Flying Legends 2017

Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby Ryan. on Fri 28 Jul 2017, 12:28 pm

Flying Legends, has never traded itself on being a "warbird" show. It's always been traded as a "Flying Legends" airshow with that being defined as any aircraft within the era of piston engine power. So the inclusion of a number of transport types is hardly "surprising".

Also in need of larger mention, five Hurricanes' displayed together, yes five Hurricanes' have been assembled before, (Biggin Hill Battle of Britiain flypast, RIAT and Goodwood off the top of my head) but they never displayed or flew together. With of course one Hurricane making its airshow debut. It wasn't just that one flypast that would be one of the stand out moments of the airshow.
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby DaveBr on Fri 28 Jul 2017, 12:34 pm

I thought the Battle of Britain formation was a major highlight - 5 Hurricanes, 3 Mk.I Spitfires and the Blenheim. It think it really lays down the gauntlet to the IWM for their BoB themed show to produce some similar unique formations. I love the massed Spitfires as much as anyone, but a big gathering of genuinely BoB appropriate aircraft could be really special.
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby Elliott Marsh on Fri 28 Jul 2017, 12:58 pm

DaveBr wrote:I thought the Battle of Britain formation was a major highlight - 5 Hurricanes, 3 Mk.I Spitfires and the Blenheim. It think it really lays down the gauntlet to the IWM for their BoB themed show to produce some similar unique formations. I love the massed Spitfires as much as anyone, but a big gathering of genuinely BoB appropriate aircraft could be really special.


This.

There are enough airworthy aircraft of the era (I'm talking the important interwar development era through to the Battle of Britain itself) to do something really special. In fact, I'd quite like to see a flying programme dedicated entirely to the theme, with every act having some relevance to the story being told.

Multiple Tiger Moths, multiple Magisters and multiple Harvards showing how pilot training progressed, Old Warden-based aircraft like the Lysander, Gladiator and Demon (I suspect there would be reluctance to take the Tutor and Tomtit away from home), Bestmann, Fury, Nimrods, TFC's Gladiator, Anson, Blenheim, 109E if available and as many Hurricanes and Spitfires as funds permit. Maybe some air racers and barnstormers showing how aviation developed interwar. A gaggle of Jungmann and Jungmeisters representing the Berlin Olympics and the Luftwaffe's fruition. In 2001 the IWM demonstrated the development of RAF fighter tactics at the September airshow - a perfect opportunity to contextualise displays, showing how things changed from WWI (GWDT, Snipe, BE2e etc.) through to the Battle of France ('vic' formations making Hurricanes and latterly Spitfires easy prey). If you're going to theme a show, really go for it and put some thought into it! The previous BoB shows in 2000, 2010 and 2015 set a decent precedent for this but there are endless possibilities for originality.

Anyway, enough of the fantasy airshow booking - bring on the Falcons!
Elliott Marsh

Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby TKK 140 on Sat 29 Jul 2017, 7:36 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
Elliott Marsh wrote:Interesting review.

The 2017 edition of Flying Legends would bear witness to the epic journey of Berlin Express from Texas under its own steam - a journey, perhaps, that we would later find out had taken its toll.


I have to take issue with that statement, I'm afraid, as there is absolutely nothing to suggest that the safe transatlantic crossing, during which the aircraft was flown carefully from waypoint to waypoint at cruise speed, contributed to the canopy disintegration at Legends. Appreciate there's a "perhaps" to caveat, but regardless, that's a potentially damaging and unfounded connection to make in my opinion.

Also surprised there's no specific mention of Hurricane P2902's debut as part of the monumental 5 Hurricane sequence, or of the spectacular Joker displays which were arguably some of the finest in Legends history (spoken by someone who has done 23 of them!).


I agree with Elliott. Opinions on the quality of the list, flying, display-line etc are bound to vary, which is fair and to be expected, but to suggest the canopy breaking was to do with the transit flight is tabloid rubbish of the kind UKAR should have no part of.

UKAR has long set the bar for impartial, provocative, thought-provoking reviewing. Sad to see these standards have, on this occasion, slipped.



Surely it would be a pre requisite to actually attend a show at Duxford (no not the day before) before pontificating to others about how they write and their report. I don't agree with Andy on much of his review but it shows a complete lack of thought for you to lecture him here.
Unfortunately the high standards to which you refer, particularly in the forums, are undermined by your over use of trying to "get bite". IRONY KLAXON indeed! :dizzy:
TKK 140

Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Sat 29 Jul 2017, 7:54 pm

TKK 140 wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote:
Elliott Marsh wrote:Interesting review.

The 2017 edition of Flying Legends would bear witness to the epic journey of Berlin Express from Texas under its own steam - a journey, perhaps, that we would later find out had taken its toll.


