American Air Show 28-29 May

Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby Mooshie1956 on Tue 31 May 2016, 2:08 pm

Pen Pusher wrote:Just received an e-mail questionnaire from IWM Duxford....

We hope that you enjoyed your visit to The American Air Show.

We'd like to ask you a few quick questions about your day. Your feedback will help us plan for The Duxford Air Show: Meet the Fighters on Saturday 10 and Sunday 11 September 2016 and our 2017 air show programme.

As a thank you for your feedback, once you've submitted your response you'll see a discount code to enjoy 20% off books, DVDs, CDs, clothes or gifts at iwmshop.org.uk*


Mmmmmmm...... :heyhey: :biggrin:


Brian


Got mine as well. Had I got it Sunday I might have been very harsh with my comments. Now that I've had a few days to take in the day and think about things it might be a bit more constructive.
I'm beginning to wonder if Duxford and the pilots have been to over cautious in reacting to the new CAA rules, lets be honest if they broke them then Duxford as a venue could be lost and I'm sure no one wants to see that happen, least of all Duxford as I suspect it's a large chunk of the yearly income. Pilots I wonder if they to are over cautious as they won't want to lose their PDA's.
As I said after a few days to reflect on things, I'm going to be more than happy just to see how things go this year and hope we get back to a bit more of a dynamic display season next year. Lets let the show organisers and pilots figure things out over this year on how to give us a good display.
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Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby austinpj on Tue 31 May 2016, 2:52 pm

Further to my earlier e-mail, I got this back from IWM Duxford:-

Good Morning Phil,

Thank you for your e-mail.

There is a limit on car parking places available for the air show, so we are trying to encourage more guests to travel by public transport.

The money from the car park charge will support help to IWM in implementing new safety measures and providing additional staff in and around the site to make our visitors’ experience of the day as pleasurable as possible. Also, as you are most likely aware, since the tragic accident at Shoreham, insurance costs have become increasing high
so the money will also go towards helping us actually host the Air Show. The future of our Air shows rely on the continued support we have from our guests, especially since our Government funds have been cut once more.

As the traffic management went smoothly at the American air show, I would expect they will continue this for all future air shows.

With kind regards,
Laura


Discuss...
austinpj

Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby jalfrezi on Tue 31 May 2016, 2:56 pm

austinpj wrote:Further to my earlier e-mail, I got this back from IWM Duxford:-

Good Morning Phil,

Thank you for your e-mail.

There is a limit on car parking places available for the air show, so we are trying to encourage more guests to travel by public transport.

The money from the car park charge will support help to IWM in implementing new safety measures and providing additional staff in and around the site to make our visitors’ experience of the day as pleasurable as possible. Also, as you are most likely aware, since the tragic accident at Shoreham, insurance costs have become increasing high
so the money will also go towards helping us actually host the Air Show. The future of our Air shows rely on the continued support we have from our guests, especially since our Government funds have been cut once more.

As the traffic management went smoothly at the American air show, I would expect they will continue this for all future air shows.

With kind regards,
Laura


Discuss...


Ha ha, traffic management went smoothly because not many people went!
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Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby Mooshie1956 on Tue 31 May 2016, 3:02 pm

Filled my survey in, in the comments section said that I refused to buy a programme or take a flightline walk in protest, and would do so at future shows.
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Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby Tim N on Tue 31 May 2016, 3:02 pm

From my experience the traffic was totally hassle free , but I won't consider going by public transport.
Public transport obviously has its uses, going to an airshow isn't one of them, looking at other airshow goers I travel very light but I'd not want to take my gear on public transport.
I am quite happy to drive in and out easily and find a seat in the FoD area but the show hasn't a future with 'Mr and Mrs Joe Public ' staying away.
As for them blaming the government, does anyone seriously think possible future PM Jerry Corbyn will have the IWM at the top of his list for museum funding? He recoils every time a drone swats a member of ISIS.

