Problem Solving Duxford

Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby blackcat on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 8:27 am

Pen Pusher wrote:
strangelookingalien wrote:There are going to be a lot of disappointed people this weekend when they realise the most contemporary fighter they have is from the 1950s...


No there isn't. Just a handful of enthusiasts who put their own spin on the word contemporary.

You got it right though, for Duxford 'modern contemporary fighters' are those from the 50's, as I've said before but got shouted down. And will again now.

Brian


So clearly Duxford also has an Identity Crisis.
Last year September Airshow ( Battle of Britain) had a Fly past by F15Es and the Typhoon .2014 had a Tornado GR4 flypast ,so why would you not expect a fast jet at' Meet the Fighters.'

Seems to me that Duxford needs to bin the modern aircraft and become a 100% historical airfield with only up to say 1960s, aircraft, At least people will know what to expect, or keep it the same format and charge people based on How big/small the flying display is and accordingly and make under 16s free,

BTW I done Hendon Saturday ,Very enjoyable and cheap for a family but still wish I could have done Duxford but can't justify that much money.

Thanks
Last edited by blackcat on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby Thoughtful_Flyer on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 8:37 am

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
Pen Pusher wrote:
strangelookingalien wrote:There are going to be a lot of disappointed people this weekend when they realise the most contemporary fighter they have is from the 1950s...


No there isn't. Just a handful of enthusiasts who put their own spin on the word contemporary.

You got it right though, for Duxford 'modern contemporary fighters' are those from the 50's, as I've said before but got shouted down. And will again now.

Brian


Christ, Brian, even for such a blinkered defender of Duxford as you, that's quite some blind spot.

"Contemporary" in this instance clearly meant fighter(s) current, and in-service.


From a technical point of view you are probably right.

However, what you and others on here keep forgetting is that distinction will be totally lost on 90% or more of the average airshow audience! OK, some of them may be a bit disappointed that they didn't see a very noisy jet with bunsen burners on the back but that is as far as it goes!
Last edited by Thoughtful_Flyer on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby andygolfer on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 8:38 am

Dan O'Hagan wrote:Christ, Brian, even for such a blinkered defender of Duxford as you, that's quite some blind spot.

"Contemporary" in this instance clearly meant fighter(s) current, and in-service.


would you please try to refrain from blaspheming, I find it offensive.

now re the calls to do away with the enclosures I'm a bit offended by the suggestion that they should be done away with as I see that as one of my benefits as a FoD member, virtually guaranteed a seat, uncrowded, tee and coffee (plus biscuits) provided with a request for a donation and nice toilets without a walk. It's not the sole reason i'm a FoD but it does make going to the shows far more enjoyable for an old person like me - even my wife is going with me this weekend as she likes the comparative luxury of the enclosure.

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Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby rdchawk on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 9:27 am

Pen Pusher wrote:
strangelookingalien wrote:There are going to be a lot of disappointed people this weekend when they realise the most contemporary fighter they have is from the 1950s...


No there isn't. Just a handful of enthusiasts who put their own spin on the word contemporary.

You got it right though, for Duxford 'modern contemporary fighters' are those from the 50's, as I've said before but got shouted down. And will again now.

Brian


So whats your spin on this from Duxford website

Exploring the role of the fighter in war and conflict, The Duxford Air Show: Meet the Fighters demonstrates the speed and agility of fighter aircraft, past and present.
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Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby neilos on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 9:31 am

What some of you are forgetting is, the price of the airshow ticket, also gains you entrance to all the hangers to have a mooch around before the display starts. You're not just paying to watch the display. Because of which, DX will, probably never reduce the price.

Getting rid of the rip off catering will be a start!
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Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby rdchawk on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 9:35 am

neilos wrote:What some of you are forgetting is, the price of the airshow ticket, also gains you entrance to all the hangers to have a mooch around before the display starts. You're not just paying to watch the display. Because of which, DX will, probably never reduce the price.

Getting rid of the rip off catering will be a start!


