American Air Show 28-29 May

Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby pbeardmore on Mon 30 May 2016, 4:16 pm

PR nightmare to let jo public have free say on your facebook page, great when a show is a hit but , boy, there are some unhappy campers and the photos/vids from the official source only confirm how empty it was.
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Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Mon 30 May 2016, 4:39 pm

pbeardmore wrote:PR nightmare to let jo public have free say on your facebook page, great when a show is a hit but , boy, there are some unhappy campers and the photos/vids from the official source only confirm how empty it was.


IWM should be commended for NOT censoring and deleting criticism.

But now they must take it on board.

It would be criminal to let Duxford die, especially with so many of the wounds (ticketing, parking, line-up) self-inflicted.
Dan O'Hagan

Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby Tim N on Mon 30 May 2016, 4:41 pm

pbeardmore wrote:PR nightmare to let jo public have free say on your facebook page, great when a show is a hit but , boy, there are some unhappy campers and the photos/vids from the official source only confirm how empty it was.

This happened with the first Biggin Hill Festival of Flight, the show was surprisingly good and that's coming from a regular Air Fair attendee like me , but the shambles to get out was absolutely shocking. We finally got out just before ten at night .
That night people took to the Facebook page to vent their fury on this with the great display passing unnoticed.

The IWM will say they want to canvass opinion but anyone could see all ticket policy was doomed.
The only shock I got was just HOW empty it was Sunday. :tumbleweed:
Tim N

Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby SuffolkBlue on Mon 30 May 2016, 4:48 pm

First of all, I'm a die hard Duxford supporter and it's a place which started my love affair of aviation (a Crunchie Stearman in the old Superhangar is one of my earliest childhood memories!), so I will always defend it, within reason.

Some of the criticism after the weekends show is over the top, but a few points were rightly raised to be questioned.

One for me is the flight line walk. If any changes can be improved at Duxford, this would be the easiest to start on. It's not so much the cost which bothers me, but with the shows becoming more predictable recently, there's only one or two aircraft on average which enthusiasts haven't snapped before. The Zero replica and Loach were the only aircraft on show which were new to me.

How hard would it be to have a couple of musuem exhibits out along the flightline?
Out of Airspace, realistically it's only the DH9 and Tornado that could just about be squeezed outside (would be a tricky job though). Having the Javelin or Mig 21 on the jet pan for the weekend and then mixing it up at the following show would make it much more appealing to us photographers who have never seen these aircraft in the light of day.
.
It's only a small thing, but at least it would show that the organisers are trying to think outside the box a bit.
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Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby TKK 140 on Mon 30 May 2016, 5:09 pm

I would imagine that Duxford have provisions i.e. cash reserves in place following bumper shows in recent years, so one show or more may not be a problem in the short term.

Next set of tickets are due to go up for sale on the 6th of June, so not long to find out.
TKK 140

Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby JonnyHerts on Mon 30 May 2016, 6:23 pm

My first-ever post to this Forum ...
I have to say I was slightly disappointed when I went on Saturday.

In the past, when planning on attending one of a two-day event I've let the weather 'on-the-day' influence which day. That's no longer possible now IWM Duxford have decreed advance tickets only. I don't like having an extra charge imposed for car parking either. Yes, I could use public transport but even travelling a comparatively short distance by train costs more than driving. I *could* drive past Duxford, to the Trumpington Park & Ride but that adds lots to my journey time.

I'm a 'Friend of Duxford' (FoD). Chatting to several others in our marquee I learned that the volunteers in the adjacent tent that since control of FoD passed from the Duxford Aviation Society to IWM they are no longer allowed to process membership renewals or to take in new members at shows - they have to tell people to either do it by phone or trudge a half mile or so to an office (I think in the museum shop). Similarly, we've always been able to make a voluntary donation for the tea, coffee, biscuits and soft drinks available in the FoD marquee. No longer. The volunteers feel aggrieved that IWM Duxford seems unwilling to trust them with money or explain the reason for changes.