Maybe the time is coming to say "it's been great, but I'm going to give airshows at Duxford a miss and concentrate on my own flying or get through the huge pile of aviation books and models I've accrued" :question:
Tim N

Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby Pen Pusher on Tue 31 May 2016, 4:52 pm

Posted on the Historic Aircraft Collection Facebook page -

It saddens me, and the rest of the team, that there are still a number of people who think it is their right and perfectly acceptable to view an Airshow from outside the event.

As operators of these machines, we need certain safety margins in place. One of these is a forced landing site. It may not always be possible to make the runway, and it is absolutely essential we avoid the gathered crowds on site. When people decide that they'd rather spectate from adjacent fields, it puts not only their lives at risk (however small a risk) but that of the pilots too. If an engine fails, I'll be looking for a site to land sharpish, and may not be in a position to land on the airfield. There are briefed sites around a display, these are the areas often occupied by non-paying spectators.

We really hope that all here are passionate enough about these machines to pay a ticket price to view them, as you keep them flying that way, but please, if you don't intend to pay, stay away! Another incident like Shoreham will see the end of the U.K. Airshow


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Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby WG655 on Tue 31 May 2016, 6:45 pm

jalfrezi wrote:
austinpj wrote:Further to my earlier e-mail, I got this back from IWM Duxford:-

Good Morning Phil,

Thank you for your e-mail.

There is a limit on car parking places available for the air show, so we are trying to encourage more guests to travel by public transport.

The money from the car park charge will support help to IWM in implementing new safety measures and providing additional staff in and around the site to make our visitors’ experience of the day as pleasurable as possible. Also, as you are most likely aware, since the tragic accident at Shoreham, insurance costs have become increasing high
so the money will also go towards helping us actually host the Air Show. The future of our Air shows rely on the continued support we have from our guests, especially since our Government funds have been cut once more.

As the traffic management went smoothly at the American air show, I would expect they will continue this for all future air shows.

With kind regards,
Laura


Discuss...


Ha ha, traffic management went smoothly because not many people went!


How true! Seems more like business speak on the part of IWM rather than anything genuinely constructive. 2 Lancs/big Spitfire shows aside, I don't think Duxford has ever had major issues with 'traffic management'? Even on relatively busy shows, the car park seems to clear fairly smoothly afterwards as its a fairly well-established system.

Would hope this and the advance ticket system are not continued for future airshows - unless IWM are prepared to admit their failings with these issues alongside the others reported over the weekend, and show evidence of taking customer feedback onboard, they're virtually digging their own grave as a sustainable airshow venue for the future.
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Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby TKK 140 on Tue 31 May 2016, 6:55 pm

1 to 2 hour waits in the car park used to a regular occurance at the western end. That is unacceptable.
Control of exiting traffic in the west car park was still an issue on Sunday.
TKK 140

Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby Tim N on Tue 31 May 2016, 10:12 pm

With all this talk of 'traffic management ' it makes me wonder how we used to manage during Mildenhall's heyday where almost half a million people would descend on the base over the weekend.
And The Air Fete was only discontinued due to the 'increased operational tempo' at the base.........(or worries the DoD may have had over who Uncle Tony was letting stay in the country, take your pick) not over traffic problems.

Going further back ,the original Air Tattoos at Greenham Common ,a place not exactly known for easy access , drew huge crowds as well.
Tim N

Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby rob68 on Tue 31 May 2016, 10:31 pm

You mean the traffic management guys who didn't walk the traffic into the next spot but kept standing rigidly to the spot? Filled in the questioanire btw
rob68

Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby phreakf4 on Tue 31 May 2016, 10:39 pm

Tim N wrote:With all this talk of 'traffic management ' it makes me wonder how we used to manage during Mildenhall's heyday where almost half a million people would descend on the base over the weekend.
And The Air Fete was only discontinued due to the 'increased operational tempo' at the base.........(or worries the DoD may have had over who Uncle Tony was letting stay in the country, take your pick) not over traffic problems.

