Flying Legends 2017

Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby Mike on Wed 12 Jul 2017, 9:17 am

boff180 wrote:The gear was up until the final moments of the aborted short final, the gear appeared to be blown down by the emergency gas system as they came out with some Force.

That's not how the P-51 gear system works. There is no gas blow down system. The emergency procedure if the gear does not extend normally is to pull a red T-handle which dumps the hydraulic pressure and allows the inner clamshell doors to unlock and the gear to fall out of the wells by gravity.

The fact that he still had hydraulic pressure shows that the gear was extended normally. He then selected gear up again when on final approach to the field, photos clearly show the clamshells starting to cycle again as he descended. For this to happen, he would have needed pressure in the system. At that point the main legs would have been unlocked, and they seem to have simply folded back into the wells as he settled into the cornfield.
Mike

Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby Thoughtful_Flyer on Wed 12 Jul 2017, 9:53 am

Mike wrote:
boff180 wrote:The gear was up until the final moments of the aborted short final, the gear appeared to be blown down by the emergency gas system as they came out with some Force.

That's not how the P-51 gear system works. There is no gas blow down system. The emergency procedure if the gear does not extend normally is to pull a red T-handle which dumps the hydraulic pressure and allows the inner clamshell doors to unlock and the gear to fall out of the wells by gravity.

The fact that he still had hydraulic pressure shows that the gear was extended normally. He then selected gear up again when on final approach to the field, photos clearly show the clamshells starting to cycle again as he descended. For this to happen, he would have needed pressure in the system. At that point the main legs would have been unlocked, and they seem to have simply folded back into the wells as he settled into the cornfield.


Quite.

Interesting that the "blown down" nonsense was put forward by the very person who delights in trying to ban speculation on this forum!
Thoughtful_Flyer

Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby boff180 on Wed 12 Jul 2017, 2:30 pm

Hold my hands up, got that wrong - the vigour it came down with appeared to be a blow down.

As for me being the "very person" Thoughtful Flyer, it's a team that runs this website and it is a team decision/position on incidents. But if you also want to continue to make incorrect claims too feel free.
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby Mike on Wed 12 Jul 2017, 3:28 pm

boff180 wrote:Hold my hands up, got that wrong - the vigour it came down with appeared to be a blow down.

I couldn't comment on that, never having witnessed a gear blow-down. Is it noticeably that much quicker than a normal extension?
Mike

Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby Elliott Marsh on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 1:12 pm

http://vintageaviationecho.com/operation-berlin-express/

Thought some might find this interesting - an in-depth interview with Lee Lauderback discussing the planning and execution of Berlin Express' transatlantic flight, illustrated by photographs captured over the USA, Greenland and the UK.

*/shameless promotion*
Elliott Marsh

Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby UK Airshow Review on Wed 26 Jul 2017, 6:32 pm

  • "Great Expectations" - Andy Evans spent his Sunday at IWM Duxford and provides a Flying Legends newcomer's personal account and review for UK Airshow Review.

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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby AlexC on Wed 26 Jul 2017, 6:40 pm

Sadly a P-51D NL251PW 'Baby Duck' lost in the States with two fatalities 16/7/17.
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby Elliott Marsh on Wed 26 Jul 2017, 7:16 pm

Interesting review.

The 2017 edition of Flying Legends would bear witness to the epic journey of Berlin Express from Texas under its own steam - a journey, perhaps, that we would later find out had taken its toll.


I have to take issue with that statement, I'm afraid, as there is absolutely nothing to suggest that the safe transatlantic crossing, during which the aircraft was flown carefully from waypoint to waypoint at cruise speed, contributed to the canopy disintegration at Legends. Appreciate there's a "perhaps" to caveat, but regardless, that's a potentially damaging and unfounded connection to make in my opinion.

Also surprised there's no specific mention of Hurricane P2902's debut as part of the monumental 5 Hurricane sequence, or of the spectacular Joker displays which were arguably some of the finest in Legends history (spoken by someone who has done 23 of them!).
Elliott Marsh

Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby hmeasures on Wed 26 Jul 2017, 7:24 pm

UK Airshow Review wrote:
  • "Great Expectations" - Andy Evans spent his Sunday at IWM Duxford and provides a Flying Legends newcomer's personal account and review for UK Airshow Review.

