Legends will always trump anything else on offer.

[Dragon Rapide]

UKAR exists to discuss, debate, praise and criticise.

All very laudable.

As to the display itself, it was definitely a 'down' year for Legends, but we still got debutantes like the Mk.1 Spits, P47, S-38, Yak-11 & Storch (on the Sunday); while the P38 & French Fury displays were utterly scintillating and echoed the early years of the show. I personally found the combination of P47, Sally B & the Manhattan Dolls quite moving, and I don't think I was the only one. And I'll never understand why people on here dump on Team Breitling - if a barnstorming display involving Stearmans doesn't fit the Legends model, then I have no idea what does (the Aerostars' connection is admittedly rather more marginal, but even they put on a fine show in testing conditions).

It's arguable that Waddington had a better line-up this year, but there was never any question as to where I'd be spending the weekend - Flying Legends is the highlight of my summer, and even a "lesser" Legends will always trump anything else on offer.

COULDN'T HAVE PUT IT BETTER MYSELF!

[AlexC]

I attended the show yesterday (Sunday) first time since 2007. I have to agree with what most people are saying in that I thought it was rather lacklustre, at least nothing like as good as I'd remembered it to be. For the first time I decided to go up on the tank bank (I always go to the east end) which proved to be a mistake that I won't repeat. The French? commentator has in my IMHO the most unsuitable voice in the airshow business, and combined with his constant waffle not at all good.

[Smog Monster]

I actually like the French commentator. It's refreshing to hear someone talk so effortlessley about how aircraft make them feel, as opposed to just rattling off facts, figures and a scripted description of what's happening. I know his style won't be to everyone's taste, but I like it.

[Dragon Rapide]

Interesting - the first mention on here of Bernard Chabbert, a mainstay of Legends for years, and who never ceases to be pilloried on "another" forum. He can be irritating sometimes but I think I have become inured to him over the years.....

[DanO1978]

I actually like the French commentator. It's refreshing to hear someone talk so effortlessley about how aircraft make them feel, as opposed to just rattling off facts, figures and a scripted description of what's happening. I know his style won't be to everyone's taste, but I like it.

It would be a very dull world if every airshow sounded the same. M.Chabbert's style suits Legends perfectly. Glad to see the UKARians, who know a thing or two, can appreciate him.

[Dragon Rapide]

I actually like the French commentator. It's refreshing to hear someone talk so effortlessley about how aircraft make them feel, as opposed to just rattling off facts, figures and a scripted description of what's happening. I know his style won't be to everyone's taste, but I like it.

Perfectly put!

[timuss]

Well i must have been at a different Legends, as i thought it was a great weekend. Lots of highlights i thout Eric Goujoin in the Fury was superb!!! The three Mk1 Spits were amazing at least on the Sunday after AR213 had to abort after gear issues.

Sure it would be nice to have more heavies and fighters but in these tough economic conditions, we have to be greatful with what we can get IMO.

[pb643]

I actually like the French commentator. It's refreshing to hear someone talk so effortlessley about how aircraft make them feel, as opposed to just rattling off facts, figures and a scripted description of what's happening. I know his style won't be to everyone's taste, but I like it.

Perfectly put!

There can't be many commentators who can speak from first hand experience about flying some of the types in the display.

I personally find him very entertaining and informative in a very relaxed and easy to listen to way.

Phil

[Orion]

A man died today in a display and I felt that some of the comments made now looked crass and insensitive regarding the level of excitement at Legends. I know that the comments were made before the incident today but they were made after the terrible events of last year and I still think we should all reflect on this when we ask, in essence, for a more "risky" display. Insert dynamic, exciting or edgy if you don't like risky.
I have witnessed 2 crashes at airshows in over 30 years of attendance. One was sadly fatal and personally, If I have to watch a safer less exciting display and everyone goes home alive, then sign me up for that one.

Pat

Despite the newspaper reports the tragic loss at Old Warden was not in a display. It was some four hours before the display was due to start.

The only truly safe way to display aircraft is static and I suspect few who are likely to read this want that. Anything else involves a judgement call as to what is and is not an acceptable risk. For example, having only one aircraft in the air at a time would dramatically reduce the dangers but would destroy the whole essence of Legends.

No, I wouldn't want historic aircraft to be static only and I would doubt if anyone at the Shuttleworth want that either. Having said that I do disagree that 'having one aircraft in the air ... would destroy the whole essence of Legends'. If you are refering to the tail chases then these have to be a long way from the spectators in order to reduce the risk to them to zero (but it transfers the risk to those outside, who might just be bystanders, like driving along the M11). Formations, straight and level, are not an issue (the blokes who collided last year were not following simple rules of airmanship), but the tail chases are. Do away with those and the aircraft can be demonstrated along the grass runway in pefect safety and very attractively. Lots of other airshows do this and there is no reason why Duxford can't either. The tail chases are extremely boring because they are so far away and they are inherently risky. On Saturday two pilots got into difficulties - one a Spitfire Mk1 whose undercarriage hadn't retracted properly, the other a P-51 who appeared to stall - while in a tail chase. They should be banned and replaced by singletons who can brought closer to the paying customer.

