No access to the "Tank Bank"?

Re: No access to the "Tank Bank"?

Postby Dragon Rapide on Tue 21 Jun 2016, 3:54 pm

An excellent analysis by Elliott Marsh! In some ways I don't regret my enforced reduction in air show attendance in view of all of the above. I still have dozens of Legends to remember from a variety of viewing positions - the Tankbank experiences being the most memorable!
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Re: No access to the "Tank Bank"?

Postby pbeardmore on Tue 21 Jun 2016, 4:01 pm

Yes, we are the lucky ones but there is a new generation of fans who can only stand on the tank bank on non-airshow days and try to imagine how fantastic it must have been.

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Re: No access to the "Tank Bank"?

Postby southyorkshireman on Tue 21 Jun 2016, 6:18 pm

Hard to tell based on the diagrams, but does the move at the east end affect the aircraft parking on the hard standing?
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Re: No access to the "Tank Bank"?

Postby paullangford on Tue 21 Jun 2016, 8:33 pm

I actually feel quite sorry for Duxford on this, their hands are tied by the CAA and they're probably dealing with totally risk averse insurance companies who rule the roost as much as the CAA.
I'm sure the pilots and the organisers are just as frustrated as we all are, but as a major venue they will be under the microscope, especially from the press.
Sure they made some mistakes at the American Airshow, it was their first time with the new regs, but IMHO it wasn't a fiasco, it was still a good day out.
If I wasn't going to RIAT, I would be going.................but there lies another rub...............they're both on at the same time...........why ?
Old Warden seem to have got to grips with the new regs better, and put on a good show, I'm sure Duxford will have looked at why that is, and I'm sure they'll learn and come good.
In any relationship you've gotta take the rough with the smooth, and thankfully for us they're putting on airshows this year in a very difficult period, and I'm happy they are. :cuppa:
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Re: No access to the "Tank Bank"?

Postby rdchawk on Tue 21 Jun 2016, 9:08 pm

paullangford wrote:I actually feel quite sorry for Duxford on this, their hands are tied by the CAA and they're probably dealing with totally risk averse insurance companies who rule the roost as much as the CAA.
I'm sure the pilots and the organisers are just as frustrated as we all are, but as a major venue they will be under the microscope, especially from the press.
Sure they made some mistakes at the American Airshow, it was their first time with the new regs, but IMHO it wasn't a fiasco, it was still a good day out.
If I wasn't going to RIAT, I would be going.................but there lies another rub...............they're both on at the same time...........why ?
Old Warden seem to have got to grips with the new regs better, and put on a good show, I'm sure Duxford will have looked at why that is, and I'm sure they'll learn and come good.
In any relationship you've gotta take the rough with the smooth, and thankfully for us they're putting on airshows this year in a very difficult period, and I'm happy they are. :cuppa:


But as per the release from Duxford, this change is not because of CAA rules.
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Re: No access to the "Tank Bank"?

Postby paullangford on Tue 21 Jun 2016, 9:26 pm

rdchawk wrote:
paullangford wrote:I actually feel quite sorry for Duxford on this, their hands are tied by the CAA and they're probably dealing with totally risk averse insurance companies who rule the roost as much as the CAA.
I'm sure the pilots and the organisers are just as frustrated as we all are, but as a major venue they will be under the microscope, especially from the press.
Sure they made some mistakes at the American Airshow, it was their first time with the new regs, but IMHO it wasn't a fiasco, it was still a good day out.
If I wasn't going to RIAT, I would be going.................but there lies another rub...............they're both on at the same time...........why ?
Old Warden seem to have got to grips with the new regs better, and put on a good show, I'm sure Duxford will have looked at why that is, and I'm sure they'll learn and come good.
In any relationship you've gotta take the rough with the smooth, and thankfully for us they're putting on airshows this year in a very difficult period, and I'm happy they are. :cuppa:


But as per the release from Duxford, this change is not because of CAA rules.


Ah............thanks for pointing that out rdchawk, I should have read the release instead of the posts above then........I'm a naughty boy :oops:
...........in that case then..........it's a outrage ! :mad: :lol:
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Re: No access to the "Tank Bank"?