FoD Volunteers I spoke with think (no-one in IWM seems to have actually said this) that the carpark charge and advance tickets-only comes from Cambridge Police, because roads including the M11 have been congested during events including, for example, the Canadian Lancaster visit. Maybe so but I've never heard this from official sources.

This is all apart from the display itself on Saturday. It was unfortunate that the weather forced the Patrouille de France into a 'flat' display (unsurprisingly, it was a super display anyway): other events seemed slow without any opportunity to see topside views of the aeroplanes. Around 15:00 it was sort-off announced there would be a break but no reason was given. Yes, we saw the KC135 as it made a single quite high pass in front of the crowd(!). I suspect the CAA's new post-Shoreham restrictions might explain a rather lack lustre show.

After some consideration I've decided to go to RIAT in July. I will probably go to Duxford again in the Autumn. However, if this is the new regime there I shall ace to consider next year whether to renew my FoD membership or let it go.
JonnyHerts

Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby WG655 on Mon 30 May 2016, 6:33 pm

Can't find some of the comments reported earlier... :whistle:
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Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby UKTopgun on Mon 30 May 2016, 6:46 pm

I am a FOD and have been going to DX shows for many years - almost every show for at least 15 years I would estimate, so I regard myself as a bit of a core customer airshow-wise. I have some observations on Saturday's show, and not many positive ones!

Pros
1. Large screens were a nice idea, they augmented the experience for me. They helped the narrative that IWM have been trying to develop on the last few shows. Nice to see the human stories behind the battle stories.
2. Ben Dunnell excellent on commentary (although he did make one or two mistakes during the day but I attributed that to an increased workload with having to build the AV into the commentary!) Overall great.
3. Windbreak/tent rule worked well although crowd was so thin I did not see many behind the line either!
Groups using red and white tape to form enclosures simply looked silly. No need for this.
4. Staying open a bit longer at end of flying. Nice to have the singers on after flying and nice not to feel they were chucking out at 5.30pm.

Cons (some literally)
1. All ticket system will not work with every standard show every year. Without a real star act such as 2 lanc s they were always going to struggle to sell out beforehand. They lost out on the crowd segment that decide about the show upon opening the curtains. Joe Public will not often want to risk advance booking an event that is weather dependent. DX just got cocky with the all ticket thing and it has come back to bite them.
2. 5 pound parking ticket. DX would have been better off building this into the main ticket price if they really felt they had to. A separate charge for something that regulars to these shows have been getting free for decades is psychologically damaging and was bound to create a heated response. Not as if space is limited esp north side.
Never recall north side car park so quiet as it was Sat.
3. Flight line walk. 6 pounds really pushing your luck for a line up so thin.
4. Mid display break. This seemed pointless, almost to balance out the fact it started half an hour earlier.
5. The thick family Robinson trying to go to the mound. Although it did not stop flying, can't see why IWM staff could not have anticipated this happening and had a car over there from the outset of the show to prevent this.
I saw the staff having to explain the closure to them in great depth, they seemed slow on the uptake and arrogantly loitered for a good 15 mins after being told to go away.
To be fair the fields themselves were totally deserted so the ban worked from that perspective.
6. IWM catering. We know how poor the commercial food is at DX, this year seemed no better and if anything more expensive than last. Seemed to be new suppliers too.
IWM catering has deteriorated too. Gone is the simple cafe serving popular English breakfast. We now have a poor man's Costa coffee, no full English anymore. And in the Workshop (formerly Wing Co Joe's) we had waffles and maple syrup or some such thing. The place was empty indicating nobody wanted this.
Please DX, I don't know if the American style breakfast was linked to the show theme or not, but bring back breakfasts people want!
7. I was never a huge fan of all boom and zoom warbirds displays a la Stephen Grey, but they were largely gone from this show, replaced by wing overs. Was this down to new regs I wonder? Think even the BBMF spit looped, so why not the home team corsair etc?