I have to take issue with that statement, I'm afraid, as there is absolutely nothing to suggest that the safe transatlantic crossing, during which the aircraft was flown carefully from waypoint to waypoint at cruise speed, contributed to the canopy disintegration at Legends. Appreciate there's a "perhaps" to caveat, but regardless, that's a potentially damaging and unfounded connection to make in my opinion.

Also surprised there's no specific mention of Hurricane P2902's debut as part of the monumental 5 Hurricane sequence, or of the spectacular Joker displays which were arguably some of the finest in Legends history (spoken by someone who has done 23 of them!).


I agree with Elliott. Opinions on the quality of the list, flying, display-line etc are bound to vary, which is fair and to be expected, but to suggest the canopy breaking was to do with the transit flight is tabloid rubbish of the kind UKAR should have no part of.

UKAR has long set the bar for impartial, provocative, thought-provoking reviewing. Sad to see these standards have, on this occasion, slipped.



Surely it would be a pre requisite to actually attend a show at Duxford (no not the day before) before pontificating to others about how they write and their report. I don't agree with Andy on much of his review but it shows a complete lack of thought for you to lecture him here.
Unfortunately the high standards to which you refer, particularly in the forums, are undermined by your over use of trying to "get bite". IRONY KLAXON indeed! :dizzy:


:dunno:
Dan O'Hagan

Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby TKK 140 on Sat 29 Jul 2017, 8:06 pm

:lol:
TKK 140

Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Sat 29 Jul 2017, 8:16 pm

TKK 140 wrote::lol:


The :dunno: was despair at yet another utter nonsense post of yours. Which, again, sailed right past you.
Dan O'Hagan

Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby TKK 140 on Sat 29 Jul 2017, 9:08 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
TKK 140 wrote::lol:


The :dunno: was despair at yet another utter nonsense post of yours. Which, again, sailed right past you.


I doubt someone so lofty would'nt be able to put it together. You can't see that the polish you self proclaim to apply to formal reports is undermined by the claptrap and boot boy tactics you persistently apply in the forums.

In this particular case pontificating on Andy's report and ignoring he is'nt a Professional Aviation writer. To me that's just plain rude, thoughtless and unnecessary in public.
Thing is if it's really over your head it's got much further to travel.
TKK 140

Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby Elliott Marsh on Fri 04 Aug 2017, 4:35 pm

http://vintageaviationecho.com/flying-legends-25/

A different perspective from a 24-year Legends veteran, if anyone's interested in debating the show further!
Elliott Marsh

Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby boff180 on Fri 04 Aug 2017, 6:59 pm

It's an interesting review although as can probably expected there are a few things I certainly disagree with.

"the buzz unlike any other airshow"

Have to be honest and ask, what buzz? I experienced a marked excitement in the crowd during the BoB flypast but otherwise I felt no different atmosphere than at any other Duxford airshow I have ever attended. Indeed, the "buzz" evident in the crowd when they realised the Israeli was on the list and when the B-2 appeared on the horizon at Fairford were far superior and noticeable in my honest opinion.

"one of the very best airshows in the world"

Again, probably to be expected but I never got a sense of this. After seeing a number of shows in the States, although not yet getting to Oshkosh, there are plenty of significantly better warbird events there - Houston for instance which, as a warbird show, in size scale and variety made Legends look like small.

Each to their own I guess :dunno:
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby TKK 140 on Fri 04 Aug 2017, 7:29 pm

Elliott Marsh wrote:http://vintageaviationecho.com/flying-legends-25/

A different perspective from a 24-year Legends veteran, if anyone's interested in debating the show further!



Another view of the show is welcome, not sure about a tear in the eye though, but 10/10 for presentation.
TKK 140

Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby st24 on Fri 04 Aug 2017, 7:32 pm

boff180 wrote:It's an interesting review although as can probably expected there are a few things I certainly disagree with.

"the buzz unlike any other airshow"

Have to be honest and ask, what buzz? I experienced a marked excitement in the crowd during the BoB flypast but otherwise I felt no different atmosphere than at any other Duxford airshow I have ever attended. Indeed, the "buzz" evident in the crowd when they realised the Israeli was on the list and when the B-2 appeared on the horizon at Fairford were far superior and noticeable in my honest opinion.

"one of the very best airshows in the world"

Again, probably to be expected but I never got a sense of this. After seeing a number of shows in the States, although not yet getting to Oshkosh, there are plenty of significantly better warbird events there - Houston for instance which, as a warbird show, in size scale and variety made Legends look like small.