Postby pb643 on Tue 21 Jun 2016, 9:45 pm

rdchawk wrote:
paullangford wrote:I actually feel quite sorry for Duxford on this, their hands are tied by the CAA and they're probably dealing with totally risk averse insurance companies who rule the roost as much as the CAA.
I'm sure the pilots and the organisers are just as frustrated as we all are, but as a major venue they will be under the microscope, especially from the press.
Sure they made some mistakes at the American Airshow, it was their first time with the new regs, but IMHO it wasn't a fiasco, it was still a good day out.
If I wasn't going to RIAT, I would be going.................but there lies another rub...............they're both on at the same time...........why ?
Old Warden seem to have got to grips with the new regs better, and put on a good show, I'm sure Duxford will have looked at why that is, and I'm sure they'll learn and come good.
In any relationship you've gotta take the rough with the smooth, and thankfully for us they're putting on airshows this year in a very difficult period, and I'm happy they are. :cuppa:


But as per the release from Duxford, this change is not because of CAA rules.


Yes it is!

Where does it say in the press release that the changes have been made for any other reason than updated CAA regulations?

The decision that TFC and IWM have made is how to best to interpret and meet those new regulations, whilst still giving the best experience to the audience. Consequently they have chosen to straighten the crowd line, rather than moving the display line back some considerable distance to meet the regulations.
Last edited by pb643 on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No access to the "Tank Bank"?

Postby rdchawk on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 6:40 am

Pen Pusher wrote:Posted on Legends Facebook
Important announcement from The Fighter Collection.

This year, air shows around the UK including the Flying Legends Air Show, have been subject to additional regulations regarding flying display permissions.

To enhance your visitor experience at this year’s Flying Legends Air Show, run by The Fighter Collection, we will be moving the crowdline forward in the central area of the museum site.

To achieve this increased capacity in the central viewing area, we have had to make some difficult decisions, which has ultimately led to the Land Warfare end of the site not being a permitted viewing area from Wednesday 6 July onwards and for the entire weekend of the Flying Legends Air Show.

There will be a small amount of sterile car parking which will be clearly designated. For safety reasons, visitors won't be able to return to their cars in this area until after the flying display has concluded. Please assist us by complying with instructions from staff at the air show.

We hope that you’ll understand the reasons behind these changes and we trust you will have an enjoyable Flying Legends Air Show.

Maps of the public layout will be posted soon.


https://www.facebook.com/pages/Flying-L ... 1495683255

Brian


Doesn't mention CAA. If it was because of CAA regs then why not have this for the May show??
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Re: No access to the "Tank Bank"?

Postby DaveBr on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 6:59 am

Is it really that difficult to comprehend?

The regulations aren't changing anytime soon so the options are a) continue as at the May show with the original crowd line or b) straighten the crowd line in order to bring the displays closer.

The part I'm struggling to comprehend is that most here condemned the displays in May as too distant, lacking impact, excitement, etc. Now that TFC/IWM are trying to make a positive change to make the regulations work better for the site people are equally outraged about change.

Other than the odd occasion when I've been working live side I have never watched a Duxford display from anywhere other than the tank bank, so that's most shows for the last 15 years - I am fully aware of what is being lost. TFC/IWM believe they can improve the show by changing the crowd line. I believe they know what they're doing so I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and give it a try.
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Re: No access to the "Tank Bank"?

Postby HuwJHopkins on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 7:53 am

Dan O'Hagan wrote:Elliott's nailed it with his GAR editorial.

Duxford's reputation as an airshow venue took an almighty, and deserved, pounding after the May fiasco. Closing the only decent position within the showground is another, massive body-blow. They lost the enthusiasts in May, and peed-off the families. This only further alienates their most loyal rain-or-shine customers.

Whether it's entirely self-inflicted this time, is not fully clear.


Come on, Dan, this is more than a tad contradictory isn't it!? If you think the criticism post-May show was justified regarding the venue (not that you saw for yourself!), how can you not see that these changes allowing the more typical Legends displays, the show's trademark, to continue is a positive thing and still blindly bury the hatchet into Duxford. Vendettas never die I suppose!

This is exactly the kind of thing we don't need right now.
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Re: No access to the "Tank Bank"?

Postby Slappywag on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 8:12 am

Duxford has been on its arse for some time now, especially Legends.

Recycled line-ups, increase in costs for inferior product, neutering of spectator areas etc etc.