Summary
I am a big fan of DX and want the shows there to thrive, but if things carry on like this they will really struggle in the future. They need to address the issues mentioned, and fast. It would be good to get some response from the organisers perhaps on these pages as to how they are going to put things right, or they risk alienating many core customers and that would throw doubt onto shows there in the future. They have all the ingredients for fantastic shows there but they have taken their eye off the ball in my view. Get back to basics, varied flying with value for money services like catering. It is not too late, but it could soon be!
UKTopgun
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Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby Tim N on Mon 30 May 2016, 7:51 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
pbeardmore wrote:PR nightmare to let jo public have free say on your facebook page, great when a show is a hit but , boy, there are some unhappy campers and the photos/vids from the official source only confirm how empty it was.


IWM should be commended for NOT censoring and deleting criticism.

But now they must take it on board.

It would be criminal to let Duxford die, especially with so many of the wounds (ticketing, parking, line-up) self-inflicted.


Absolutely spot on, if Shoreham had never happened we would have still had the low crowd scenario we witnessed over the weekend, okay maybe a few hundred extra photographers but still a poor crowd.
I would have thought that if Cambs Police were behind the request to go all ticket that the IWM Duxford would or should have released a statement to that effect when this policy was first announced.
Tim N

Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby Danny boy on Mon 30 May 2016, 8:29 pm

Bit surprised by all the doom mongering here, I was there on Sunday and had fun, decent crowd and the majority seemed to enjoy it. There are improvements to be made for sure, but honestly, I'll be back!
Danny boy

Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby Airshowhammer on Mon 30 May 2016, 9:29 pm

If it wasn't for the museum, would people still be happy with what was on offer?
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Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby JJC on Mon 30 May 2016, 11:20 pm

Airshowhammer wrote:If it wasn't for the museum, would people still be happy with what was on offer?


If you took the price of museum entrance on a normal day away from the airshow ticket price, then yes - very...
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Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby paullangford on Tue 31 May 2016, 8:27 am

"An unmitigated disaster ?"......no.....not in my opinion after going in on Sunday.

Sure, some things could have been handled better, but like every other show organiser this year, they've had new challenges to meet, so they're trying new things.
Some things have worked, some things haven't, for what it's worth here's my insights.

I didn't go into the show Saturday, but there seemed to be the usual numbers of people in for a Sunday Spring Airshow, which was great.
Locking the ground level access doors to the toilets at the Land Warfare Hall was ............just stupid. I saw many an OAP having to walk up the grassy sides onto the long ramp to go into the museum to go down the stairs, & then to come back up on the stairs to go down the ramp......why ?
The days of aircraft arcing downwards towards the tank bank or the M11 end....are over it seems..............not too sure why.
The centreline of the display has definitely moved westwards, being more at the American Air Museum than the VC10.
I was positioned at the tank bank end, and from the first few displays it became apparent that if you were down at the M11 end.............you're not part of the show, not a lot was happening that end.
If the rumour is true and there is no tank bank end for 'Legends'......so.......where to go?
Advanced ticket sales........why ?.......did it get me in any quicker ?........not in the slightest. I can only assume it's so that they don't get a scenario from past experiences, that if the airfield reaches capacity and people get turned away, then those people won't go to the surrounding area to watch from the outside.
Car Parking fee of £5.00................why ?..............I can only assume it's to pay for fences and road closure notices and high vis security people.
The flight line walk seems to be increasing by a £1.00 a year on average......£6.00 this year........thank god the yanks were there with an Osprey you could walk into.......otherwise....I felt a bit ripped off, I can't think of another airshow where I pay to look at the aircraft on the ground, that I've already paid for.
Was it an "American Airshow ?".............no................a "Spring Airshow"............yes.
Aircraft displaying further away ?............yes.........a bit worse for photography ?...........yes............impossible for photography...........no, did it spoil watching the show ?............not really.
Did the displaying seem more lethargic, less exciting ?.................yes...............why ?
The white line of doom for windbreaks, did it work ?..........yes........was there a viewing problem before this..............I don't think so, as there is black netting on the fence anyway, and people stand up.
The large TV screens were a really great idea, especially with the voice overs, mini documentaries, Band of Brothers theme...............inspired, brilliant.
The Bronco and Skyvan double act, The Reds, Typhoon, BBMF, & double C47 landings were the highlights for me............the rest were forgettable.
The most expensive Duxford so far....was it the best ?..........no......was it just ok ?....yes.
Will we be going the Legends ?............no, because it's on the same time as RIAT............sigh (bangs head on table).

