Advance Ticket Sales Good idea or not?

Re: Advance Ticket Sales Good idea or not?

Postby cg_341 on Sun 29 May 2016, 7:12 pm

But surely you should work out your venue's capacity and plan based on that? So selling tickets up front or on the gate is irrelevant?
cg_341

Re: Advance Ticket Sales Good idea or not?

Postby Private Custard on Sun 29 May 2016, 7:23 pm

I can understand the corner they're painted into. Remember when the two Lancs were coming, and they stupidly announced that they had 5000 tickets left to sell at the gate. All hell broke loose, the M11 had tailbacks, people were parking on the hard shoulder during the display, thousands didn't want a wasted journey and were in the surrounding fields. It was a mess of epic proportions.

But, when you have absolutely zero big-ticket items, it all seems a bit silly.
Private Custard

Re: Advance Ticket Sales Good idea or not?

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Sun 29 May 2016, 8:45 pm

It would be wrong to assume that Duxford necessarily still has the required mechanisms in place, both in terms of technology and staff, to accept payment on the day.

That might be a simple explanation for why they were unable to take payment on the day, even though they were thousands and thousands below capacity this weekend.
Dan O'Hagan

Re: Advance Ticket Sales Good idea or not?

Postby frank on Sun 29 May 2016, 9:09 pm

Are Airshows being advised to move towards Advance Ticket Sales for security reasons rather than any other reason. Just wondering :ninja:
frank

Re: Advance Ticket Sales Good idea or not?

Postby FarnboroJohn on Mon 30 May 2016, 6:50 am

Whatever their reasoning, the British weather doesn't favour advance ticketing. The choice of which day to go is key. If Duxford want the numbers coming in, they will need to restore their previous way of doing things. I suspect they will because a 75% drop in ticket sales will hit them hard.

I would have gone to the American Air Show if I could have bought a ticket on the gate. Guess what - I didn't.

I will be going to Legends because I am at RIAT Saturday so can only go on Sunday and I enjoy the show. As for the September show, who knows? The car parking addition is a pain in the backside. If the airshow tickets are underpriced, they need to be made a little more expensive or you need to be able to buy both in one transaction (perhaps you can? Haven't tried yet!)

John
FarnboroJohn

Re: Advance Ticket Sales Good idea or not?

Postby TKK 140 on Mon 30 May 2016, 7:46 am

Having had so much success in recent times and advance ticketing being successful there was always going to be a time when it didn't pan out. It is a better way to organise the event no doubt, however the unpredictability of the weather, as last year, means the spring air show is a lottery if you buy a ticket early.

One point I did not understand. Why was there a virtually private re opening of the American Hall a couple of months back? It would have been news worthy and a good marketing point if the rededication ceremony had been conducted (repeated) over the weekend.
TKK 140

Re: Advance Ticket Sales Good idea or not?

Postby Young Pete on Mon 30 May 2016, 7:55 am

Might the advance ticket policy be for security reasons?

1: Jihadist nutters (or, if Guardianistas are reading: innocent, helpless and justified victims of evil Western capitalist foreign policy)
2: If there's an accident, they know exactly who's inside.
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Young Pete

Re: Advance Ticket Sales Good idea or not?

Postby speedbird2639 on Mon 30 May 2016, 8:46 am

Young Pete wrote:Might the advance ticket policy be for security reasons?

1: Jihadist nutters (or, if Guardianistas are reading: innocent, helpless and justified victims of evil Western capitalist foreign policy)
2: If there's an accident, they know exactly who's inside.


I'm sure those identifying as in #1 category know how to use the internet and buy tickets in advance.

Re #2 how does that mean that they know who is inside? People may arrive late, leave early, not go at all. People may be in receipt of a ticket that someone else had bought, couldn't use for some reason and passed on to someone else.

I think a lot of people are over thinking this. (One of) the main reasons why venues introduce advance ticketing is to insure themselves against the weather. I certainly wouldn't have bothered to go to Cosford in 2011 if I didnt have an advance ticket - but I already had my ticket so I went and had to sit in the car for the duration.

Regarding Dan saying they may not have the mechanism for collecting payment on the day I'm sure most people would've had enough cash on them to pay on the gate. Then all you have to do is find a couple of reasonably trustworthy staff, some hard copy tickets and something to put the collected monies in and you are away. Filter the incoming cars into 'already have advance tickets' and 'need to buy on the day' and delays will be minimal.
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speedbird2639

Re: Advance Ticket Sales Good idea or not?

Postby Young Pete on Mon 30 May 2016, 9:24 am

But the people in #1 category leave a trace and in #2 you at least know who's bought tickets. Neither of these apply by paying cash at the door.

It was a suggestion as to whether the powers that be think it might a "a good idea or not". The clue's in the thread title.

