Problem Solving Duxford

Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby Pen Pusher on Wed 07 Sep 2016, 12:13 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Wed 07 Sep 2016, 12:15 pm

Good to see it taken the intended way, Brian.
Dan O'Hagan

Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby hmeasures on Wed 07 Sep 2016, 1:03 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:Can't help thinking Brian is actually the Marvel Superhero that didn't make the cut. Bimbleman - ready in the blink of an eye to rush to Duxford's aid. With his trusty sidekick Sony. :grin:


Maybe so but at least he actually gets out and attends airshows instead of sitting on a forum moaning about them (despite not actually going).
hmeasures

Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Wed 07 Sep 2016, 1:08 pm

hmeasures wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote:Can't help thinking Brian is actually the Marvel Superhero that didn't make the cut. Bimbleman - ready in the blink of an eye to rush to Duxford's aid. With his trusty sidekick Sony. :grin:


Maybe so but at least he actually gets out and attends airshows instead of sitting on a forum moaning about them (despite not actually going).


A show gets my custom when it is actually worth attending. No point spending money if the product won't satisfy.

Naturally, those who get free tickets from owners/operators/organisers won't appreciate that.
Dan O'Hagan

Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby hmeasures on Wed 07 Sep 2016, 2:01 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
hmeasures wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote:Can't help thinking Brian is actually the Marvel Superhero that didn't make the cut. Bimbleman - ready in the blink of an eye to rush to Duxford's aid. With his trusty sidekick Sony. :grin:


Maybe so but at least he actually gets out and attends airshows instead of sitting on a forum moaning about them (despite not actually going).


A show gets my custom when it is actually worth attending. No point spending money if the product won't satisfy.

Naturally, those who get free tickets from owners/operators/organisers won't appreciate that.


Let's not forget you were singing from the rooftops earlier this season about supporting and saving UK airshows. Some Damn fine double standard going on. To recap;

While we MUST support airshows, we must not support them blindly. If an airshow is reduced to watching aeroplanes 1,000ft up two miles from the crowd-line


Yes, the first show at shuttleworth was disappointing and the Duxford May show equally so, but since then the shows have been fantastic. Fly Navy was a standout and Legends too was fantastic despite the loss of the Tank Bank. On my last visit to shuttleworth it was great to see the old lines back with some particularly energetic displays of the Demon and Hurricane, amongst others. Of course, if you'd been you'd probably have enjoyed it but instead you decide to moan.

Hope your "role as an enthusiast" to save UK airshows is going well, as on the face of it it seems you're on a crusade to put people off them, along with pilot witch-hunts.
hmeasures

Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby AFKAMC on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 12:18 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
hmeasures wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote:Can't help thinking Brian is actually the Marvel Superhero that didn't make the cut. Bimbleman - ready in the blink of an eye to rush to Duxford's aid. With his trusty sidekick Sony. :grin:


Maybe so but at least he actually gets out and attends airshows instead of sitting on a forum moaning about them (despite not actually going).


A show gets my custom when it is actually worth attending. No point spending money if the product won't satisfy.

Naturally, those who get free tickets from owners/operators/organisers won't appreciate that.


Sorry, Dan, I hope you don't mind, but I've taken the liberty of making a few minor corrections to your previous post:

A show gets my custom when it is, in my opinion, worth attending. No point in me spending money if the product won't satisfy my particular needs.
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Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby The Baron on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 6:42 pm

AFKAMC wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote:
hmeasures wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote:Can't help thinking Brian is actually the Marvel Superhero that didn't make the cut. Bimbleman - ready in the blink of an eye to rush to Duxford's aid. With his trusty sidekick Sony. :grin:


Maybe so but at least he actually gets out and attends airshows instead of sitting on a forum moaning about them (despite not actually going).


A show gets my custom when it is actually worth attending. No point spending money if the product won't satisfy.

Naturally, those who get free tickets from owners/operators/organisers won't appreciate that.


Sorry, Dan, I hope you don't mind, but I've taken the liberty of making a few minor corrections to your previous post:

A show gets my custom when it is, in my opinion, worth attending. No point in me spending money if the product won't satisfy my particular needs.