Each to their own I guess :dunno:


I dunno Andy, having read the review and the above comments you just don't "Get" Legends... If the sound and thrill and tangible excitement of up to 10 Merlins and Griffons clearing their throats and powering same number of Spitfires into the blue, the same then forming up for 5 minutes before screaming in in a mass formation over your shoulder before ripping the place up for 10 minutes doesn't get you to full tumescene (thanks Gordon! :grin:) then no, Legends isn't for you.And that's just for starters. Legends is unique. Like it or not. End.
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby TKK 140 on Fri 04 Aug 2017, 8:02 pm

and the Sea Fury"Joker " routine. Stands out as being one of the best routines this year for me.

Andy were you at Duxford on the Saturday? Just wondered as you seem well informed on the Berlin Express canopy matter.
TKK 140

Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby The Baron on Fri 04 Aug 2017, 8:11 pm

Elliott Marsh wrote:http://vintageaviationecho.com/flying-legends-25/

A different perspective from a 24-year Legends veteran, if anyone's interested in debating the show further!


And there it is! Thanks Elliott.
Is there any part of Legends you feel you could criticize in any way? Because it reads just like a Flying Legends promotion.
Surely there must be something you don't like, or feel could be done better?

St24, you're absolutely right. The sight and sound of 10+ Spitfires is incredible. It really is. However, there's so many missed opportunities. Not swapping displays from front to back, short, too short, sequences by the stars yet 10 minutes of Jungmann aerobatics. With the plethora of exotic and rare aircraft on the circuit it's a shame that the US sent across a pair of P-51s (great that they supported and great that the B came over) but what about the Mosquito, B-25s, Sturmovik, B-17s, B-29s etc. Even in Europe there are aircraft that could come by never do. I'd have loved to have seen 5 Hurricanes but unfortunately it was announced too late and seems to have attracted too little attention. Another missed opportunity?
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Fri 04 Aug 2017, 8:20 pm

Hangar 11's BE505 is back in the air now after a two year lay off - given that H11's Mustang is on the schedule for two of the remaining Shuttleworth shows and could easily be swapped for the Hurribomber, I wouldn't rule out 5 Hurricanes being a possibility again before the end of the year... :shock:
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby Mike on Fri 04 Aug 2017, 8:41 pm

The Baron wrote:...the US sent across a pair of P-51s (great that they supported and great that the B came over) but what about the Mosquito, B-25s, Sturmovik, B-17s, B-29s etc. Even in Europe there are aircraft that could come by never do.

'The US' (whatever that is supposed to mean) didn't send anything. Dan Friedkin did, specifically to take part in The Horsemen at Duxford and the Heritage Flight at Fairford, two operations that he pretty much funds out of his own pocket. So far the Friedkins have sent, by my reckoning, seven different Mustangs to Duxford over the years, not to mention a couple of Grumman biplanes plus their UK-based Spitfires and P-47 and put together the excellent Eagle Squadron tribute a few years back. The combined cost of all that over the years must be absolutely eye-watering to mere mortals such as ourselves. It seems somewhat churlish to complain that they haven't brought a bunch of other people's aircraft too!
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby Mike on Fri 04 Aug 2017, 8:44 pm

LN Strike Eagle wrote:Hangar 11's BE505 is back in the air now after a two year lay off - given that H11's Mustang is on the schedule for two of the remaining Shuttleworth shows and could easily be swapped for the Hurribomber, I wouldn't rule out 5 Hurricanes being a possibility again before the end of the year... :shock:

I would have thought that you would have realised by now that Mr T, for all his many qualities, does not play well with others.
Mike

Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Fri 04 Aug 2017, 8:47 pm

Mike wrote:
LN Strike Eagle wrote:Hangar 11's BE505 is back in the air now after a two year lay off - given that H11's Mustang is on the schedule for two of the remaining Shuttleworth shows and could easily be swapped for the Hurribomber, I wouldn't rule out 5 Hurricanes being a possibility again before the end of the year... :shock:

I would have thought that you would have realised by now that Mr T, for all his many qualities, does not play well with others.

Ah, so you'll speak to me on the internet then... :whistle: :grin:

I've seen him in formation with others on a few occasions.
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby Elliott Marsh on Fri 04 Aug 2017, 8:48 pm

The Baron wrote:And there it is! Thanks Elliott.


I couldn't leave you waiting too long now, could I?!

Is there any part of Legends you feel you could criticize in any way?


Sure - and I have. Reds were very poor. The Hawk sequence on Saturday was lacking any spark. Display line was more distant but everyone's playing by the same rules. I found distances fine, it didn't spoil the show for me. The mock air race wasn't to everyone's taste but seeing that quartet together was tremendous.

Because it reads just like a Flying Legends promotion.


Because I actually enjoy the show rather than pulling it to pieces for increasingly specific reasons year on year? I think there's a fundamental difference here - call it spiritual, philosophical, however you want to describe it - in how we view Legends and probably airshows in general. I can go chapter and verse but I doubt it'd hold any weight.