And as has been mentioned before - access to hangars is nice but trying to get a good photo is nigh on impossible and best to be viewed on non show days.
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Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby Dragon Rapide on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 9:40 am

Neilos - That's a point I have emphasised several times but few members are impressed by it. As far as I am concerned it sets Duxford apart as an airshow venue, along with a couple of others, and cannot be ignored.

Well I have taken hundreds of photos in the hangars on show days....in any case hundreds of visitors do not take photos. Another example of viewing the expensive through the enthusiast's eyes without taking account of the fact oft repeated that we are small minority.
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Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 9:47 am

rdchawk wrote:
Pen Pusher wrote:
strangelookingalien wrote:There are going to be a lot of disappointed people this weekend when they realise the most contemporary fighter they have is from the 1950s...


No there isn't. Just a handful of enthusiasts who put their own spin on the word contemporary.

You got it right though, for Duxford 'modern contemporary fighters' are those from the 50's, as I've said before but got shouted down. And will again now.

Brian


So whats your spin on this from Duxford website

Exploring the role of the fighter in war and conflict, The Duxford Air Show: Meet the Fighters demonstrates the speed and agility of fighter aircraft, past and present.

It must surely mean you can watch fighter aircraft from the past in the present? ;-)
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Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby rdchawk on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 9:57 am

Can just see Duxford scrambling to see which lesser known air force are using the Hawk as a fighter aircraft.
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Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby austinp on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 10:08 am

I've often thought kicking (not literally) people out as soon as the display has finished is a bad move. There is a museum that some people may not have explored. Extend closure time to 7pm, and let people continue to explore and spend money!

I put comments like this on post-show surveys, God knows why they don't do it!

Yup, scrap the parking charge, its daft!

Mmmm, either reduce Program or Flightline price, not both. The first time I did the Flightline, it cost a couple of quid, it sure has shot up in a short space of time; but it hasn't put me off.

And I have to agree, there seems to be an every increasing number of enclosures, time to cut them back.

Separately, I messaged IWM Duxford on Facebook, asking if any modern types are likely to be added to Meet The Fighters, there reply was "we can't comment"....
austinp

Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 10:09 am

Dragon Rapide wrote:Neilos - That's a point I have emphasised several times but few members are impressed by it. As far as I am concerned it sets Duxford apart as an airshow venue, along with a couple of others, and cannot be ignored.

Well I have taken hundreds of photos in the hangars on show days....in any case hundreds of visitors do not take photos. Another example of viewing the expensive through the enthusiast's eyes without taking account of the fact oft repeated that we are small minority.

The museum doesn't enter my thought process. It may well be there, it may account for a chunk of the ticket price but it's not much of a draw to me by itself, let alone on an airshow day. I would be there for the show and nothing else. As pointed out, if you want a spot at the fence you're likely to have to stake it out for hours, so in that regard it is completely unlike Shuttleworth, where I will always take a look around the hangars (to view restorations like the Spitfire, and to look around the book stalls rather than look around the exhibits themselves).

I'm not convinced by the "minority" argument that persists on here either. I don't think many people take the family for an expensive day out at an airshow unless someone in the family has at least a passing interest. As I've said countless times before, I was introduced to airshows by my dad, who took my brothers and I along to airshows because they were events he enjoyed and thought we would too. Neither of my brothers took an interest but I did, and went on to make airfix kits, collect part-work magazines etc that fuelled my interest between the annual visit to Southend and maybe Duxford. My father would never have been classed as your "stereotypical" enthusiast back then, or even now (my younger brother actually has better aircraft recognition skills than him, despite having zero interest), but we ended up at airshows because someone was interested and took everyone else along. We never went to a boat race or cricket match because dad wasn't interested those.