    Image Image Image Image Image


You appear to have failed to mention quite a lot of the action, and focused on the negatives! What about the superb Bearcat and Fury duo display, or indeed the double joker slot on the Sunday - both in aircraft (so close to being types, too!) that haven't Joker'd previously (OK if you count the Saturday for the Fury). The advance ticket only is also a bit of a moot point being as you can buy them up until midnight the day before the show, so plenty of time to make a choice! Little to no mention of the excellent Mustang set piece (not the horsemen), or indeed the layered 5 hurricane set piece, and within that, as Elliot has pointed out above, the debut of the beautiful P2902. The spirited Wildcat & Catalina display was also great and something different to the usual navy fighter slot... But hey, what's the point in reviewing that when the Red Arrows used a bizarre line :surrender:
hmeasures

Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby Wrexham Mackem on Wed 26 Jul 2017, 7:28 pm

An interesting review indeed, and first and foremost respect to Andy for telling it how he sees it, no words minced :smile:

I broadly agree with the review too, albeit from my usual viewpoint on the crowd line between AAM and tank bank the displays aren't that distant, if further away than ideal. That says as much about Duxford as a venue as anything else - I hear many tales from the M11 end of distant displays and an unpleasant atmosphere in the crowd; its quite laid back where I go. But the tank bank wasn't ever. Its a venue full of compromises.

For me the Horsemen, the big radial pair of Fury and Bearcat, and the joker routines were superb, as was simply being so close to warbirds taxying back in. And that is typical Legends for me. I go every other year, accepting there is a hint of groundhog day about it all.

Still wouldn't like it not to be there..

Adding, in response to the post above, the Red Arrows display line is a significant point, needs airing, and is absolutely and rightly covered in this review, for what its worth from me.
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Wed 26 Jul 2017, 7:41 pm

Elliott Marsh wrote:Interesting review.

The 2017 edition of Flying Legends would bear witness to the epic journey of Berlin Express from Texas under its own steam - a journey, perhaps, that we would later find out had taken its toll.


I have to take issue with that statement, I'm afraid, as there is absolutely nothing to suggest that the safe transatlantic crossing, during which the aircraft was flown carefully from waypoint to waypoint at cruise speed, contributed to the canopy disintegration at Legends. Appreciate there's a "perhaps" to caveat, but regardless, that's a potentially damaging and unfounded connection to make in my opinion.

Also surprised there's no specific mention of Hurricane P2902's debut as part of the monumental 5 Hurricane sequence, or of the spectacular Joker displays which were arguably some of the finest in Legends history (spoken by someone who has done 23 of them!).


I agree with Elliott. Opinions on the quality of the list, flying, display-line etc are bound to vary, which is fair and to be expected, but to suggest the canopy breaking was to do with the transit flight is tabloid rubbish of the kind UKAR should have no part of.

UKAR has long set the bar for impartial, provocative, thought-provoking reviewing. Sad to see these standards have, on this occasion, slipped.
Dan O'Hagan

Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby st24 on Wed 26 Jul 2017, 8:17 pm

Elliott Marsh wrote:
Also surprised there's no specific mention of Hurricane P2902's debut as part of the monumental 5 Hurricane sequence, or of the spectacular Joker displays which were arguably some of the finest in Legends history (spoken by someone who has done 23 of them!).

This. Both Jokers and the Fury /Bearcat sequences were masterclasses and should have been acknowledged as such, irrespective if this was your first or one hundred and first Legends. Another flying Hurricane is a massive plus to the airshow scene and it's debut deserved far more fanfare. The Reds were an "also ran" and whilst the daft display line should be noted, not in such a headlining way, Legends is about much more than that. I also think the line refering to Velma coming down "near to the M11", though factual just points at sensationalising the drama and leads itself to abuse by anyone after a cheap dig. I just feel that in some cases the "saying it like it is" line is laid on way too thick just to get reaction in these reviews. Bad form IMO.
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby Pat Murphy on Wed 26 Jul 2017, 8:49 pm

I did the Saturday this year and parked up at the M11 end. As far as I could gather everyone around me had a great show, we all got on, there was no unpleasantness and, apart from the incident that cut short the display of Berlin Express, all that displayed, was well received around me.

If I have a gripe, then maybe it's a sign of the times. The lineup wasn't the strongest or largest I have seen at Legends. That said, I have never seen 5 Hurricanes in the same sky. The Norwegian C53 was a stunning display and the Beech 18's were just beautiful. Maybe the German/French contingent of recent years, were missed more than they might have been. If the 109E had been available I might have had different thoughts on the lineup.

