Sept Airshow South side viewing

Discuss airshows and other aviation events at the Imperial War Museum
Thoughtful_Flyer
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Re: Sept Airshow South side viewing

Post by Thoughtful_Flyer »

phreakf4 wrote:
J.Smith photography wrote: ...............especially those concerning the layout of crowd areas, the display line distances, the limitations on vectors during aerobatic manoeuvres and the "pointless, prissy H&S rules" are there to ensure, as far as is reasonably possible, that in the event of a problem with aircraft or pilot, the "burning wreckage" is unlikely to end up in the crowd area.


And rightly so.....

This ties in with the fact that all Duxford airshow crashes have ended up on the runway or outside the airfield where there is likely (although no guarantee) to be less people. What that doesn't address, and CAP 403 acknowledges this, is that the organisers have no jurisdiction whatsoever over who is on that land. Obviously (well presumably!) if there was a large gathering of people for some non airshow reason it wouldn't be considered safe to fly. When there are a relative few people it comes down to a judgement call.
Last edited by Thoughtful_Flyer on Sun 21 Sep 2014, 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sept Airshow South side viewing

Post by J.Smith photography »

phreakf4 wrote:
J.Smith photography wrote: Also who's to say if the pilot is unconscious, or out of control that the aircraft won't end up in the crowds of paying spectators...


That one statement proves conclusively that you know far less about the organisation and running of air shows and flying displays than you think you do.

Have you actually read and understood CAP 403?

If you had you would realise that much of the applicable regulations, especially those concerning the layout of crowd areas, the display line distances, the limitations on vectors during aerobatic manoeuvres and the "pointless, prissy H&S rules" are there to ensure, as far as is reasonably possible, that in the event of a problem with aircraft or pilot, the "burning wreckage" is unlikely to end up in the crowd area.


That really worked at Reno then :whistle:
Also where did I claim to know about airshow organising etc?? I don't remember claiming to know anything about that

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cw318is
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Re: Sept Airshow South side viewing

Post by cw318is »

Shall we add Geography to the list of things you don't know about but think you do?

CAP403 is a CAA publication, for the UK by the UK in the UK. Reno is in the US, so actually governed by the FAA and a completely different mandated waiver which makes the minimum distance from the crowd 500'. The Galloping Ghost tragedy wouldn't have happened on the CAA's watch.
DamienB wrote:Airshows aren't just about sunlit topsides chaps.

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Re: Sept Airshow South side viewing

Post by J.Smith photography »

cw318is wrote:Shall we add Geography to the list of things you don't know about but think you do?

CAP403 is a CAA publication, for the UK by the UK in the UK. Reno is in the US, so actually governed by the FAA and a completely different mandated waiver which makes the minimum distance from the crowd 500'. The Galloping Ghost tragedy wouldn't have happened on the CAA's watch.


I think my A* in geography begs to differ :whistle:
I was just using that as an example. At the end of the day air shows are dangerous wherever they are viewed from, whether it be outside the venue or inside

DanO1978
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Re: Sept Airshow South side viewing

Post by DanO1978 »

jayne_morris wrote:is part of the problem at Duxford if you go into the fields off grange road then you have easy access to the airfield and the runway ie no high fences

you have seen plenty of stupid people standing under the windsock which is actually within the boundary of the airfield, certain people that use these fields have spoilt it for others


I've also seen the fire crews sat over there with their families during past displays. Can't be that dangerous, can it?

PeterR
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Re: Sept Airshow South side viewing

Post by PeterR »

Private Custard wrote:Looking at the statistics, I'm pretty certain that there's a much higher chance of being killed when viewing from inside shows, than from any naughty field.

1952, Farnborough - 29 dead, 60 injured.

1998, Rammstein - 67 dead, more than 300 injured.

2002, Sknyliv - 77 dead, more than 500 injured.

2010, Lauf-Lillinghof - 38 injured, 5 seriously.

2011, Reno - 11 dead, 69 injured.

Just throwing it out there!


Well you've tactically selected statistics to prove your point, which is absolutely ridiculous! :mad:

The last time a spectator died at a British Airshow was 1952, after which various flying display rules and legislation were introduced. How many crashes have their been at British Airshows since then...? Sadly too many, however non of which have resulted in a spectator death!