There's terrific snottiness on this site and I've no idea why anyone bothers to post.
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Young Pete

Re: Advance Ticket Sales Good idea or not?

Postby cg_341 on Mon 30 May 2016, 9:26 am

Young Pete wrote:1: Jihadist nutters (or, if Guardianistas are reading: innocent, helpless and justified victims of evil Western capitalist foreign policy)

Do you work for the Daily Mail, or Express, perchance?
cg_341

Re: Advance Ticket Sales Good idea or not?

Postby Thoughtful_Flyer on Mon 30 May 2016, 9:28 am

Young Pete wrote:Might the advance ticket policy be for security reasons?

1: Jihadist nutters (or, if Guardianistas are reading: innocent, helpless and justified victims of evil Western capitalist foreign policy)
2: If there's an accident, they know exactly who's inside.


No they don't. Assuming all tickets are scanned on the way in they know how many people have turned up. Although they know who bought the tickets they are frequently re-sold or given away so they have no idea who is actually using the ticket.

I would have though a reasonable compromise would be to offer advanced tickets at a significant reduction (or more likely sell gate tickets at a premium!). Advance only is clearly going to put some people off.

Having said all that and to play devil's advocate, most retailers love selling gift vouchers as a very significant number are never redeemed. Perhaps that is true of advanced air show tickets too? The IWM will have all of these figures so maybe they are not a stupid as some would believe!
Thoughtful_Flyer

Re: Advance Ticket Sales Good idea or not?

Postby Thoughtful_Flyer on Mon 30 May 2016, 9:37 am

speedbird2639 wrote:Regarding Dan saying they may not have the mechanism for collecting payment on the day I'm sure most people would've had enough cash on them to pay on the gate. Then all you have to do is find a couple of reasonably trustworthy staff, some hard copy tickets and something to put the collected monies in and you are away. Filter the incoming cars into 'already have advance tickets' and 'need to buy on the day' and delays will be minimal.


Again to play Devil's advocate as soon as you do this it gets around that actually you can pay at the gate so starts to dilute the advanced sales. It is a bit like the retail dilemma of reducing prices at the end of the day or throwing the food away. Too many end of day bargains and full price sales drop.

Also, when the bulk of tickets were bought at the gate the amount of cash that had to be dealt with was frightening. Dealing with large amounts of cash for a business is expensive, far more so than the credit card percentage.

Obviously, as a punter, I would prefer the option of paying at the gate if I so choose. However it is not a simple as many make out. Anyway, as I get a free ticket it doesn't bother me at Duxford but is obviously relevant elsewhere.
Thoughtful_Flyer

Re: Advance Ticket Sales Good idea or not?

Postby Private Custard on Mon 30 May 2016, 10:52 am

Thoughtful_Flyer wrote:Dealing with large amounts of cash for a business is expensive


Not half as expensive as ending up in the red due to no bugger turning up!
Private Custard

Re: Advance Ticket Sales Good idea or not?

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Mon 30 May 2016, 11:26 am

To suggest all-ticket is a response to the threat of jihad is so moronic it borders on trolling.

All-ticket shows have been brought in as a direct result of RIAT's washout in 2008. As soon as that show went all-ticket, thus generating panic-buying year-on-year guaranteeing sell-outs regardless of the line-up, other shows were quick to copy. But RIAT is RIAT, there'll always be something there to justify the average spectator taking a punt on getting soaked. But even there, having to pre-select a specific day antagonises the customer.

Where it can't be justified is at events like Duxford this year, and indeed Cosford, both of which have had the thinnest line-ups in living memory. All-ticket puts the balance of power in the organiser's hands, and robs the visitor of the luxury of choice.

Is it any wonder the gate was thousands down at Duxford, with the surrounding fields and lanes packed with people and cars?
Dan O'Hagan

Re: Advance Ticket Sales Good idea or not?

Postby TKK 140 on Mon 30 May 2016, 12:30 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:To suggest all-ticket is a response to the threat of jihad is so moronic it borders on trolling.

All-ticket shows have been brought in as a direct result of RIAT's washout in 2008. As soon as that show went all-ticket, thus generating panic-buying year-on-year guaranteeing sell-outs regardless of the line-up, other shows were quick to copy. But RIAT is RIAT, there'll always be something there to justify the average spectator taking a punt on getting soaked. But even there, having to pre-select a specific day antagonises the customer.

Where it can't be justified is at events like Duxford this year, and indeed Cosford, both of which have had the thinnest line-ups in living memory. All-ticket puts the balance of power in the organiser's hands, and robs the visitor of the luxury of choice.

Is it any wonder the gate was thousands down at Duxford, with the surrounding fields and lanes packed with people and cars?


Really, I certainly didn't see any one but security in the fields opposite yesterday.