The Reds weren't there on Saturday, so I can't comment on the display, as I didn't see it, but to me it's a separate issue to Legends and a pity that so much editorial was devoted to it. Maybe a request for an interview with The Reds might be worthwhile, as this looks like it may become a continuing issue.
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby Jumbo on Wed 26 Jul 2017, 8:57 pm

Agreed. For me this was probably the best show I've been to, and the review is really very narrow midned and only focuses on the reds and a the horsemen without mentioning all the other fantastic displays. There was not a single display i truly did not enjoy apart from maybe the reds, some were not as good but the standard was still good. I imagine it does depend where you are but i was near show centre and although the flying was a little distant when the reviewer says:

"camera or no camera, the vast majority of the action was so far away from the crowd that the different types and colour schemes merged into black dots and their impact was ruined"

this is just not true and is even proven not to be by his own photos! Normally i mainly agrere with the show reviews but this just feels like the reviewer has beef with Legends and is trying to do everything to prove it was a bad show whilst not saying the positives. The aforementioned jokers were both fantastic, in particular the Fury, which i have seen at all but 1 of the shows it has attended since arriving back in the UK and yet i was still amazed by it. The wildcat also did a nice display and the air race i found to be a nice display if not to everyones taste.

also, its a little silly to say that the show will be remembered for Velma's mishap, but i find that hard to beleive. I for one will always remember this legends as 'the one with all the hurricanes' which was far more memorable.
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby Gonzo230 on Wed 26 Jul 2017, 10:02 pm

How far away is the display line from the crowd at Duxford? Is it not the CAP403 minimum (150/230/450m)?
Gonzo230

Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Wed 26 Jul 2017, 10:20 pm

Gonzo230 wrote:How far away is the display line from the crowd at Duxford? Is it not the CAP403 minimum (150/230/450m)?


Legends, in their wisdom, operates two display lines, the regular 230m line, then a second one further back, which is no good to man nor beast.

The Yellowjacks flew on their own display line, offset towards the Land Warfare Hall end.
Dan O'Hagan

Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby Gonzo230 on Wed 26 Jul 2017, 10:22 pm

Further back than 450m?
Gonzo230

Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Wed 26 Jul 2017, 10:23 pm

Gonzo230 wrote:Further back than 450m?


It is on or beyond the airfield boundary with the Naughty Field, so I'd estimate it around 450-500m.
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby Gonzo230 on Wed 26 Jul 2017, 10:30 pm

Only time I've seen that used at Legends is during multiple aircraft displays, or during high energy manoeuvres as it would be at any airshow. Was this different this year?

I didn't attend so I'm trying to work out why some are saying that the aircraft were so far away. They appear to run the same minimum distances as any other airshow.
Gonzo230

Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby Elliott Marsh on Wed 26 Jul 2017, 11:49 pm

Legends complies with the standard CAA regs that govern all airshows, so 230m as already said - this is obviously more distant than the pre-2016 era regulations, hence displays being further away. Personally I found the M11 end to be as good, probably better for photography, than any non-Old Warden venue in the modern airshow era. I can honestly say that the distances didn't bother me in the slightest, but then, I don't take photographs. I feared it might affect my enjoyment, being as I've done Legends since 1994 and have always known it for the tank bank beat-ups, but it didn't. It was just a different feel and I came away having had the best week(end) of the year. The general consensus from the many people I spoke to over the weekend was that it was a cracking show, with no real gripes about distances. Not to say other people won't feel differently, of course!

This year the secondary, more distant line was used by six of the nine Spitfires during the opening sequence, and by P-51D 'The Shark' (solo aeros during the Mustang tail chase). Off the top of my head I can't think of anything else that used it. In the past it's been more prevalent in the multi-aircraft set-pieces.
Elliott Marsh

Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby Gonzo230 on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 6:10 am

You're right Elliot, I used to spend most of my time looking through a viewfinder at flying displays.

I now no longer do this: At the Duxford May airshow I took a grand total of one photo of the flying display, and at RIAT over 6 days I didn't take any, but took quite a few static pics on my phone.

I am enjoying air shows far more than I ever did. I realise now that I wasn't really experiencing, nor appreciating them, through a viewfinder.
Gonzo230

Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby boff180 on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 6:33 am

Right, where to begin...

Firstly thank you to everyone who has read the review and commented on here and social media - good or bad. To answer a few specific comments...

Elliot wrote:I have to take issue with that statement

I would agree in retrospect that perhaps that statement could have been written better. Happy to admit my mistakes :-)

Joker displays which were arguably some of the finest in Legends history

We will have to agree to disagree on that point, whilst I can't compare to Legends of the past being a first timer, the word that I used - and those around me - wasn't excellent. I deliberately decided not to comment on it specifically as the word used would have undoubtedly been controversial to the extreme.