There have been quite a few shows that have cancelled this year, Duxford could have quite easily done the same, they haven't, they're giving it a go in very difficult circumstances and should be applauded in my opinion.....and supported. They WILL make mistakes, and in my opinion they have made a couple of biggies this time, but hopefully they'll listen to the criticism and address some of these, and they must be given a chance to do that.

I went in with a group of photographers, aviation enthusiasts, and some people that had never been to an airshow before. Did we experience an unmitigated disaster ?...............no, not in the slightest..............are we giving Duxford another chance ?..................sure.
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Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby Tim N on Tue 31 May 2016, 9:16 am

A very fair assessment there Paul :clap:

I recovered the car park charge by giving the flight line walk a miss, wish I'd done the same with the airshow programme ! I never learn, the only Duxford programme worth buying is the Legends one especially if Stephen Grey has provided an article, the May and September show programmes are pretty hit and miss and I've not looked at mine again since my initial flick through during lunch.
Tim N

Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby paullangford on Tue 31 May 2016, 9:28 am

Tim N wrote:A very fair assessment there Paul :clap:

I recovered the car park charge by giving the flight line walk a miss, wish I'd done the same with the airshow programme ! I never learn, the only Duxford programme worth buying is the Legends one especially if Stephen Grey has provided an article, the May and September show programmes are pretty hit and miss and I've not looked at mine again since my initial flick through during lunch.


Thanks Tim, it's just my opinion on how I experienced the day.................and it wasn't a bad day.
I view all of this experience as a privilege.....regardless.
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Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby phreakf4 on Tue 31 May 2016, 10:06 am

paullangford wrote:...Car Parking fee of £5.00................why ?..............I can only assume it's to pay for fences and road closure notices and high vis security people....


A good point. These measures have to be paid for somehow. However it seems to me that raising the extra finance from drivers only is unfair. By all means issue car passes as it is a fact that parking space is far more a limiting factor at Duxford than pedestrian numbers. Other events also issue car passes but make no charge, saying that, amongst other things, it allows the gate marshals to be sure that the cars entering are occupied by actual ticket holders. The car passes could be limited but free of charge and the extra finance raised by a small increase in ticket prices which would be far less unpopular (though still unwelcome).

Two other points; first it seems ironic to me that some are claiming to "support" and "defend" air shows by refusing to attend and encouraging others to do likewise. Just how a reduction in "footfall" is supposed to help the future of air shows escapes me...

Second, the incessant carping over the price of tickets. Look around the internet at other outdoor (or indeed indoor events). Examples; on-the-gate Sunday race day ticket for BTCC at Brands Hatch £33, tickets for a music gig lasting around 2 hours; anything up to (and in some cases over) £100. Taking the family to Alton Towers (2 adults + 2 children, mid June so not at "peak" time) £122, The list could go on. Generally speaking he times of getting a day's entertainment for £10 are long gone...Which makes Abingdon such superb value.
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Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Tue 31 May 2016, 10:30 am

Two other points; first it seems ironic to me that some are claiming to "support" and "defend" air shows by refusing to attend and encouraging others to do likewise. Just how a reduction in "footfall" is supposed to help the future of air shows escapes me...


OK, I'll bite.

If you noticed the feedback to the recent Shuttleworth show, you'll notice how nobody had anything but sympathy for the venue. The Collection did all they could.

Compare that to Duxford, who have made changes they didn't need to that, on the face of it, have nothing to do with safety. Parking fee and advance ticketing. Why should we encourage support for a venue that doesn't choose to help itself? Self-inflicted damage can not be supported. A venue hamstrung by the CAA can.