Time to put the old dog down, than suffer to the end.
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Re: No access to the "Tank Bank"?

Postby pb643 on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 8:12 am

rdchawk wrote:
Pen Pusher wrote:Posted on Legends Facebook
Important announcement from The Fighter Collection.

This year, air shows around the UK including the Flying Legends Air Show, have been subject to additional regulations regarding flying display permissions.

To enhance your visitor experience at this year’s Flying Legends Air Show, run by The Fighter Collection, we will be moving the crowdline forward in the central area of the museum site.

To achieve this increased capacity in the central viewing area, we have had to make some difficult decisions, which has ultimately led to the Land Warfare end of the site not being a permitted viewing area from Wednesday 6 July onwards and for the entire weekend of the Flying Legends Air Show.

There will be a small amount of sterile car parking which will be clearly designated. For safety reasons, visitors won't be able to return to their cars in this area until after the flying display has concluded. Please assist us by complying with instructions from staff at the air show.

We hope that you’ll understand the reasons behind these changes and we trust you will have an enjoyable Flying Legends Air Show.

Maps of the public layout will be posted soon.


https://www.facebook.com/pages/Flying-L ... 1495683255

Brian


Doesn't mention CAA. If it was because of CAA regs then why not have this for the May show??


As mentioned earlier in the thread, it is the CAA who regulate airshows.

I think that in reading this release and comparing Legends to the May show you are making a mistake. The press release is from TFC, not IWM and so the changes referred to, are compared with last years Legends and not the May show. The shows are planned by different organisers. TFC not IWM.

As has already been mentioned, Legends makes far greater use of the grass for movements than most other Duxford shows, this could be one of the reasons TFC are going for a different layout.

It will be interesting to see which layout IWM opt for in September.

Phil
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Re: No access to the "Tank Bank"?

Postby HuwJHopkins on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 8:35 am

Slappywag wrote:Duxford has been on its arse for some time now, especially Legends.

Recycled line-ups, increase in costs for inferior product, neutering of spectator areas etc etc.

Time to put the old dog down, than suffer to the end.


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Re: No access to the "Tank Bank"?

Postby hmeasures on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 9:05 am

Slappywag wrote:Duxford has been on its arse for some time now, especially Legends.

Recycled line-ups, increase in costs for inferior product, neutering of spectator areas etc etc.

Time to put the old dog down, than suffer to the end.


Yup, legends is so on its arse, in fact, in the last few years we've only seen;

The first 4 ship of hawker biplanes in God knows how long
The first 4 ship of Mki spits in God knows how long
The first UK (and probably only) appearance of the P26
The UK debut of the P40C
The UK debut of the P36C
The only place on earth you'll likely see two P36 variants flying together
The first 2 ship of Gladiators in God knows how long
The debut of the Seafire 3
The Hellcat making a welcome return the scene
Plus whatever else I've missed...

Along with being the only place in Europe to see the horsemen, one of the few places in the UK to see the Red Bull trio, and the only place in the UK to see many of Europe's warbirds.

But yeah, I suppose if you've already collected the serial numbers of most of the aircraft you might be disappointed that only one or two new warbirds are unveiled every year :roll:

Probably still a few surprises to come this year too.
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Re: No access to the "Tank Bank"?

Postby Slappywag on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 9:20 am

hmeasures wrote:
Slappywag wrote:Duxford has been on its arse for some time now, especially Legends.

Recycled line-ups, increase in costs for inferior product, neutering of spectator areas etc etc.

Time to put the old dog down, than suffer to the end.


Yup, legends is so on its arse, in fact, in the last few years we've only seen;

The first 4 ship of hawker biplanes in God knows how long
The first 4 ship of Mki spits in God knows how long
The first UK (and probably only) appearance of the P26
The UK debut of the P40C
The UK debut of the P36C
The only place on earth you'll likely see two P36 variants flying together
The first 2 ship of Gladiators in God knows how long
The debut of the Seafire 3
The Hellcat making a welcome return the scene
Plus whatever else I've missed...

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Re: No access to the "Tank Bank"?

Postby HuwJHopkins on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 9:29 am

:grin: :grin: :grin:

I really cannot comprehend how you think all of that is boring, pointless and worthy of taking up tiddlywinks instead of. Unless you are just trolling for the sake of it.