Going further back ,the original Air Tattoos at Greenham Common ,a place not exactly known for easy access , drew huge crowds as well.


I well remember the traffic going to/from Mildenhall (which before the M3 and M25 were built took over 3 1/2 hours each way) and Greenham and even the early Fairford events. It was worse than anything ever seen at Duxford but perhaps back then most people didn't expect to be off-base in 5 minutes after the display. We didn't have the "I want it and I want it NOW" and "I have a right to get out before everyone else" attitudes which are now so common. In addition to that, if there were complaints, they appeared in the "special interest" magazines a month or two later as there was no internet on which grievances could be aired as soon as one arrived home (or now even from the car on the way home).

I have commented many times that it is a shame that patience, which used to be considered a virtue, is now thought of as a weakness.....
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Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby King Cobra on Tue 31 May 2016, 10:46 pm

TKK 140 wrote:1 to 2 hour waits in the car park used to a regular occurance at the western end. That is unacceptable.
Control of exiting traffic in the west car park was still an issue on Sunday.


We were in the western car park and exiting was no problem at all when we left just after the Osprey departed.
King Cobra

Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby Tim N on Tue 31 May 2016, 10:48 pm

phreakf4 wrote:
Tim N wrote:With all this talk of 'traffic management ' it makes me wonder how we used to manage during Mildenhall's heyday where almost half a million people would descend on the base over the weekend.
And The Air Fete was only discontinued due to the 'increased operational tempo' at the base.........(or worries the DoD may have had over who Uncle Tony was letting stay in the country, take your pick) not over traffic problems.

Going further back ,the original Air Tattoos at Greenham Common ,a place not exactly known for easy access , drew huge crowds as well.


I well remember the traffic going to/from Mildenhall (which before the M3 and M25 were built took over 3 1/2 hours each way) and Greenham and even the early Fairford events. It was worse than anything ever seen at Duxford but perhaps back then most people didn't expect to be off-base in 5 minutes after the display. We didn't have the "I want it and I want it NOW" and "I have a right to get out before everyone else" attitudes which are now so common. In addition to that, if there were complaints, they appeared in the "special interest" magazines a month or two later as there was no internet on which grievances could be aired as soon as one arrived home (or now even from the car on the way home).

I have commented many times that it is a shame that patience, which used to be considered a virtue, is now thought of as a weakness.....


After I wrote my last post and turned my attention to the Grumman Tigercat I am working on, I came to exactly the same conclusion as you to people's attitudes today.
Well said phreakf4 :clap:
Tim N

Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby st24 on Wed 01 Jun 2016, 9:36 am

phreakf4 wrote:
Tim N wrote:With all this talk of 'traffic management ' it makes me wonder how we used to manage during Mildenhall's heyday where almost half a million people would descend on the base over the weekend.
And The Air Fete was only discontinued due to the 'increased operational tempo' at the base.........(or worries the DoD may have had over who Uncle Tony was letting stay in the country, take your pick) not over traffic problems.

Going further back ,the original Air Tattoos at Greenham Common ,a place not exactly known for easy access , drew huge crowds as well.


I well remember the traffic going to/from Mildenhall (which before the M3 and M25 were built took over 3 1/2 hours each way) and Greenham and even the early Fairford events. It was worse than anything ever seen at Duxford but perhaps back then most people didn't expect to be off-base in 5 minutes after the display. We didn't have the "I want it and I want it NOW" and "I have a right to get out before everyone else" attitudes which are now so common. In addition to that, if there were complaints, they appeared in the "special interest" magazines a month or two later as there was no internet on which grievances could be aired as soon as one arrived home (or now even from the car on the way home).

I have commented many times that it is a shame that patience, which used to be considered a virtue, is now thought of as a weakness.....