Are you quite clear on that?
Dan O'Hagan

Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby Stagger2 on Tue 31 May 2016, 11:13 am

Just to be Ultra-Clear on the issue of attending air-shows post-Shoreham, I believe it's a personal decision based on the enjoyment experience derived.
Unlike a dose of diarrhoea, which nobody enjoys, BUT can't stop. I CAN choose not to endure the crock of you-know-what Duxford is serving-up at any price!
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Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby cuban8 on Tue 31 May 2016, 11:49 am

Just a few bullet points from me

Advance ticketing for 'regular events' is unnecessary and is a shot in the foot for IWM - fair enough for shows with high profile acts, nobody wants to see the traffic chaos and 'punch ups' reported at park and ride last time.

Why were on-line tickets unavailable after midnight on Friday, when they were clearly not sold out judging by the weekend's attendance?

We went on Saturday and had a very pleasant day, as always, in the FoD enclosure - many thanks again to the volunteers for their efforts and time.

CAA regs clearly had an impact on the show - the warbirds seemed rather stilted, so hopefully given time and no further incidents, these will be relaxed.

For an American themed show there wasn't that much American content.

Duxford need to watch the value for money they're offering. Over-priced food, car park charge, expensive Ice creams from the vendors and daft prices for the souvenirs sold in the museum shops reflects very badly on them.

Hopefully this weekend's airshow will be viewed as an experiment and IWM will take on board the comments and criticisms aired here and elsewhere.
cuban8

Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby Mattster256 on Tue 31 May 2016, 12:14 pm

There's some utterly ridiculous and dumbfounding comments on this thread that are completely baffling me, but the most baffling is that there was not much American content for an American Air Show?! This simply is not true!

1. Se5a's and Dr1 representing the American pilots who flew in WW1, one of the Se5a's actually wears an American scheme

2. 3x Harvard, Stearman and Ryan STA. Please tell me I don't need to explain this one...

3. Spitfire Mk.1, Spitfire Mk.V and Hurricane, aircraft all used by the American eagle squadrons which flew in the early years of WW2 and were the first Americans to join the aerial fight in WW2.

4. B-17, TF-51D, P-51D and Buchon x2. Again, please god don't make me explain this one.

5. Piper L4 Cub, couldn't be more appropriate.

6. 2x C-47 probably the most American WW2 aircraft there is along with the B-17 and P-51.

7. Zero replica, P-40C, Wildcat, Corsair, Hawk 75. All American types representing the pacific conflict, and while the Wildcat and Hawk 75 don't wear American colours, they're still massively important types in the history of American air combat, indeed the non export version of the Hawk 75 (P-36) was stationed at Peral Harbour during the attacks and some even got airborne! The Hawk 75 does however wear the colours of the Lafayette Squadron which comprised mainly American pilots flying for the French Air Force.

8. DHC Beaver, a type operated by the US Air Force and US Army.

9. T-28, Huey, Loach, Skyvan and Bronco...Vietnam...need I say more?

10. KC-135 and static Osprey...

11. Apache, American built and a type operated by the Americans.

12. LeVier Cosmic Wind, and American built racing aircraft.

13. Dragon Rapide, a type operated by the USAAF in WW2.

This leaves The Reds, The PDF, EF Typhoon, The Matadors and BBMF fighters as the only aircraft not directly relating to the American theme. And even then, you could argue that the BBMF Fighters represent the American fliers who flew and fell during the Battle Of Britain and The PDF who represent the ever present link to the American aircraft they flew in the early years of WW2 and the Lafayette squadrons who flew for them.

All of these links were made throughout the show over commentary and with video and audio.

American enough for you?
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Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby paullangford on Tue 31 May 2016, 12:42 pm

Mattster256 wrote:There's some utterly ridiculous and dumbfounding comments on this thread that are completely baffling me, but the most baffling is that there was not much American content for an American Air Show?! This simply is not true!

1. Se5a's and Dr1 representing the American pilots who flew in WW1, one of the Se5a's actually wears an American scheme

2. 3x Harvard, Stearman and Ryan STA. Please tell me I don't need to explain this one...

3. Spitfire Mk.1, Spitfire Mk.V and Hurricane, aircraft all used by the American eagle squadrons which flew in the early years of WW2 and were the first Americans to join the aerial fight in WW2.