Regards

[Screechy]

Went down to the M11 end this year on the Sunday. Weather was hit and miss but that's not Duxford's fault. Good thing is not being able to hear the commentary and in theory the light works out better down there for a while at least. Saw the incident with the Staggerwing unfold when it grounded it's prop moving between the concrete and the grass, not sure if he dabbed his breaks too hard or what happened but it was dealt with quickly.

Thought the show was pretty stitched together pretty well with no big gaps. The flying display itself to me sees some wasted opportunities. The spit tail chase is excellent... if you are in the naughty field. For the paying public you get the same two spits making some nice passes with the remaining majority further out. Surely it wouldn't take much of a leap of imagination to have the 2 sections switch sides after a number of passes.

I look at shows from the photography aspect so i'm going to be biased towards that side of things. Personally i wasn't keen on the parking pattern with the aircraft facing away on the flight line walk but that could have been dictated by the wind direction.

All in all I enjoyed the show, it wasn't a classic and it was certainly watered down a fair bit but still good stuff. It didn't appear to be particularly well attended hence the ease at which I could drive out the car park even though I didn't hang around after the show finished but neither did Waddo the day before.

[DanO1978]

The tail-chases are a terrific spectacle if you're outside the airfield, but as you say, inside they are much too distant. The same is true with Legends using two parallel display axes. Sally B was near the crowd, Snafu further away. With the Curtiss Hawks, the crowd saw the P-40s close-up, but not the P-36, ditto for the dark camo Yak.

Spread the show out to 4-5hrs, and display everything properly, with 5-7 min slots like other airshows do. Then the punters at least have a chance to appreciate each display equally.

[DanO1978]

Went down to the M11 end this year on the Sunday. Weather was hit and miss but that's not Duxford's fault. Good thing is not being able to hear the commentary and in theory the light works out better down there for a while at least. Saw the incident with the Staggerwing unfold when it grounded it's prop moving between the concrete and the grass, not sure if he dabbed his breaks too hard or what happened but it was dealt with quickly.

Thought the show was pretty stitched together pretty well with no big gaps. The flying display itself to me sees some wasted opportunities. The spit tail chase is excellent... if you are in the naughty field. For the paying public you get the same two spits making some nice passes with the remaining majority further out. Surely it wouldn't take much of a leap of imagination to have the 2 sections switch sides after a number of passes.

I look at shows from the photography aspect so i'm going to be biased towards that side of things. Personally i wasn't keen on the parking pattern with the aircraft facing away on the flight line walk but that could have been dictated by the wind direction.

All in all I enjoyed the show, it wasn't a classic and it was certainly watered down a fair bit but still good stuff. It didn't appear to be particularly well attended hence the ease at which I could drive out the car park even though I didn't hang around after the show finished but neither did Waddo the day before.

You must be able to hear the commentary at all points along the crowdline. If not, that is a breach of airshow regulations.

[T3MP3ST]

Guys,,please - everyone is due to an opinion but let's not forget that these aircraft are mostly all 60+ year old ladies - they're not always going to be available, not always going to be able to the give 'the' performance of their long careers and let's not even think about the cost implications! So let's be a little more 'glass half full' and 'glass not half empty'

I agree, there wasn't the quantity of aircraft as per normal - but, it is what it is- did it ruin my day on Saturday? No! It was brilliant and I loved every moment! My father and I sat on the flight line infront of MH434 - was amazing sights and sounds at the start of the show at take off!! To me, personally, worth the entrance fee alone! Am grateful to all participants who flew in somewhat challenging gusty conditions - I applaud you all

Of course there could be improvements - goes without saying. Like most am a veteran of many, many Flying Legend shows and have only missed one through illness - long may they continue!

Out of interest - does anyone know the gate attendance for the two days?

[UKTopgun]

I too noticed numbers perhaps a little lower than past years - I guessed it could be the 'Olympics' effect - a lot of Joe Public are going to Olympic events very soon and hence they are spending the 'leisure money' there and not at shows this month... don't know, could be wrong.

[AlexC]

I wasn't aware that Bernard Chabbert was being pilloried on 'another' forum. However, if UKARians who allegedly 'know a thing or two' are content to listen to his dull, humdrum tones then all I can say is good for them!

[LN Strike Eagle]

I look at shows from the photography aspect so i'm going to be biased towards that side of things. Personally i wasn't keen on the parking pattern with the aircraft facing away on the flight line walk but that could have been dictated by the wind direction.

Interesting. Why do you say that? Tail draggers are infinitely more photogenic parked in that fashion. When they're parked facing the crowd, all you get is a photo full of propellor blades; the cockit, markings etc are all masked from view.

I'm really regretting not returning yesterday to shoot the flightline.