Private Custard
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Re: Sept Airshow South side viewing

Post by Private Custard »

PeterR wrote:
Private Custard wrote:Looking at the statistics, I'm pretty certain that there's a much higher chance of being killed when viewing from inside shows, than from any naughty field.

1952, Farnborough - 29 dead, 60 injured.

1998, Rammstein - 67 dead, more than 300 injured.

2002, Sknyliv - 77 dead, more than 500 injured.

2010, Lauf-Lillinghof - 38 injured, 5 seriously.

2011, Reno - 11 dead, 69 injured.

Just throwing it out there!


Well you've tactically selected statistics to prove your point, which is absolutely ridiculous! :mad:

The last time a spectator died at a British Airshow was 1952, after which various flying display rules and legislation were introduced. How many crashes have their been at British Airshows since then...? Sadly too many, however non of which have resulted in a spectator death!


Well how about you go and tactically select 'naughty-side' fatalities then? I'll warn you though, I spent a lot of time looking!

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pbeardmore
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Re: Sept Airshow South side viewing

Post by pbeardmore »

Just a thought - I think we are all lucky that the farmer does their best to NOT allow freeloaders into the field and, therefore , keeps the numbers down to a relative handful compared to the crowd within then museum grounds. Imagine the situation if the farm land was sold and the new owner decided to create revenue by charging £5 a car with BBQ, bouncy castle etc etc. How many people could IWM tolerate in that field before having to review the safety of the show?
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pbeardmore
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Re: Sept Airshow South side viewing

Post by pbeardmore »

Just to add to that, if the land owner or approved representative is on the boundary and advises people that they are not allowed on the land, if they ignore that advise and push past onto the land and that leads to an argument, you have a breach of the peace and it would be pretty clear to the police who cuased the breach
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CJS
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Re: Sept Airshow South side viewing

Post by CJS »

Anyone know if a pilot has ever changed or cut short a display at Duxford due to the presence of spectators in a non-official viewing area? Just wondering.
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DanO1978
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Re: Sept Airshow South side viewing

Post by DanO1978 »

Chris Strawson wrote:Anyone know if a pilot has ever changed or cut short a display at Duxford due to the presence of spectators in a non-official viewing area? Just wondering.
Chris


No, but plenty have requested copies of the photographs that come from that location... :icecream:

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tommo999
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Re: Sept Airshow South side viewing

Post by tommo999 »

DanO1978 wrote:
Chris Strawson wrote:Anyone know if a pilot has ever changed or cut short a display at Duxford due to the presence of spectators in a non-official viewing area? Just wondering.
Chris


No, but plenty have requested copies of the photographs that come from that location... :icecream:


I remember a few years back the tower asked a pilot how many people were standing under the approach, which is arguably a more dangerous location!

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Rule 27
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Re: Sept Airshow South side viewing

Post by Rule 27 »

pbeardmore wrote:How many people could IWM tolerate in that field before having to review the safety of the show?

Probably a similar number to RIAT, which I'd guess at being at least 500? :whistle:

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st24
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Re: Sept Airshow South side viewing

Post by st24 »

Private Custard wrote:
st24 wrote:
Private Custard wrote:Looking at the statistics, I'm pretty certain that there's a much higher chance of being killed when viewing from inside shows, than from any naughty field.

1952, Farnborough - 29 dead, 60 injured.

1998, Rammstein - 67 dead, more than 300 injured.

2002, Sknyliv - 77 dead, more than 500 injured.

2010, Lauf-Lillinghof - 38 injured, 5 seriously.

2011, Reno - 11 dead, 69 injured.

Just throwing it out there!

That's fine and dandy but ALL of the Duxford crashes have happened in the naughty areas...


How many spectator fatalities?


You can throw statistics at anything - statistically which venue has had the most airshow related crashes all occurring o the "live side"?...
You caaan't trust the system... Maaan!

frank
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Re: Sept Airshow South side viewing

Post by frank »

frank wrote:I haven't got a ticket for Sunday and intend to make every effort to do so but intend to plan for failure.
PlanB is to view from the south side probably using the school for parking.
However I am slightly concerned that viewing south side may be prevented by increasing police presence etc.
Can anyone give an informed and upto date view of the situation and also what was the experience at FL

May I please ask that this thread is kept on topic and not distracted by the usual naughty field discussions that we have had and done to death.
I am asking for help and information from those in the know
I would be happy to receive pm's if that keeps this thread from growing to distraction

Kind regards Frank


Just a gentle reminder that the thread intention has gone way off topic.
Mods can we close it down please

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Rule 27
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Re: Sept Airshow South side viewing

Post by Rule 27 »

It's a discussion forum, discussions evolve. You just have to live with that.