4. B-17, TF-51D, P-51D and Buchon x2. Again, please god don't make me explain this one.

5. Piper L4 Cub, couldn't be more appropriate.

6. 2x C-47 probably the most American WW2 aircraft there is along with the B-17 and P-51.

7. Zero replica, P-40C, Wildcat, Corsair, Hawk 75. All American types representing the pacific conflict, and while the Wildcat and Hawk 75 don't wear American colours, they're still massively important types in the history of American air combat, indeed the non export version of the Hawk 75 (P-36) was stationed at Peral Harbour during the attacks and some even got airborne! The Hawk 75 does however wear the colours of the Lafayette Squadron which comprised mainly American pilots flying for the French Air Force.

8. DHC Beaver, a type operated by the US Air Force and US Army.

9. T-28, Huey, Loach, Skyvan and Bronco...Vietnam...need I say more?

10. KC-135 and static Osprey...

11. Apache, American built and a type operated by the Americans.

12. LeVier Cosmic Wind, and American built racing aircraft.

This leaves The Reds, The PDF, EF Typhoon, The Matadors, Rapide and BBMF fighters as the only aircraft not directly relating to the American theme. And even then, you could argue that the BBMF Fighters represent the American fliers who flew and fell during the Battle Of Britain and The PDF who represent the ever present link to the American aircraft they flew in the early years of WW2 and the Lafayette squadrons who flew for them.

All of these links were made throughout the show over commentary and with video and audio.

American enough for you?


I understand what you're saying above, but I can only explain to you the confusion I got from the non enthusiasts around me on the day.
I had to explain to them some of the not so very clear links included in the day (i.e. Spitfires = Eagle squadrons etc), I think it needed to be a bit more obvious.
I understand perfectly why there's the links you've explained above, but for a non enthusiast it was confusing.
We also didn't have the inclusion of the Hellcat, Bearcat, B25 Mitchell, A26 Invader, Skyraiders etc, and we needed more Mustangs for an epic tailchase........which Duxford is famous for............in my opinion.
Here's our angle on the day, maybe we were hoping for an ALL American Airshow..........which it wasn't.
It became even more confusing when you throw in The Reds, The PDF, EF Typhoon, The Matadors, Rapide and BBMF into the mix..............who aren't American, which I had to explain further....and then gave up.

........still, they got our money, & we had a nice day :icecream:
........and weirdly, I just received an email from the IWM asking for some feedback, which I will give in a nice and considerate but also constructive manner :cuppa:
Last edited by paullangford on Tue 31 May 2016, 1:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby Pen Pusher on Tue 31 May 2016, 1:38 pm

Just received an e-mail questionnaire from IWM Duxford....

We hope that you enjoyed your visit to The American Air Show.

We'd like to ask you a few quick questions about your day. Your feedback will help us plan for The Duxford Air Show: Meet the Fighters on Saturday 10 and Sunday 11 September 2016 and our 2017 air show programme.

As a thank you for your feedback, once you've submitted your response you'll see a discount code to enjoy 20% off books, DVDs, CDs, clothes or gifts at iwmshop.org.uk*


Mmmmmmm...... :heyhey: :biggrin:


Brian
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Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby paullangford on Tue 31 May 2016, 1:49 pm

Pen Pusher wrote:Just received an e-mail questionnaire from IWM Duxford....

We hope that you enjoyed your visit to The American Air Show.

We'd like to ask you a few quick questions about your day. Your feedback will help us plan for The Duxford Air Show: Meet the Fighters on Saturday 10 and Sunday 11 September 2016 and our 2017 air show programme.

As a thank you for your feedback, once you've submitted your response you'll see a discount code to enjoy 20% off books, DVDs, CDs, clothes or gifts at iwmshop.org.uk*


Mmmmmmm...... :heyhey: :biggrin:


Brian


............I needed a bit more than 50 words at the end to communicate my constructive criticism :oops:
but....the IWM being pro-active is a good thing :up:
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Re: American Air Show 28-29 May

Postby Pen Pusher on Tue 31 May 2016, 1:54 pm

I just repeated 'End advanced tickets only/car parking charge'

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