Harry wrote:You appear to have failed to mention quite a lot of the action

I do not write reviews which are effectively just a list of everything that flew with comments that "this was nice and that was nice plus this was there".. In my opinion, that style makes for a boring review that organisers can't ascertain the pro's and con's from.

I have chosen my absolute highlights from the show - The Horsemen, Battle of Britain formation and the Transports and spoken about them; I've also chosen what I believe to be the main negatives and spoken about them. Granted, I have concentrated in particular on one negative more than the rest but with good reason.

st24 wrote:Both Jokers and the Fury /Bearcat sequences were masterclasses and should have been acknowledged as such, irrespective if this was your first or one hundred and first Legends. Another flying Hurricane is a massive plus to the airshow scene and it's debut deserved far more fanfare.

Again, I chose to talk about my personal highlights - as this was written as a personal account of the event. The Bearcat was nice, yes, but not an absolute highlight for me.

The Reds were an "also ran" and whilst the daft display line should be noted, not in such a headlining way, Legends is about much more than that.

As stated in the review, I don't understand or agree with this "also ran" view. They were a participant at the show.

The Reds issue, in my opinion, deserved the coverage it was given. Not only is their approach a wider issue for UK airshows which needs calling out but also the organisers need to be challenged over their decision not to tell the public in advance.

Pat wrote:The Reds weren't there on Saturday, so I can't comment on the display, as I didn't see it, but to me it's a separate issue to Legends and a pity that so much editorial was devoted to it. Maybe a request for an interview with The Reds might be worthwhile, as this looks like it may become a continuing issue.

An excellent idea, if the Reds would be willing to stand up and be counted (which I do have my doubts about) but it is something I will feed in to proposals for off season feature reports.

Jumbo wrote:this is just not true and is even proven not to be by his own photos

No it isn't proven by my photos (taken with a 900mm equivalent). The vast majority of those shots are of aircraft whilst they were at the M11 end apart from some of the larger aircraft whilst at show centre. A number of acts I didn't even bother attempting to photograph as they were just too far away to attempt a crop shot of... unless people wanted frozen props as seems to be the current style on social media??

has beef with Legends and is trying to do everything to prove it was a bad show whilst not saying the positives

No beef at all. It was my first Legends and I was really looking forward to it (those that spoke to me a few days before can attest to that). Perhaps it was my fault for believing the hype but I came away with a sense of "is that it?" "Is that really what Flying Legends is?"... to coin Brevet's favourite three letter word I came away feeling "meh". As this review was written as the personal experience of a first timer, of course that feeling is going to come across, the article wouldn't be right if it didn't.


Everyone is entitled to their own opinions which I relish and will feed back in to future reviews for which I thank people. Perhaps a future visit to a Flying Legends will alter the perception that I came away from 2017 with. Right now, I didn't see much that I haven't seen before at a normal Duxford show. Perhaps I've been spoilt over the years by witnessing some excellent displays. Who knows?

Andy
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 8:40 am

Andy,

This review reads like it's written by someone unfamiliar with the warbird scene and unaware of the significance of certain machines displaying and debuting. Much as I dislike shows at Duxford and Legends in particular, you have to give credit where due and comment on significant debuts. Even from the rehearsals I saw it was plain that even though the displays were distant, the flying ability on show was excellent. Don't be afraid to say this. You can still make valid criticisms while admitting that the show wasn't all bad.

Agree a review shouldn't be an endless verbatim, chronological list of types that flew. Reviews like that are boring and something UKAR has tried, with varying degrees of success, to eradicate. UKAR reviews should, as this one has, generate and stimulate discussion, but they should also be fair. Criticism where warranted is fine, where it is done at the expense of deserved praise or acknowledgement of positives is to be on a slippery slope indeed.

I'll be honest, on my watch this would have never been published without a thorough re-write.

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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby boff180 on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 9:10 am

Dan O'Hagan wrote:UKAR sets the standards. You need to uphold them.


Pot. Kettle. Black.
Just like your 2015 Headcorn review did? The review which received the following responses just from serving RAF officers at the time....





Even from the rehearsals I saw it was plain that even though the displays were distant, the flying ability on show was excellent.

Never criticised or questioned the standard of the flying, it was the distance that was called in to question for ruining its impact.
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 9:21 am

There's a way of writing to catch a bite, as Headcorn clearly did, while also giving a fair reflection of the event.

You make valid points in the Legends review, but ignored plenty that really ought to have been made. It reads like it was bashed out in a hurry between Legends and RIAT.
Dan O'Hagan

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