What's wrong in having an opinion? Dan's not alone.
I didn't attend Cosford, Biggin Hill, Bournemouth or any Duxford show this year (when I normally would) because there was either a better alternative abroad or because the line up simply wasn't good enough, in my opinion.
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Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby tankbuster81 on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 9:37 pm

This year the scene has been more dire than ever. Duxford has become more boring year in year out, same aircraft, same tired routine's ,and everything so overpriced. The Autumn show for me used to be good,as it seemed to offer something different, now that has gone i don't visit anymore. They have had lottery funding, have many organisations on the airfield no doubt paying rent, and yet seem intent on ripping off folk in every way imaginable, from Museum only cost's to Airshows, Flight-line Walks, heavily inflated pricing for children , and now Parking, and so on. I used to love the venue, but unfortunately due to the aforementioned i have now lost all of my affection.
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Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby Dragon Rapide on Fri 09 Sep 2016, 4:46 am

I agree with you about the loss of the Autumn show. But the other items you criticise, whilst arguable, have existed for years, apart from the parking charge, so why fall out of love now? Your criticisms could have been equally arguable five years ago.
Listen to that Gipsy music.....

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Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby tankbuster81 on Fri 09 Sep 2016, 8:02 am

Dragon Rapide wrote:I agree with you about the loss of the Autumn show. But the other items you criticise, whilst arguable, have existed for years, apart from the parking charge, so why fall out of love now? Your criticisms could have been equally arguable five years ago.


I haven't been for over 5 years now, and sadly cannot see myself returning in the near future.
Don't bother running, you'll only die tired!!
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Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby Dragon Rapide on Fri 09 Sep 2016, 11:47 am

Well this is my first year for very many without a trip to Duxford, for no other reason than it is no longer domestically or logistically feasible. But that's by the by - I certainly would have attended Legends and probably this weekend, if it had been possible.
Listen to that Gipsy music.....

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Dragon Rapide

Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby DaveBr on Fri 09 Sep 2016, 12:18 pm

In the interest of balance...

I don't believe Duxford is broken. The 3 Duxford airshow weekends remain amongst my favourite weekends of each year, as they have been for the last 15 years.

To address some of the common complaints:
Food - I have been to all but 2 Duxford airshows since 2001. I have never been to an airshow and not taken my own food. I am at Duxford today, on a non-airshow day, and have brought my own food. This is a non-issue. It is entirely in your own control.

Programmes - Buy one if you think it's worth it. Or don't.

Flight Line Walk - would I prefer it was cheaper, or free? Of course. But if you stop and think, the fee is a necessary evil. Clearly they cannot allow every single person on the live side of the fence. The cost is a means to control numbers. My own family is a microcosm of this principle in action - my wife doesn't often come on the flight line as for her it's not value for money. I do because I like to get some static shots. It's not a problem for either of us. We just do our own thing for an hour or so.

Ticket price - I believe Duxford air shows are good value for money. On the basis of being one of my favourite leisure activities they are very good value for money. If you disagree you can choose not to attend. Sure, prices are rising. But so is the cost of putting on the show. That's just how it is. The cost comparison to other shows has no relevance to me. I am capable of judging each on its own merits.

Advance tickets - This is a non-issue for me. I would attend anyway so buying tickets in advance does not cause me a problem. In 15 years of attending almost every show I believe there have been 2 total wash-outs. That's a ratio I'm prepared to gamble on. Furthermore I understand and appreciate that it is a huge benefit for IWM to know how many people to expect on any particular day.

Parking fee - Of course, I would rather not pay this. However, I understand why it has been done. I believe the capacity at Duxford is restricted by parking before it is restricted by footfall. Therefore it is massively beneficial for Duxford to know how many cars are going to turn up. The chaos of over capacity shows of the past can be avoided.