As for cars parked up, there will always be people who will watch wherever they can. Nothing wrong with that.

But have you considered they may not have entered anyway, or they are not part of the missing thousand's

IWM appear to finally sorted the mound issue for the moment at least.

As it stands now 80 people have expressed why they didn't go. That's made a huge difference then.
When we see the so called "thin" list we remember that the variety and depth of aircraft on show is in fact substantial. Maybe not everyone's cup of tea but hey that's life.

You could help by writing all your points in a letter to IWM.
Last edited by TKK 140 on Mon 30 May 2016, 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
TKK 140

Re: Advance Ticket Sales Good idea or not?

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Mon 30 May 2016, 12:34 pm

Must I spell everything out for you? Where does it mention the fields opposite and the mound?

I am referring to the spectators in the fields and verges along the A505 and adjoining lanes. From the "school" roundabout to way beyond the pet crematorium.
Dan O'Hagan

Re: Advance Ticket Sales Good idea or not?

Postby TKK 140 on Mon 30 May 2016, 12:40 pm

I am making a counter point. It's a debate, remember.

Edit, less of the aggressive language as well please.
Last edited by TKK 140 on Mon 30 May 2016, 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
TKK 140

Re: Advance Ticket Sales Good idea or not?

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Mon 30 May 2016, 12:41 pm

TKK 140 wrote:I am making a counter point. It's a debate, remember.


:dizzy:
Dan O'Hagan

Re: Advance Ticket Sales Good idea or not?

Postby TKK 140 on Mon 30 May 2016, 12:49 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
TKK 140 wrote:I am making a counter point. It's a debate, remember.


:dizzy:


Dan O
Is it any wonder the gate was thousands down at Duxford, with the surrounding fields and lanes packed with people and cars?[/quote]

Best to explain to yourself, that's what I replied too.
:dunno: :joystick:
TKK 140

Re: Advance Ticket Sales Good idea or not?

Postby pbeardmore on Mon 30 May 2016, 12:58 pm

"All-ticket puts the balance of power in the organiser's hands,"

Its a very interesting debate re business models, the basic concept has to be that you can get some where near a sell out and then punters will be afraid of a sell out and then be forced into making a decision without info re the weather or other plans etc. It also ensures that the organisers know exactly how many will be coming (traffic, parking, looks etc)

BUT

for shows that have a relatively large capacity and a line up that does not pull in a big pre-show interest, you have to wonder if the policy does pay off. If there is no sell out and you get fantastic weather, the organisers are effectively turning away a whole market sector of "fair weather fans" who want to enjoy a good sunny day out.

By definition, only when the tickets sell out do the organisers know that they made the right decision to go all ticket. If they dont sell out, they will never know of the lost revenue that they have sacrificed by not taking cash on the day. So the balance of power is not all in their hands as they have tied thier hands re the ability to make further profit on the day.
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pbeardmore

Re: Advance Ticket Sales Good idea or not?

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Mon 30 May 2016, 1:04 pm

pbeardmore wrote:"All-ticket puts the balance of power in the organiser's hands,"

Its a very interesting debate re business models, the basic concept has to be that you can get some where near a sell out and then punters will be afraid of a sell out and then be forced into making a decision without info re the weather or other plans etc. It also ensures that the organisers know exactly how many will be coming (traffic, parking, looks etc)

BUT

for shows that have a relatively large capacity and a line up that does not pull in a big pre-show interest, you have to wonder if the policy does pay off. If there is no sell out and you get fantastic weather, the organisers are effectively turning away a whole market sector of "fair weather fans" who want to enjoy a good sunny day out.

By definition, only when the tickets sell out do the organisers know that they made the right decision to go all ticket. If they dont sell out, they will never know of the lost revenue that they have sacrificed by not taking cash on the day. So the balance of power is not all in their hands as they have tied thier hands re the ability to make further profit on the day.


I was told a month ago that sales were "pitiful". This thin turn out can hardly have come as a surprise to IWM. The question has to be why, with weeks of prior warning, was the advance-ticketing system not scrapped? Even if it put just another 1,000 on the gate over the weekend, that's circa £30,000 tossed away?
Dan O'Hagan

Re: Advance Ticket Sales Good idea or not?

Postby pbeardmore on Mon 30 May 2016, 1:11 pm

Yes, it would have been a massive surprise, given the line up and the bad PR re display lines etc, the the first show would have sold out,

so knowing that, there was at least potential for some fantastic weather. There are plenty of fans who would prefer to look at the weather forecast on Sat morning and say "right, lets go", it is hard to see the logic of not wanting to take these consumer's money (or at least, leaving the option open) and at a tme when airshows are under threat etc.

