Anyone visit the naughty field today?

Re: Anyone visit the naughty field today?

Postby andygolfer on Sat 11 Jul 2015, 6:50 am

Pen Pusher wrote:
Ian G wrote:Are the fields still accessible then?


If you are worried then you can always pay and go in.

Brian


well put Brian, it always amazes me when a professional photographer (or amateur for that matter) with £1000s worth of gear doesn't want to part with a few quid extra to go into the show rather than sneak onto the fenced off fields.
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Re: Anyone visit the naughty field today?

Postby Thoughtful_Flyer on Sat 11 Jul 2015, 9:17 am

This has been done to death over the years.

As I understand it (and CAP 403 comes within a whisker of admitting) the police cannot remove people from the fields unless the land owner actually asks them to. As far as I'm aware this has never happened. Putting up fences therefore is either a back covering exercise on the part of the land owner or the IWM (or both) in the hope that, in the event of an accident, it will be seen as having taken reasonable precautions.

Ultimately it is the pilot's responsibility to reasonably satisfy himself that the flight can safely be made. If people are in harms way then whether they are there lawfully or not is totally irrelevant.

The only real answer would be for the IWM to lease or buy those fields so that they can control who has access to them. Then, and only then, would they be in a position to ask the police to remove any trespassers. However that would cost a significant amount of money so they will no doubt continue to fudge the issue and hope for the best.
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Re: Anyone visit the naughty field today?

Postby OldGit on Thu 16 Jul 2015, 8:57 am

I've been a regular visitor to Duxford air displays for the last few years and often wondered how people got to the mound opposite the airfield is it easy to access?
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Re: Anyone visit the naughty field today?

Postby pbeardmore on Thu 16 Jul 2015, 9:56 am

would not cost much to lease the fields just for the show days only?, lease drawn up in March once the dates were fixed, standard terms and conditions re museum not damaging crops etc, free cash for the farmer,
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Re: Anyone visit the naughty field today?

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Thu 16 Jul 2015, 10:31 am

Why would they want, or need to? They're just going through the motions to show that they're doing their best.

There have been photos from the field on this forum from both Duxford shows this year, so clearly it's all just for show, and in that circumstance, I'm sure goons in high viz jackets and fencing is already enough expense.

Amazes me that there's still people who think there's mileage in this debate on this forum. It is what it is now - if you can be bothered with the faff, then it's still accessible. If you can't, stay away or go elsewhere, as I did last weekend. Duxford gained nothing, Headcorn gained £30. Fences well worth the spend, then.
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Re: Anyone visit the naughty field today?

Postby Mattster256 on Thu 16 Jul 2015, 11:44 am

LN Strike Eagle wrote:Duxford gained nothing, Headcorn gained £30. Fences well worth the spend, then.


Do explain to me then, just what Duxford would have gained had you gone in the naughty rather than Headcorn, and therefore not paid anything to Duxford?
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Re: Anyone visit the naughty field today?

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Thu 16 Jul 2015, 12:21 pm

Mattster256 wrote:
LN Strike Eagle wrote:Duxford gained nothing, Headcorn gained £30. Fences well worth the spend, then.


Do explain to me then, just what Duxford would have gained had you gone in the naughty rather than Headcorn, and therefore not paid anything to Duxford?

Because originally it was a grand scheme to make the fields inaccessible attempt to get people go in to Duxford, rather than outside...

When it first started they made an effort to keep people out. As evidenced by the photos this year, it appears now to be just for show. How many customers has it gained them, vs the expense of jackets and fence hire?
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Re: Anyone visit the naughty field today?

Postby pbeardmore on Thu 16 Jul 2015, 12:56 pm

The discussion goes on because, at the heart of the debate, are the issues of safety and the financial income of airshows. What ever side of the argument you stand on, these are very much relevant to what we do etc so I think its fair that the debate continues.
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Re: Anyone visit the naughty field today?

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Thu 16 Jul 2015, 1:27 pm

pbeardmore wrote:The discussion goes on because, at the heart of the debate, are the issues of safety and the financial income of airshows. What ever side of the argument you stand on, these are very much relevant to what we do etc so I think its fair that the debate continues.

It's also applicable to more than just Duxford, although this debate seems not to be...
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Re: Anyone visit the naughty field today?