Air show content - I am a warbird fan. Therefore I tend to enjoy the content of Duxford shows above that at other venues. Your tastes may differ. If so you can judge whether any particular shows is worth your time and money on its own merits. On the subject of this weekends show, I believe it to be a fantastic line up - the second best of the year for me (after Flying Legends). A modern fighter would have course fit the theme tremendously well. I believe the intention was to secure one. I don't believe for a moment that anyone at IWM has intentionally misled the public - seriously, think about this for a moment! Would it be good to have, say, a Typhoon included? Of course. But the absence of one aeroplane doesn't dictate whether a line up is strong or weak. If the attendance or otherwise of one or two individual aircraft ruins your day then you are often going to find airshows disappointing.

Free loading - I choose to pay to enter airshows. Because I enjoy them, I consider them value for money. I want to see them continue for as long as possible. Airshows therefore need and deserve my support. I am also a photographer. My personal need to "get the shot" does not out weigh my desire to support airshows. If I don't support airshows there won't be any shots to get.

As I said at the start, this is just for balance. I'm not expecting to change anyone's mind. Enjoy what we have while you can. Or don't. It's your choice.
Last edited by DaveBr on Fri 09 Sep 2016, 1:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby phreakf4 on Fri 09 Sep 2016, 12:21 pm

Many on here seem to think that "Joe Public" is becoming "bored" with "samey line-ups" and "filler acts".

A small but telling point. When the Red Arrows are announced as being about to start their display, how many of the crowd around you are looking to the rear ? Answer; not many because they attend few if any other shows each year and are not aware that the Arrows (almost) always commence their display from crowd rear. I and those who attend shows with me almost always get odd looks when we turn round to face crowd rear at that point.

I mention this in support of the notion (actually a fact borne out by many surveys) that a great majority of the crowd at any airshow will attend only one or two shows per year (often their "local" and Farnborough) and a further (large) proportion have never attended an air show before.

It is only the "enthusiast" such as I and others on this forum who will attend a sufficient number of shows per year that we become familiar with the "common" displays.

I have also pointed out on many occasions that were we enthusiasts to turn around and look at the crowd around us it would be a revelation to observe how few are "bothered" about photography.....

I recently attended the Wings and Wheels show at Dunsfold which was dismissed on here a "waste of time". Not so for the audience who not only enjoyed each "filler" item (the spontaneous applause was evidence of that) but the majority of whom braved the intermittent rain to watch most of the display despite the fact that the Red Arrows were the opening item of the flying section.
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Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby Dragon Rapide on Fri 09 Sep 2016, 1:20 pm

Three hearty cheers for the two preceding posts!!!
Listen to that Gipsy music.....

Dragon Rapide
Dragon Rapide

Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby Thoughtful_Flyer on Fri 09 Sep 2016, 1:33 pm

Dragon Rapide wrote:Three hearty cheers for the two preceding posts!!!


Make that six!
Thoughtful_Flyer

Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby st24 on Fri 09 Sep 2016, 11:31 pm

I completely get where you're coming from.and agree with many points but this-

DaveBr wrote:
Parking fee - Of course, I would rather not pay this. However, I understand why it has been done. I believe the capacity at Duxford is restricted by parking before it is restricted by footfall. Therefore it is massively beneficial for Duxford to know how many cars are going to turn up. The chaos of over capacity shows of the past can be avoided.

This can be done by issuing free parking tickets without making the customer pay for it. This is the biggest issue I have with the new Duxford regime and sums up yet again rip off Britain, moreover Duxford. As we've seen from.other shows that employ this system it does little to avoid the inevitable traffic chaos which has been part of airshows since the 1920s. Though it doesn't affect me the obscene child admission cost would put me off if I had a family to take too.
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Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby Dragon Rapide on Sat 10 Sep 2016, 5:00 am

Sorry ST - Rip off Britain?? You've been watching too much brainless TV! Obsene prices? Where there is free choice complaining about price and service is pointless. Suppliers will charge what they wish and customers will buy. If they don't then the supplier has got it wrong and will have to review his offer. There is nothing obsene about it neither is anyone being ripped off to use this overworked and loaded phrase.
Listen to that Gipsy music.....

