Flying Legends 2017

Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby Pringles on Mon 10 Jul 2017, 6:52 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:Wasn't the French Spitfire that flipped over Jacquard's? Might explain his absence.

It was, however when the Spitfire was removed the Sea Fury remained on the website and in the programme, and I believe there was some promotional push on the FL social media platforms including the Sea Fury in the line-up
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby Sundowner on Mon 10 Jul 2017, 7:23 pm

Wasn't it DanO that said something about the Sea Vixen a couple of weeks ago, something about the time being right to drag it into the museum , well, maybe the time is right for all these old warbirds to be confined to the museum, aircraft that fly by the laws of gravity will always return to earth just not always when and where they should..... :whistle:
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby DirtyFokker on Mon 10 Jul 2017, 8:08 pm

Pen Pusher wrote:Image
Brian


I don't think we'll be seeing her in the air for a long time :sad:
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby paullangford on Mon 10 Jul 2017, 8:14 pm

Pen Pusher wrote:
LN Strike Eagle wrote:On the face of it, Cosford closed 18 roads I think it was, Shuttleworth have to close a country lane, and yet Duxford continues above a motorway. I don't see the logic. .

The rules are that there are no aerobatic manoeuvres performed over the M11, which was why the Red Arrows datum was moved and on an angle, or during a display the aircraft must be above 500ft when they cross the M11. As they are not aerobatic manoeuvres, take off's and landings over the M11 are permitted. If traffic is stationary on the M11/A505, due to a road traffic accident near Duxford airfield, then display flying stops or datum moved further west depending on the severity of the accident.

Brian



I'm not disputing the above, but why did they display along the normal axis at Duxford only last September ?............have some new regs come into place since then ?
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby speedbird2639 on Mon 10 Jul 2017, 8:15 pm

Love the bloke in the hi viz scratching his head and thinking "Do we cut the already damaged wing tip off or cut down the councils traffic light?" :grin:
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby starbuck on Mon 10 Jul 2017, 8:51 pm

speedbird2639 wrote:Love the bloke in the hi viz scratching his head and thinking "Do we cut the already damaged wing tip off or cut down the councils traffic light?" :grin:


He's nothing to do with the recovery he's just wondering how long its going to be before he can get across the road :lol:
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby stuart n on Mon 10 Jul 2017, 9:01 pm

Did they hit the lights or stop just short when they realised it wasn't going to get through the gap :question:
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby timuss on Mon 10 Jul 2017, 9:15 pm

Quite remarkable really externally the damage isn't as bad as it could have been. I've seen a picture on facebook of her on her landing gear outside one of the hangar's, obviously its bad but I'm sure we'll see her again in time.
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby ted633 on Mon 10 Jul 2017, 9:21 pm

Thoughtful_Flyer wrote:
Pen Pusher wrote: If traffic is stationary on the M11/A505, due to a road traffic accident near Duxford airfield, then display flying stops or datum moved further west depending on the severity of the accident.

Brian


Interesting distinction?

So, the (hopefully remote) possibility of an aircraft crashing into stationary traffic has been judged an unacceptable risk. However hitting a busy motorway moving at say 60mph with the remaining traffic piling into the wreckage is OK?

Very difficult to know where you draw the line really.


I think it's more to do with not disturbing any emergency services with aircraft noise while they are dealing with an accident. They was queueing traffic on the southbound M11 on Sunday (not due to an accident), with no change to the display
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby UKTopgun on Mon 10 Jul 2017, 9:24 pm

Looks to have been a lovely gentle put down all things considered, dread to think how it would have turned out had the gear dug in, great skill and a sprinkling of luck I suppose :smile:
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Mon 10 Jul 2017, 9:54 pm

timuss wrote:Quite remarkable really externally the damage isn't as bad as it could have been. I've seen a picture on facebook of her on her landing gear outside one of the hangar's, obviously its bad but I'm sure we'll see her again in time.


On her gear? Got a link to the picture? I'd have imagined the dangling unlocked gear would have been mangled and torn off in the crash landing.
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby Jumbo on Mon 10 Jul 2017, 9:58 pm

Thoughtful_Flyer wrote:
Interesting distinction?

So, the (hopefully remote) possibility of an aircraft crashing into stationary traffic has been judged an unacceptable risk. However hitting a busy motorway moving at say 60mph with the remaining traffic piling into the wreckage is OK?

Very difficult to know where you draw the line really.


When the traffic is stationary the cars are much closer together and therefore if an aircraft goes down on the M11 then it will hit more cars, whereas modern cars can stop in a very short distance and people are much less likely to die in a collision in which the car in front decelerates suddenly than if an aircraft hits them. Modern cars are very well designed to maximise chances of survival in a collision with another car with seat belts and crumple zones etc but they won't help much against a plane as seen tragically at Shoreham. Besides, traffic stop suddenly when cars crash into each other without causing huge pileups and devastation!
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Mon 10 Jul 2017, 10:11 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
timuss wrote:Quite remarkable really externally the damage isn't as bad as it could have been. I've seen a picture on facebook of her on her landing gear outside one of the hangar's, obviously its bad but I'm sure we'll see her again in time.


On her gear? Got a link to the picture? I'd have imagined the dangling unlocked gear would have been mangled and torn off in the crash landing.

Images on the Key Pub forum. Looks in remarkably good condition, all things considered.
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Mon 10 Jul 2017, 10:11 pm

Just seen the picture, she was indeed back on her gear today. Looks like this was one of the most remarkable "saves" in recent warbird history.