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CJS
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Re: Sept Airshow South side viewing

Post by CJS »

If you posted it originally Frank you could always delete it.

Edit - actually I might be wrong. Just tried to delete one of mine and I couldn't work out how to. Ho hum...
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Georgeconna
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Re: Sept Airshow South side viewing

Post by Georgeconna »

cw318is wrote:Shall we add Geography to the list of things you don't know about but think you do?

CAP403 is a CAA publication, for the UK by the UK in the UK. Reno is in the US, so actually governed by the FAA and a completely different mandated waiver which makes the minimum distance from the crowd 500'. The Galloping Ghost tragedy wouldn't have happened on the CAA's watch.


yeah spot on the CAA would stop it full stop or have it take place in a remote island of the Scottish coast.
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Thoughtful_Flyer
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Re: Sept Airshow South side viewing

Post by Thoughtful_Flyer »

frank wrote:
Just a gentle reminder that the thread intention has gone way off topic.
Mods can we close it down please


So, because you made the first post you feel that you have a right to have dozens of others deleted?

Sorry but in my view that would be quite wrong. It is a discussion forum, I don't agree with many of the view expressed but I certainly defend the right of people to express them.

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Re: Sept Airshow South side viewing

Post by farnboroughrob »

on a slightly different topic what is the view like of the parked visiting aircraft from the southside? I am not a massive war bird fan but used to go to Legends throughout the 90's and early 2000's because the visiting aircraft were so interesting. I stopped when the prices started to go up and have not returned since. I would just like to be able to see the parked visitors without going into the show and then get off to Fowlmere and Cambridge for the rest. Nowt as strange as a spotter!

stuart n
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Re: Sept Airshow South side viewing

Post by stuart n »

These people seem to have found a new spot to view the Red Arrows display :whistle:

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capercaillie
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Re: Sept Airshow South side viewing

Post by capercaillie »

Georgeconna wrote:
cw318is wrote:Shall we add Geography to the list of things you don't know about but think you do?

CAP403 is a CAA publication, for the UK by the UK in the UK. Reno is in the US, so actually governed by the FAA and a completely different mandated waiver which makes the minimum distance from the crowd 500'. The Galloping Ghost tragedy wouldn't have happened on the CAA's watch.


yeah spot on the CAA would stop it full stop or have it take place in a remote island of the Scottish coast.


Actually statistically a far more dangerous location as the chances of a bird strike would be infinitely higher compared to a remote desert location. :whistle:

As for the gawping monkeys above in the motorway picture, words fail me. :wall:
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Orion
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Re: Sept Airshow South side viewing

Post by Orion »

I notice that there is a group of people in the Waddington area who are campaigning so as to prevent the resumption of the show there on the grounds of safety.

Regards

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Ian G
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Re: Sept Airshow South side viewing

Post by Ian G »

Again, another 'safety' notice for those thinking of popping over to the fields this year. If anyone tries, it will be interesting to find out how you get on.

In preparation for the 2015 air show season, IWM Duxford has some important safety information that it wishes to share with air show visitors and local residents.

IWM Duxford takes great care to ensure its air shows are as safe as possible for everyone involved.
It is not safe to occupy the fields immediately south of the runway during the air show. If you do so you are putting yourself and the display pilots in harm’s way.
In support of this, Grange Road will be closed on 23 and 24 May, 11 and 12 July and 19 and 20 September.
In the event of an incident it is imperative that the emergency services have clear, unhindered access to the tracks across this land.
There is no public access to these fields at any time.

Jointly issued by IWM Duxford, Cambridgeshire Constabulary and the landowners.
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Pen Pusher
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Re: Sept Airshow South side viewing

Post by Pen Pusher »

If they do get in the fields for the May and September show they should have a clear view as there is going to be no visiting aircraft parking south side where they usually do. They will be back for Legends though. That was the last plan I heard and Duxford based aircraft are being parked south side up by where the mound is. Probably spoil the view from there though. :whistle: :biggrin:

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