Mr Nail, meet Mr Hammer. Perfectly summed up and something I was discussing recently with a certain zigzag and Dr cake. Pre-internet we just got on with it, yes it was annoying and frustrating and yes there were screaming kids and full bladders and hours wasted and cars over-heating but we got on with it. With social media so prevalent now, in seconds of Mr and Mrs/Mr&Mr/Mrs&Mrs 2.4 having to wait more than 5 minutes to move their shiny 4x4 so they as don't miss a second of the latest x factor update on their 60" curved plasma, they have tweeted expletive ridden rants direct to the organisers, their friends, families and pets saying how dare they and what a shambles and were do I sign up for a refund. As good as technological progress is (allegedly?!) modern society can't seem to adapt to anomalies or when things go awry like we used to.
Queueing to get in and out of airshows has been a fact of life since the 1920s, enter social mejia and it's completely unacceptable, organisers get chastised and we end up with ludicrous advance ticket only scenarios. Those luddites eh....
You caaan't trust the system... Maaan!
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Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby paullangford on Wed 01 Jun 2016, 10:21 am

Looks like free car parking for Legends then .......... :cuppa:
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Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby Tim N on Wed 01 Jun 2016, 12:40 pm

st24 wrote:
phreakf4 wrote:
Tim N wrote:With all this talk of 'traffic management ' it makes me wonder how we used to manage during Mildenhall's heyday where almost half a million people would descend on the base over the weekend.
And The Air Fete was only discontinued due to the 'increased operational tempo' at the base.........(or worries the DoD may have had over who Uncle Tony was letting stay in the country, take your pick) not over traffic problems.

Going further back ,the original Air Tattoos at Greenham Common ,a place not exactly known for easy access , drew huge crowds as well.


I well remember the traffic going to/from Mildenhall (which before the M3 and M25 were built took over 3 1/2 hours each way) and Greenham and even the early Fairford events. It was worse than anything ever seen at Duxford but perhaps back then most people didn't expect to be off-base in 5 minutes after the display. We didn't have the "I want it and I want it NOW" and "I have a right to get out before everyone else" attitudes which are now so common. In addition to that, if there were complaints, they appeared in the "special interest" magazines a month or two later as there was no internet on which grievances could be aired as soon as one arrived home (or now even from the car on the way home).

I have commented many times that it is a shame that patience, which used to be considered a virtue, is now thought of as a weakness.....


Mr Nail, meet Mr Hammer. Perfectly summed up and something I was discussing recently with a certain zigzag and Dr cake. Pre-internet we just got on with it, yes it was annoying and frustrating and yes there were screaming kids and full bladders and hours wasted and cars over-heating but we got on with it. With social media so prevalent now, in seconds of Mr and Mrs/Mr&Mr/Mrs&Mrs 2.4 having to wait more than 5 minutes to move their shiny 4x4 so they as don't miss a second of the latest x factor update on their 60" curved plasma, they have tweeted expletive ridden rants direct to the organisers, their friends, families and pets saying how dare they and what a shambles and were do I sign up for a refund. As good as technological progress is (allegedly?!) modern society can't seem to adapt to anomalies or when things go awry like we used to.
Queueing to get in and out of airshows has been a fact of life since the 1920s, enter social mejia and it's completely unacceptable, organisers get chastised and we end up with ludicrous advance ticket only scenarios. Those luddites eh....


One thing worth mentioning, at those shows the Mildys and the Greenhams we had seen a spectacular show with types that seem unbelievable now, this helped to take the sting out of sun stroke blighted delays in the car.
To be fair, no organiser can be really criticised for their line up in the 21st Century.