Not exactly a happy ending, but could have been infinitely worse.
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby Ryan. on Tue 11 Jul 2017, 1:23 am

LN Strike Eagle wrote:You do have to wonder about the viability of Duxford as a venue. I said after Shoreham that surely it couldn't continue, and I know that North Weald abandoned their plans to host a proper airshow again in the immediate aftermath because of the M11.

I really don't know what the answer is here. The CAA's reaction has rather painted themselves and the industry into a corner and there's very little room for manoeuvre.


I don't really see what the difference is here between Duxford and North Weald. Both operate vintage aircraft that could, like any aircraft, be involved in a mechanical incident near to a very major road. If you are to shut down operations at Duxford then surely North Weald would have to follow suit, or indeed any airfield that operates a significant number of vintage aircraft. Of course more aircraft movements occur when an airshow is hosted at Duxford but that doesn't necessarily mean the likelihood of anything happening will increase, it's just as likely to happen at any other airfield.

I think therefore the answer has mostly already presented itself. It's about training and planning for a situation like this, that means even if you have very little height and airspeed, the pilot is still trained to know how to make sure the aircraft ends up as far away from spectators and public alike.
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby davidjones533 on Tue 11 Jul 2017, 6:39 am

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
timuss wrote:Quite remarkable really externally the damage isn't as bad as it could have been. I've seen a picture on facebook of her on her landing gear outside one of the hangar's, obviously its bad but I'm sure we'll see her again in time.


On her gear? Got a link to the picture? I'd have imagined the dangling unlocked gear would have been mangled and torn off in the crash landing.


Just curious as to why the gear would not be locked. They looked fully down to me from when I noticed her break off the main formation while still south of Duxford.
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby boff180 on Tue 11 Jul 2017, 7:03 am

davidjones533 wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote:
timuss wrote:Quite remarkable really externally the damage isn't as bad as it could have been. I've seen a picture on facebook of her on her landing gear outside one of the hangar's, obviously its bad but I'm sure we'll see her again in time.


On her gear? Got a link to the picture? I'd have imagined the dangling unlocked gear would have been mangled and torn off in the crash landing.


Just curious as to why the gear would not be locked. They looked fully down to me from when I noticed her break off the main formation while still south of Duxford.


The gear was up until the final moments of the aborted short final, the gear appeared to be blown down by the emergency gas system as they came out with some Force.
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby UKTopgun on Tue 11 Jul 2017, 7:09 am

Given it all ended well, is it OK to name the pilot who deserves so much credit or not (cool if not)
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Tue 11 Jul 2017, 7:26 am

UKTopgun wrote:Given it all ended well, is it OK to name the pilot who deserves so much credit or not (cool if not)


I'd like to know who it was, they deserve a lot of praise.

As for the gear, I understand after blowing them down, the realisation it wouldn't make the airport led to a decision to retract to avoid the risk of flipping over. There wasn't time to fully raise the gear, hence they collapsed, probably saving the airframe and the pilot's life. One of several split-second decisions he appears to have nailed.
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby davidjones533 on Tue 11 Jul 2017, 11:02 am

Fair enough - they were certainly down for a period when I was watching, and confirmed in my photos, didn't realise he had tried to retract.
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby Andover on Tue 11 Jul 2017, 6:52 pm

Great show, my first time at Legends (albeit very hot on Sturday.) However, regarding aircraft distances, the trouble with this show - and I'm assuming the display axis is flown down the main runway - is that you have the grass runway AND the flightline aircraft, which pulls the crowdline back along way from the display axis. Much as I like the flying participants close to the crowd, it would be handy if it could be moved up to one side a bit, to allow part of the crowdline to be pushed out a bit, and to enable a better view of take offs/landings.

My favourite was the gleaming solo Dakota. Anyone know what happened to the third Dakota that was due to appear?
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby timuss on Tue 11 Jul 2017, 7:47 pm

Andover wrote:Great show, my first time at Legends (albeit very hot on Sturday.) However, regarding aircraft distances, the trouble with this show - and I'm assuming the display axis is flown down the main runway - is that you have the grass runway AND the flightline aircraft, which pulls the crowdline back along way from the display axis. Much as I like the flying participants close to the crowd, it would be handy if it could be moved up to one side a bit, to allow part of the crowdline to be pushed out a bit, and to enable a better view of take offs/landings.

My favourite was the gleaming solo Dakota. Anyone know what happened to the third Dakota that was due to appear?


A blown engine stuck en route there was a post on the Dakota's over Normandy facebook page.
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby Mike on Tue 11 Jul 2017, 10:30 pm

Andover wrote:...regarding aircraft distances, the trouble with this show - and I'm assuming the display axis is flown down the main runway - is that you have the grass runway AND the flightline aircraft, which pulls the crowdline back along way from the display axis. Much as I like the flying participants close to the crowd, it would be handy if it could be moved up to one side a bit, to allow part of the crowdline to be pushed out a bit, and to enable a better view of take offs/landings.

The display axis is a fixed number of meters from the crowdline. The grass runway and flightline have nothing to do with "pulling the crowdline back", whatever that means.
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby xr221 on Tue 11 Jul 2017, 11:01 pm

Film of the Miss Velma flight here - it does not include the wheels up landing, just the final turns and glide - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LdrY79g99Q

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