I'll stand by every word written, and I'd happily debate it with anyone face to face if they spot me at an airshow if anyone doubts the genuineness of my enthusiasm! DanO and I don't see eye to eye on a lot of things, for example, but we've discussed our thoughts on various points in-person. It's good to talk.

Surely there must be something you don't like, or feel could be done better?


Without rewriting CAP 403, just the stuff mentioned above.

St24, you're absolutely right. The sight and sound of 10+ Spitfires is incredible. It really is. However, there's so many missed opportunities. Not swapping displays from front to back, short, too short, sequences by the stars yet 10 minutes of Jungmann aerobatics.


Short sequences by the stars, like the Hurricanes having their formation passes, tail chase and solo? Berlin Express being given six display slots? Frenesi flying in the marquee act? Everything was given good time at Legends. I honestly can't think of one display that felt shorter than anything else. I'll take a stop watch next time.

Also the whole thing about swapping displays? I'm not saying it isn't possible but yay for giving pilots double the workload to deal with.

With the plethora of exotic and rare aircraft on the circuit it's a shame that the US sent across a pair of P-51s (great that they supported and great that the B came over)


It doesn't work like that, I'm afraid. Costs, logistics, insurance, pilots, paperwork, the desire of the operators to ship or fly their priceless aircraft across the Atlantic. There are likely dozens of reasons why you couldn't just break down and crate up a bloody IL-2 - an aircraft that doesn't leave its home base. Honestly, do you *really* think it's that easy?! Can we also just take a moment to appreciate the fact that three years ago a P-26, one of the world's rarest vintage aircraft, was sent over by Planes of Fame to no fanfare from the jaded enthusiasts 'cause it didn't do enough topside passes. That's what Legends is dealing with, that's the fine line between amazing and dire.

Also see: Mike's post above.

Even in Europe there are aircraft that could come by never do.


Pilots, insurance, CAA, availability, money, politics and operator agreement - to name a few of the myriad reasons likely preventing their participation. Legends booking the bulk of available European warbirds in recent years wasn't enough, I doubt there's anything they could book that would please some people in all honesty.

I'd have loved to have seen 5 Hurricanes but unfortunately it was announced too late and seems to have attracted too little attention. Another missed opportunity?


No. Literally, unequivocally, no. Practically every single person I bumped into was high on Hurrimania. On that note, a good friend of mine who has been doing airshows since the 1970s was in tears at that formation, having waited decades to see five Hurricanes flying together. Moribund.
Elliott Marsh

Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby Mattster256 on Fri 04 Aug 2017, 9:04 pm

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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby Elliott Marsh on Fri 04 Aug 2017, 9:13 pm

boff180 wrote:Each to their own I guess


A lot of it will boil down to that, I think. It's all subjective - I spent my childhood, teens and all my adult life so far attending Legends; it's gone from a family outing to an opportunity to meet dozens of friends from around the globe, with an airshow that attracts exactly the kind of aircraft I have a genuine passion (I loathe the overuse of that word, but struggle to find any other way to honestly describe it) for as the backdrop. It's less frenetic than it once was, and there are fewer examples of certain types (whilst other unique aeroplanes have been restored to flying condition, offering arguably a richer variety than we once had), but Legends still gives me that kick of adrenaline that no other show does. I love the whole thing - wandering up and down the main drag several times in the morning, joining a big group of international friends on the crowdline, relaxing for the flying and enjoying it for what it is without looking for reasons to critique. I wouldn't have it any other way, in all honesty.

RIAT is an interesting comparison, and I'm drawn again to the word "subjective" - I was left feeling rather cold by the flying at RIAT, with the exception of the B-2 and Su-27, and even they didn't come close to giving me the buzz I got at Legends. Trying to describe exactly why is quite difficult because it's so personal.
Last edited by Elliott Marsh on Fri 04 Aug 2017, 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Flying Legends 2017

Postby st24 on Fri 04 Aug 2017, 9:42 pm

The Baron wrote: yet 10 minutes of Jungmann aerobatics.

The much maligned Jugmann slot that occupies an insignificant part (in minutes) of the programme yet gives us all 10 minutes kick back of well flown, if a little high and sedate aerobatics to catch our breath before another onslaught of piston fighter mayhem, usually performed while other machines are displaying underneath- perfect "lazy lunch" scenario in my book. Elliot sums it up far more eloquently than many, but it is a personal thing. For me that opening Spitifre tailchase, the non stop action let alone the unique closing item of the balbo; that's 20 ish 70+ish year old fighters that shaped the world we live in in formation, the sound alone should make your knees tremble.....
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