I enjoyed my day at Duxford over the weekend and appreciate the challenges they have regarding the flying display and risk assessments.
The advance ticket policy or the suggestion to go by public transport? Forget it ! It's not workable or customer friendly and the organisers will see continued low numbers. Oh and by the way, don't even think of putting tickets up to £50 to try and cover the shortfall by hitting the diehards!
Last edited by Tim N on Wed 01 Jun 2016, 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby Flyforfun on Wed 01 Jun 2016, 12:41 pm

I agree about the Internet, but also if people didn't come on forums like these you wouldn't know people are moaning :)
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Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby Jetnoise on Wed 01 Jun 2016, 6:58 pm

The money from the car park charge will support help to IWM in implementing new safety measures and providing additional staff in and around the site to make our visitors’ experience of the day as pleasurable as possible.


So, the extra charge for those that go in to the show pays for the restrictions and goons who prevent access to off-site areas. Bet that gives the regulars a nice warm feeling.

Cheers,
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Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby Mooshie1956 on Wed 01 Jun 2016, 7:37 pm

Jetnoise wrote:
The money from the car park charge will support help to IWM in implementing new safety measures and providing additional staff in and around the site to make our visitors’ experience of the day as pleasurable as possible.


So, the extra charge for those that go in to the show pays for the restrictions and goons who prevent access to off-site areas. Bet that gives the regulars a nice warm feeling.

Cheers,
Ralph



Well we could also say Cosford have put there prices up to cover the closure of the cricket club but I don't see anyone complaining there, or are they to frightened of the wrath. Last year the Cosford Club was around £52 if I remember correctly this year it's gone up to £60 and they certainly haven't pushed the boat out on acts this year to warrant the extra charge.
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Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby allan1958 on Thu 02 Jun 2016, 8:38 am

So, that was it?
Not exactly a brilliant show. Line up wasn't bad but not overwhelming. Some rather lacklustre flying although I don't know if this was a result of the Cancel All Aviation rules post Shoreham. Sedate passes and wingovers seemed to be the order of the day.Certainly, the endless succession of side on passes became a bit tedious after a while. I guess the more dynamic top side passes and looping manoeuvres are now deemed "too dangerous" and therefore no longer allowable? The whole event seemed rather tame and, though it pains me to say this I was actually becoming bored - especially after a succession of identical "tail chases" between the Buchons & P-51S. Distance wise, I did not see much difference . There were of course exceptions - notably the great display by the Bronco & Skyvan. I booked Silver passes for my partner & I for both days. I would certainly do that again - mainly because of the inconsiderate idiot - free viewing environment. Other points? Well, I don't consider car parking an issue as I don't have a car! Certainly, the free bus from Cambridge Station was handy. The catering was pretty poor and even more exorbitantly priced than before. I honestly wonder why more people do not bring their own food. £9.50 for a burger & chips??? Who is kidding who here! :lol:. I don't know if they are being charged more for their pitches but, there certainly seemed to be fewer catering outlets anyway. Certainly agree with other who say attendance seemed low although, whether the advance ticket only policy caused this is debatable. Certainly, I have no problem with this but, given that I have to travel from Edinburgh for the weekend I cannot really decide " on the day". Would I go back? Absolutely. Despite my reservations, my partner thoroughly enjoyed it as she enjoyed Flying Legends last year. We are already planning for September next year. I don't think Duxford is dead but, I hope the issues raised by myself and others are noted and acted on.

Allan
Last edited by allan1958 on Thu 02 Jun 2016, 4:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby AFC on Thu 02 Jun 2016, 1:32 pm

phreakf4 wrote:Second, the incessant carping over the price of tickets. Look around the internet at other outdoor (or indeed indoor events). Examples; on-the-gate Sunday race day ticket for BTCC at Brands Hatch £33, tickets for a music gig lasting around 2 hours; anything up to (and in some cases over) £100. Taking the family to Alton Towers (2 adults + 2 children, mid June so not at "peak" time) £122, The list could go on. Generally speaking he times of getting a day's entertainment for £10 are long gone...Which makes Abingdon such superb value.