I cant get my head around the strategy (is Legends all ticket?) and why not keep selling e-tickets over the weekend? (effectlively meaning via smart phones etc that they can be purchased on the way)
“The best computer is a man, and it’s the only one that can be mass-produced by unskilled labour.”
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pbeardmore

Re: Advance Ticket Sales Good idea or not?

Postby Tim N on Mon 30 May 2016, 1:18 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:To suggest all-ticket is a response to the threat of jihad is so moronic it borders on trolling.

All-ticket shows have been brought in as a direct result of RIAT's washout in 2008. As soon as that show went all-ticket, thus generating panic-buying year-on-year guaranteeing sell-outs regardless of the line-up, other shows were quick to copy. But RIAT is RIAT, there'll always be something there to justify the average spectator taking a punt on getting soaked. But even there, having to pre-select a specific day antagonises the customer.

Where it can't be justified is at events like Duxford this year, and indeed Cosford, both of which have had the thinnest line-ups in living memory. All-ticket puts the balance of power in the organiser's hands, and robs the visitor of the luxury of choice.

Is it any wonder the gate was thousands down at Duxford, with the surrounding fields and lanes packed with people and cars?


I have to confess I thought the RIAT all ticket policy was brought in for crowd control reasons because the local police were expressing concerns?
When an event returned to Biggin Hill the organisers were up front from the start that a show would return on the proviso that crowd numbers would be reduced.
The old Air Fairs were regularly full to capacity and as Biggin is now a thriving Bizjet location they want to ensure ops aren't affected too much, so an all ticket scheme was inevitable there.
A duo of newly restored Mossies (insert your dream restoration/act here) would justify the all ticket system at Duxford although I'd still find it a nause for the reasons given by many already.
I suspect those not so irate about this set up are those on heavily subsidised or free tickets or the 'bedroom aviation enthusiast blog crowd' who score press passes.
I think we'll be stuck with this policy this year but I wouldn't be surprised to see it junked next season.
When I had a choice of seats in the FoD area and managed not to incur the wrath of the miserable old prick* in there who yells at people to sit down (even though he sits........or almost stands on a semi elevated Zimmer frame lash up) I knew the crowds were low . Then I drove out of a virtually empty car park with no queue........unheard of at my average departure times.
Whatever other advantages the IWM have experienced with their new system, the huge reduction in crowd numbers has cancelled this out , this wasn't a few hundred it was thousands.

*Note:- The vast majority of the FoD volunteers are extremely helpful and friendly individuals, there are ,as with many volunteer set ups those who are just there for the perks and not at all interested in being friendly,helpful or approachable.
Tim N

Re: Advance Ticket Sales Good idea or not?

Postby Thoughtful_Flyer on Mon 30 May 2016, 1:20 pm

pbeardmore wrote:"All-ticket puts the balance of power in the organiser's hands,"

Its a very interesting debate re business models, the basic concept has to be that you can get some where near a sell out and then punters will be afraid of a sell out and then be forced into making a decision without info re the weather or other plans etc. It also ensures that the organisers know exactly how many will be coming (traffic, parking, looks etc)

BUT

for shows that have a relatively large capacity and a line up that does not pull in a big pre-show interest, you have to wonder if the policy does pay off. If there is no sell out and you get fantastic weather, the organisers are effectively turning away a whole market sector of "fair weather fans" who want to enjoy a good sunny day out.

By definition, only when the tickets sell out do the organisers know that they made the right decision to go all ticket. If they dont sell out, they will never know of the lost revenue that they have sacrificed by not taking cash on the day. So the balance of power is not all in their hands as they have tied thier hands re the ability to make further profit on the day.


I would like to see some proper figures, not guesses and rumours.

It is a two edged sword. By going "advance ticket only" you can hype it along with "selling fast - last few remaining" etc etc. Also you can oversell your capacity as statistically X% will not turn up. You also have some administrative cost savings and the ability to reduce casual staffing levels if sales are not going well.

Against that you lose those who, for whatever reason, will only pay at the gate and are not prepared to book online right up to 8 hours before the gate opened on Saturday.

It is very easy to look at the sparse crowd on Saturday and say "Oh, they would have flocked in had it been cash on the door" but would they? Given the murky condition there may actually have been even less!

It is not that simple.
Thoughtful_Flyer

Re: Advance Ticket Sales Good idea or not?

Postby Tim N on Mon 30 May 2016, 1:45 pm

It's important to stress that the crowd was massively down Sunday too.
One very popular book retailer was starting to pull down its display way before the end yesterday.
Plus Hannants was easy to navigate without ending up cheek by jowel with a boss eyed odiferous lump with a rucksack.
Yesterday was the real acid test, the Red Arrows were on the bill and it was widely known the murk would clear by display time , clearly thousands were denied a day out.
Tim N

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