Dragon Rapide
Dragon Rapide

Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby DaveBr on Sat 10 Sep 2016, 7:07 am

If the parking pass was free everyone would request one regardless of their eventual plans and IWM would be no better informed. By charging a fee it forces people to stop and think and plan accordingly.

If you think it's obscene, you could use park and ride, or public transport. Or not come at all. It's in your control. For me, an additional £5 doesn't make one of my favourite activities suddenly become a rip off.

I will concede one thing I can see no possible logic for and that's parking camper vans on the front row... wtf is that about?
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DaveBr

Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby Dragon Rapide on Sat 10 Sep 2016, 7:13 am

Yes - totally agree with your last paragraph!!
Listen to that Gipsy music.....

Dragon Rapide
Dragon Rapide

Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Sat 10 Sep 2016, 7:47 am

DaveBr wrote:If the parking pass was free everyone would request one regardless of their eventual plans and IWM would be no better informed. By charging a fee it forces people to stop and think and plan accordingly.

If you think it's obscene, you could use park and ride, or public transport. Or not come at all. It's in your control. For me, an additional £5 doesn't make one of my favourite activities suddenly become a rip off.

I will concede one thing I can see no possible logic for and that's parking camper vans on the front row... wtf is that about?


Another apologist for the indefensible.

To my recollection, only one "airshow" has tried charging for parking. And it was one of the most notorious failures in airshow history. Spirit of Adventure at Abingdon. Forever a stain on the RAF's reputation. People resent the charge, especially as it has been free for decades. From 0-£5 is a hell of a jump, especially on top of high-priced tickets.

A venue of the size, prestige and history of Duxford really shouldn't be getting things this badly wrong.
Dan O'Hagan

Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby DaveBr on Sat 10 Sep 2016, 8:00 am

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
Another apologist for the indefensible.


I was wondering if you have anything positive to say about airshows. A quick look through three pages worth of your recent posts hasn't revealed a positive comment. Have you considered taking up a different hobby?
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DaveBr

Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Sat 10 Sep 2016, 8:04 am

DaveBr wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote:
Another apologist for the indefensible.


I was wondering if you have anything positive to say about airshows. A quick look through three pages worth of your recent posts hasn't revealed a positive comment. Have you considered taking up a different hobby?


Other than "they still happen, just" what positive is there to say about the 2016 season?
Dan O'Hagan

Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby DaveBr on Sat 10 Sep 2016, 8:23 am

There are many of us still enjoying airshows. This year I would count the Bearcat at Old Warden, Richard Grace in the Hawker Fury and Nick Grey in EP120 at Legends amongst the best displays I've ever seen.

So, I'm still attending and enjoying airshows. I still find them to be a worthwhile expenditure of my time and money. But of course, I must be wrong, because airshow "enthusiasts" on an Internet forum dedicated to airshows never cease to tell me how terrible airshows are. How I'm being relentlessly ripped off. How I'd be better off doing almost anything else...

The relentless negativity on this website about its supposed raison d'être often staggers me. Of course, it is my decision to come here and I could simply stop but, despite everything, it's still a great resource for airshow news, information and reviews. I have to say though, that many days recently it's only marginally worth it.
Dave Brenchley Photography
http://www.davebrenchley.co.uk
DaveBr

Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby GUNMAN on Sat 10 Sep 2016, 10:21 am

It would appear Dan never went north of the border, Leuchars always had a charge for parking separate from the entrance ticket on the advance ticket booking form.

Tony
Last edited by GUNMAN on Sat 10 Sep 2016, 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
GUNMAN

Re: Problem Solving Duxford

Postby st24 on Sat 10 Sep 2016, 10:49 am

Dragon Rapide wrote: Obsene prices?

No, obscene- obviously too much daytime TV hasn't affected my ability to spell. So £19 for a 5 year old isn't too much to pay?! And you don't need to watch the telly to know that we are ripped off in the UK. Just go to a foreign show and/or put yourself into a European enthusiasts shoes coming to the UK for a show...
The only extra and above car parking airshow charge I recall was at Farnborough in the '70s that really annoyed my dad especially as it went straight to NCP...
You caaan't trust the system... Maaan!
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