Postby Private Custard on Fri 17 Jul 2015, 5:28 pm

The police were removing people on the Saturday. Two of them walked in from their car and removed the people just inside the field, but didn't come any further. Later on, two motorcycle units rode into the field and removed more people from the same spot. They then sounded their sirens, which were ignored by those further in.

The simple facts are these,

Duxford had a massive crowd inside, so they got their money.
The school was packed, so they got a healthy cash injection to put towards the kids' school trips/library/playground equipment.
The police were generally ignored, they can't do anything legally anyway.
We got better photos.
I honestly don't care if a Mustang lands on my head!

The farmers don't seem to care, so that's that really.
Private Custard

Re: Anyone visit the naughty field today?

Postby iGol66 on Fri 17 Jul 2015, 5:45 pm

Private Custard wrote:We got better photos.


I always hear this, and then I look at photos from both outside and inside, and never see any differences between them.

Both inside and outside have good lighting in places, and bad lighting in others.
iGol66

Re: Anyone visit the naughty field today?

Postby Private Custard on Fri 17 Jul 2015, 5:48 pm

iGol66 wrote:
Private Custard wrote:We got better photos.


I always hear this, and then I look at photos from both outside and inside, and never see any differences between them.



Not sure if serious or just trolling!

:tongue:
Private Custard

Re: Anyone visit the naughty field today?

Postby Pen Pusher on Fri 17 Jul 2015, 7:39 pm

Private Custard wrote:I honestly don't care if a Mustang lands on my head!


Of course you wouldn't. You'd be dead.

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Re: Anyone visit the naughty field today?

Postby andygolfer on Sat 18 Jul 2015, 7:41 am

Private Custard wrote:The simple facts are these,

Duxford had a massive crowd inside, so they got their money.
The school was packed, so they got a healthy cash injection to put towards the kids' school trips/library/playground equipment.
The police were generally ignored, they can't do anything legally anyway.
We got better photos.
I honestly don't care if a Mustang lands on my head!

The farmers don't seem to care, so that's that really.


So if a pilot was in difficulty and needed to ditch his plane before baling out but saw you and stayed in to avoid killing you and died as a consequence you would feel okay about that then? Or alternatively if said pilot baled out and the mustang hit you on the head how would that pilot feel for the rest of his life wondering if he could have done something to avoid you - he probably has far more conscience than you after all!

You've probably got well in excess of £2.5k worth of gear yet refuse to buy a ticket for about £25 to support the event which is providing the photo opportunities that you are convinced are so much better - although I believe that is just an excuse to justify not paying, I've seen excellent photos taken inside and with the flightline walk, taxiing shots and picking the right location there is far more variety.

As has been said previously, the land owners and or display organisers need to show that they have taken reasonable precautions and I guess that legal advice has told them that their actions are sufficient.
One point which has never been bottomed out though - who actually puts up the fences, Duxford's contractors or the farmer/land owner? Also I am surprised that the farmer who owns or leases the mound area seems happy to have people there as he is condoning their presence and that probably does not fall within the 'reasonable precautions' remit. If he asks people to move and they politely tell his to sod off then he could probably argue that he has made a reasonable effort but some comments previously have suggested he's quite happy with the situation.
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Re: Anyone visit the naughty field today?

Postby Private Custard on Sat 18 Jul 2015, 8:21 am

Oh ffs, not this again!

Right, here's how it looks from above. We're the red dots. The blue bits are where we aren't.

Image

If the pilot has any level of control, that's a hell of a lot of field to land in. If he doesn't have control, he could come down anywhere. Statistically, you're far more likely to be killed if you're actually inside the show anyway. Go and have a look at the stats for airshow fatalities, I'll wait!

As for photos, meh. I've walked the flightline many times. I have the topsides from the M11 end and the panning takeoff shots from the Tank Bank. Sure there are shots you won't get from outside that you could from inside. But there are ten times as many if you look at it the other way around.

EDIT: And I am now officially done with this discussion. There are spectators outside at nearly every show, yet Duxford seems to be the only one with this level of debate going on. It baffles me, and in the end, is utterly pointless. No-one is changing their mind on this subject, so it's pointless to waste any more key-presses on it!
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