You don't need to have a notebook or a big lens to have an enthusiasm or interest in the subject matter. What is the distinction between an "enthusiast" and the general public, or my father (who attends lots of airshows, with a camera, enjoys a nice topside, has opinions on most airshow related matters, buys airshow DVDs but doesn't use any internet forums on the subject and couldn't even pick out the BBMF owned Spitfires from a line-up) and "an enthusiast"?
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Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby Pen Pusher on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 10:18 am

austinp wrote:I've often thought kicking (not literally) people out as soon as the display has finished is a bad move. There is a museum that some people may not have explored. Extend closure time to 7pm, and let people continue to explore and spend money!

I put comments like this on post-show surveys, God knows why they don't do it!


From their last e-mail

Car parks will open at 7am and close at 7pm.

Stay and enjoy the atmosphere after the flying display has ended. Entertainment will continue until 6.30pm and the whole museum will be open to explore.


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Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby pb643 on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 10:27 am

Dan O'Hagan wrote:I'd also add, make tickets for young children a LOT cheaper. Talk of paying £19 for a 5 year old's admission is frankly obscene.

I drove along the A505 during the May show, and the "freeloaders" watching from the roadside weren't enthusiasts, they were families with young children. At those prices, can you really blame them?


That for me is the biggest single factor regarding this coming weekend.

Old Warden £22.50 for me, free for my son. Duxford £29.50 for me and £19 for my son. Total: £48.50 for Duxford and £22.50 for Shuttleworth. My wife and less enthusiastic son can come along to Old Warden and we will still spend less than Duxford for two of us!

Having said that I think that Duxford is far better suited to family visits, but not for a £50 premium.

Phil
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Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby Dragon Rapide on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 11:24 am

The fact that the museum does not enter any individual's "thought process" is surely irrelevant. It's there and it's open.

I agree that there will be anything from a passing general interest to a passion to see the Red Arrows or for the BBMF or a more committed interest in WW2 flyers etc. A host and multiple shades of enthusiasm all of which I would separate from the enthusiasm, deep knowledge of and the hobbiest's interest s represented by members of this and other aviation fora.
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Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 11:34 am

It's there and it's open, but it's not the reason people are there in such numbers. People are there for an airshow.

So what you're actually saying is that enthusiasts with a forum membership are in a minority? That I might agree with, but again, it's wrong to assume that a forum membership is a distinguishing factor between someone who cares about the hobby and someone that does not, because I've met many people through the years that have a vast knowledge of aircraft, airshows, even display pilots and routines, none of whom are forum members. Equally I've met people with massive lenses that thought a P-40 was a Wildcat and I've had people "spotting" outside military bases with a camera that have asked me what it is that they're watching.
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Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby Dragon Rapide on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 11:55 am

Perhaps I haven't made the point clearly. The fact that it is there and open and visited throughout the day and by implication of other posters in large numbers is a testament to its value in the ticket price.

Indeed and we can bat that argument around the ground for ever. In much the sane way we can distinguish those who in huge numbers attend motorsport because they enjoy the spectacle crave the element of danger and excitement but might not understand the detailed technical knowledge of the intricacies of the sport as do the far fewer who assess the car's finer points in the paddock.
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Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby st24 on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 12:03 pm

LN Strike Eagle wrote: I've had people "spotting" outside military bases with a camera that have asked me what it is that they're watching.


Usually up the loop for me!! :facepalm:
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Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby AFKAMC on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 12:35 pm

pb643 wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote:I'd also add, make tickets for young children a LOT cheaper. Talk of paying £19 for a 5 year old's admission is frankly obscene.

I drove along the A505 during the May show, and the "freeloaders" watching from the roadside weren't enthusiasts, they were families with young children. At those prices, can you really blame them?


That for me is the biggest single factor regarding this coming weekend.

Old Warden £22.50 for me, free for my son. Duxford £29.50 for me and £19 for my son. Total: £48.50 for Duxford and £22.50 for Shuttleworth. My wife and less enthusiastic son can come along to Old Warden and we will still spend less than Duxford for two of us!

Having said that I think that Duxford is far better suited to family visits, but not for a £50 premium.