So, I ask you this, give me an actual example of what you would like to see at Flying Legends? I really am interested to know.
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Re: No access to the "Tank Bank"?

Postby tankbuster on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 9:38 am

HuwJHopkins wrote::grin: :grin: :grin:

I really cannot comprehend how you think all of that is boring, pointless and worthy of taking up tiddlywinks instead of. Unless you are just trolling for the sake of it.

So, I ask you this, give me an actual example of what you would like to see at Flying Legends? I really am interested to know.


I'd like to see jets. A classic aircraft doesn't have to have props. As well as making the display more varied it would give the organisers a much better pool of source aircraft. When the ME262 eventually makes it over here, it would be a superb addition to a Legends line up rather than as a shoe in at Farnborough or RIAT.
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Re: No access to the "Tank Bank"?

Postby Pen Pusher on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 9:44 am

tankbuster wrote: rather than as a shoe in at Farnborough or RIAT.


No Franborough and RIAT are a shoe in at Legends as Legends does not change its date, RIAT does.

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Re: No access to the "Tank Bank"?

Postby Slappywag on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 9:56 am

tankbuster wrote:
HuwJHopkins wrote::grin: :grin: :grin:

I really cannot comprehend how you think all of that is boring, pointless and worthy of taking up tiddlywinks instead of. Unless you are just trolling for the sake of it.

So, I ask you this, give me an actual example of what you would like to see at Flying Legends? I really am interested to know.


I'd like to see jets. A classic aircraft doesn't have to have props. As well as making the display more varied it would give the organisers a much better pool of source aircraft. When the ME262 eventually makes it over here, it would be a superb addition to a Legends line up rather than as a shoe in at Farnborough or RIAT.

This. Legends is such a broad spectrum that can encompass all genres; fabric to stealth ( :ninja: ).

Isolating themselves with unnecessary snobbery to a small time period inevitably results in the aforementioned problems of similarity/repetition etc and open themselves to a bigger market.

More people= more money, and boy could they do with that right now.

Pen Pusher wrote:
tankbuster wrote: rather than as a shoe in at Farnborough or RIAT.


No Franborough and RIAT are a shoe in at Legends as Legends does not change its date, RIAT does.

Brian

Despite Tom stating that their dates are advised many years in advance? But lets not let that get in the way.
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Re: No access to the "Tank Bank"?

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 9:59 am

HuwJHopkins wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote:Elliott's nailed it with his GAR editorial.

Duxford's reputation as an airshow venue took an almighty, and deserved, pounding after the May fiasco. Closing the only decent position within the showground is another, massive body-blow. They lost the enthusiasts in May, and peed-off the families. This only further alienates their most loyal rain-or-shine customers.

Whether it's entirely self-inflicted this time, is not fully clear.


Come on, Dan, this is more than a tad contradictory isn't it!? If you think the criticism post-May show was justified regarding the venue (not that you saw for yourself!), how can you not see that these changes allowing the more typical Legends displays, the show's trademark, to continue is a positive thing and still blindly bury the hatchet into Duxford. Vendettas never die I suppose!

This is exactly the kind of thing we don't need right now.


Not contradictory at all, Huw.

Losing the Tank Bank is like the Globe nailing a roof on. The character of the venue is lost forever and changed for the worse.

I might not care much for shows inside Duxford, they don't give me, personally, what I require from an airshow experience, but I do believe the venue itself was perfectly safe (even though plenty of aspects of previous Legends I witnessed felt otherwise), or at least the risk was acceptable insofar as everyday life carrying a degree of risk. I also believe that, historically, Duxford is of huge significance, and to lose it as an airshow venue would be tantamount to cultural vandalism.

But to neuter an already dire spectator experience can, in no way, be spun as a positive. Sorry, but that's undeniable.
Dan O'Hagan

Re: No access to the "Tank Bank"?

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 10:13 am

I don't see any reason for Legends to invite jets. It markets itself as a piston warbird event, and in that, is pretty unique, certainly in this country. If jets are what you want to see, or even a mixed bag, there are no shortage of alternative shows. Turning something as unique as Legends into just another airshow would be loss to the airshow scene, not a gain.