I went to Snetterton last Sunday to watch the motorbikes racing, constant action from 9-5:30 all for £15 per ticket on the gate, add on £3 for the programme. Excellent value for money if you ask me. (I took around 5000 shots there, the day before at Duxford I took a mere 1000)
AFC

Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby aaron0288 on Thu 02 Jun 2016, 2:00 pm

It's often the case though that the smaller events make you feel like you've got more bang for your buck. I don't think you can compare Duxfords shows to a club meet at snetterton. To BSB/BTCC; yes.

For the past few years at BSB at Snet I've thought why do I bother? It's double the price to club meets, packed to the rafters with people and the racing is usually pants at the new layout with 20 - 30 minute gaps between races. Compare that to the club meets you mention AFC, where as you say you get some interesting machinery, 20+ races with no gaps and great racing, and a much more relaxed atmosphere.

I enjoyed an hour visit to Flixton the other week, where there were three fly pasts of the BBMF Spitfire and Hurricane, more than I did Duxford at the weekend. Of course that's not all Duxford's fault, but I think a lot of people just have to accept that the good ol' days of major airshows past have gone, and in terms of value for money, smaller events are the places to go now. It's tiring trying to justify to yourself that you'll enjoy it each time, when you know that forking out so much more money for an event that's no where near as good as it used to be will leave you feeling flat and deflated at the end of the day, and wondering why you bothered.

People have been making similar comments about Duxford for a while now and what I mentioned above is how I see things. It's admirable and a little sad at the same time. All I see are passionate air show goers who, understandably (me being one of them), miss how shows used to be.
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Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby vulcan558 on Thu 02 Jun 2016, 8:16 pm

AFC wrote:
phreakf4 wrote:Second, the incessant carping over the price of tickets. Look around the internet at other outdoor (or indeed indoor events). Examples; on-the-gate Sunday race day ticket for BTCC at Brands Hatch £33, tickets for a music gig lasting around 2 hours; anything up to (and in some cases over) £100. Taking the family to Alton Towers (2 adults + 2 children, mid June so not at "peak" time) £122, The list could go on. Generally speaking he times of getting a day's entertainment for £10 are long gone...Which makes Abingdon such superb value.

I went to Snetterton last Sunday to watch the motorbikes racing, constant action from 9-5:30 all for £15 per ticket on the gate, add on £3 for the programme. Excellent value for money if you ask me. (I took around 5000 shots there, the day before at Duxford I took a mere 1000)

Not many people pay those prices for places like Alton Towers, Drayton Manor etc. There are so many discount codes, vouchers, Tesco Club Card points, daily newspaper offers etc, the list is massive. You can halve that price for a family, so on a real level Duxford is very expensive, RIAT also.
Last edited by LN Strike Eagle on Thu 02 Jun 2016, 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby Flare Path on Thu 02 Jun 2016, 8:30 pm

vulcan558 wrote:
AFC wrote:
phreakf4 wrote:Second, the incessant carping over the price of tickets. Look around the internet at other outdoor (or indeed indoor events). Examples; on-the-gate Sunday race day ticket for BTCC at Brands Hatch £33, tickets for a music gig lasting around 2 hours; anything up to (and in some cases over) £100. Taking the family to Alton Towers (2 adults + 2 children, mid June so not at "peak" time) £122, The list could go on. Generally speaking he times of getting a day's entertainment for £10 are long gone...Which makes Abingdon such superb value.

I went to Snetterton last Sunday to watch the motorbikes racing, constant action from 9-5:30 all for £15 per ticket on the gate, add on £3 for the programme. Excellent value for money if you ask me. (I took around 5000 shots there, the day before at Duxford I took a mere 1000)

Not many people pay those prices for places like Alton Towers, Drayton Manor etc. There are so many discount codes, vouchers, Tesco Club Card points, daily newspaper offers etc, the list is massive. You can halve that price for a family, so on a real level Duxford is very expensive, RIAT also.

Newsflash: You have to pay to attend these events - they could be asking pennies and people on here would still moan.
Flare Path

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