Phil


I think that the museum itself (i.e. on a non-airshow day) offers family ticket options of 1 adult/2 kids, or 2 adults/3 kids.

However, on airshow day, the only family tickets available are for 2 adults, with either 2 or 3 kids.

Maybe for future shows, it might be worth querying Duxford as to why the airshow family ticket options seem to be less flexible?

Always assuming I haven’t missed something, of course! (Not a problem for me, as none of my kids would be interested in attending, especially if they needed to get up early to do so!)
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Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby Dragon Rapide on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 12:56 pm

Ah! I can see they need training like I was and mine were!!! :lol:
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Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby DOUGHNUT on Wed 07 Sep 2016, 9:52 am

Several things have caused Duxford problems. Some they can resolve, some they can not.

1) Advance tickets are a big put off for families. Busy lives often mean changes of plan. Example dad wants to go to Duxford, so buys tickets for the family, then at the last minute children are invited to a party and will not be going.
2) Price of airshow tickets. IWM say that it is only £10+ (?) more than standard museum admission. Well in my opinion museum admission is to high to start with.
3) Car parking charge. For most family groups it is not an option to use off site parking. Its a joke to be charged and not even be able to sit and watch from the car ! How long will it be before parking meters go up for standard museum admission ?
4) Complaints about the cost of food. I do not know how much IWM charge the food vendors, but if they charged less then IWM could demand (fix) a lower price for drinks and basic burgers. Same goes for the cafe options during a standard museum day. IWM charges a food concession 'rent' to be there all year, the vendor then has to charge more to make a profit.
5) Flightline walk, program, VIP enclosures. If you dont want, dont buy.

The following are out of IWM control, but they should try harder to work around the problem.

1) Car parking and access to the the M11 I would guess that 90% of the traffic want to use either North or South bound M11. Airshows are big events, except that there will be delays.
2) Airshow safety and the CAA. IWM have to work within the rules, sadly IWM should be the best people to write those rules. Safety is everybody concern. The flightlines did not work in May, they were fine in July, but September appears to be half and half.
3) Airshow dates clashing. Well Duxford and Southport are not in the same area, only issue is sharing of aircraft. Its up to all airshow organisers to work together to share aircraft and share costs.
4) CAA rules are preventing the private operation of certain aircraft types and restricting what they can be used for. The Swedish Draken and Viggen are prevented from flying at UK airshows for this reason, but have safely flown all over Europe this year. IWM and others should be lobbying CAA to allow more freedom, within reasonable rules, to allow groups to fly and display.
5) Military budgets have been reduced and service aircraft and pilots are simply not available. ie no RAF Typhoon or any other fast jets from Europe.

Will airshows survive at Duxford ? I hope so, it is a good location, with lots to see and entertain the enthusiast and public / family alike With the crowd line amendments from July, the loss of the Tank Bank was not a fatal blow, changes to the CAA rules re display line are still needed. More support to / from the people who own and fly the display aircraft both military and civil is required. Without planes and pilots, you have no airshow.
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Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby st24 on Wed 07 Sep 2016, 10:48 am

DOUGHNUT wrote:2) Price of airshow tickets. IWM say that it is only £10+ (?) more than standard museum admission. Well in my opinion museum admission is to high to start with.
Paul


That's always confused me - why is there a charge (yes, I think too high too!) to Duxford but not the other IWMs??
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Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby Pen Pusher on Wed 07 Sep 2016, 10:52 am

HMS Belfast - £16

Churchill War Rooms - £19

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Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby The Baron on Wed 07 Sep 2016, 11:45 am

Pen Pusher wrote:HMS Belfast - £16

Churchill War Rooms - £19

brian


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Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby Pen Pusher on Wed 07 Sep 2016, 11:46 am

IWM North - Free :biggrin:

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Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Wed 07 Sep 2016, 12:11 pm

Can't help thinking Brian is actually the Marvel Superhero that didn't make the cut. Bimbleman - ready in the blink of an eye to rush to Duxford's aid. With his trusty sidekick Sony. :grin:
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