There's scope for more variety though. Why not attempt a Europe-wide gathering of Hurricanes one year? You could end up with seven of eight of them in formation, and then do it the next year with Mustangs etc. It might mean a change of policy as far as building bridges with some operators, but it's surely not beyond the realms of possibility to pick an iconic type and bring all the 'nearby' flyers together for the first time?
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Re: No access to the "Tank Bank"?

Postby The Baron on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 10:54 am

HuwJHopkins wrote::grin: :grin: :grin:

I really cannot comprehend how you think all of that is boring, pointless and worthy of taking up tiddlywinks instead of. Unless you are just trolling for the sake of it.

So, I ask you this, give me an actual example of what you would like to see at Flying Legends? I really am interested to know.


Well Huw I'm still waiting to hear why the Flamants and Noratlas aren't Flying Legends aircraft.
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Re: No access to the "Tank Bank"?

Postby Tim N on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 10:57 am

paullangford RIAT always ends up on the Legends weekend in a Farnborough year...........a pain in the backside.
FIA stopped being a pleasant experience on the weekend years ago.
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Re: No access to the "Tank Bank"?

Postby HuwJHopkins on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 11:28 am

Ah I should have guessed it would be the old cry for jets at Legends! Apart from them not fitting the Legends mantra of 'piston powered propeller aircraft', what would you want to attend!? Hunters? Grounded. Sabre? Our sole example sold to the USA. Vampire? UK based example up for sale and not doing airshows. That leaves you with JPs then. Nope, give me Europe's rarest warbirds any day!

LN Strike Eagle wrote:I don't see any reason for Legends to invite jets. It markets itself as a piston warbird event, and in that, is pretty unique, certainly in this country. If jets are what you want to see, or even a mixed bag, there are no shortage of alternative shows. Turning something as unique as Legends into just another airshow would be loss to the airshow scene, not a gain.

There's scope for more variety though. Why not attempt a Europe-wide gathering of Hurricanes one year? You could end up with seven of eight of them in formation, and then do it the next year with Mustangs etc. It might mean a change of policy as far as building bridges with some operators, but it's surely not beyond the realms of possibility to pick an iconic type and bring all the 'nearby' flyers together for the first time?


Dan, I do like this idea, but it most certainly is not without it's hurdles. Notably; operators preferring not to appear at Duxford (not Legends not wanting them), some European warbirds charging silly amounts to appear and then, there aren't too many types to try it with. Hurricanes, Mustangs, Curtiss Fighters (we see nearly all of them together anyway). Then what?

The Baron wrote:Well Huw I'm still waiting to hear why the Flamants and Noratlas aren't Flying Legends aircraft.


They are a little too late in time for me to fit the Legends ethos, there tends not to be many aircraft from the late 40s and into the 50s, though there have been exceptions. If they appeared I certainly wouldn't shun them, as I have enjoyed seeing Flammants display at La Ferte and Noratlas display at Hahnweide, but I certainly don't rest my enjoyment of Legends on them appearing.

Dan O'Hagan wrote:Not contradictory at all, Huw.

Losing the Tank Bank is like the Globe nailing a roof on. The character of the venue is lost forever and changed for the worse.

I might not care much for shows inside Duxford, they don't give me, personally, what I require from an airshow experience, but I do believe the venue itself was perfectly safe (even though plenty of aspects of previous Legends I witnessed felt otherwise), or at least the risk was acceptable insofar as everyday life carrying a degree of risk. I also believe that, historically, Duxford is of huge significance, and to lose it as an airshow venue would be tantamount to cultural vandalism.

But to neuter an already dire spectator experience can, in no way, be spun as a positive. Sorry, but that's undeniable.


Dan, I really think you're missing the point, chap! I think in May we saw what is possible with the old style tank bank layout under the new regs, had it stayed the same for Legends, then the typical Legends style flying we love would have been neutered. I believe this change is to be able to keep as much of it as possible. It's not about the distance away from the flying, because it would be 150m and 230m from the furthest point whether the tank bank stayed or went. So yes, either May style crowdline with tank bank which wouldn't have worked with the Flying Legends format, or no-tank bank and something closer to the Flying Legends style we're all used to and (most of us!) love. It will be better, that's undeniable!
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Re: No access to the "Tank Bank"?

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 11:36 am

To Be Continued on the day after Legends. Let's see who was right...
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