September Air Show 2017

Re: September Air Show 2017

Postby UKTopgun on Tue 26 Sep 2017, 6:49 am

Was good to see Peter T bring Pegs to DX, something I don't remember happening in the past... Has Peter ever previously displayed there? It is odd as NW is a short hop away.
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Re: September Air Show 2017

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Tue 26 Sep 2017, 7:02 am

Yes, he was at one of the BoB shows a few years ago with the Hurricane.
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Re: September Air Show 2017

Postby GertrudetheMerciless on Tue 26 Sep 2017, 5:21 pm

eddywinch82 wrote:WW2 Fighters such as P-51 Mustangs or Spitfires, formating with a B17 or a Dakota is more difficult anyway, than say a Lancaster. Due to their slower acceleration. So the fighters, have join up with them at a slower speed.


Don't speculate. :tongue: :sleepy:

Rather draconian pruning of what was actually quite an informative topic. Commenting on what's clearly shown on a video is hardly speculation. Maybe some members are just upset that others may be more informed on a subject than they are, or are in a position to offer a professional opinion. Hey, people might even not bother taking the time and effort to offer such insights or opinion. The forum's loss.

Hey ho. :roll: No doubt the moderation stick of doom will wield its axe again.
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Re: September Air Show 2017

Postby jl151080 on Tue 26 Sep 2017, 5:38 pm

I go to all of the Duxford shows despite living 180 miles away, and this show was exceptional. I never thought I'd get to see 6 Hurricanes flying together, for starters.

My personal opinion is that Duxford offers good value for money. I bought early bird disabled tickets for the show, at a cost of around £12 each. I certainly can't complain about that.

In addition, I attend many shows and I must say the disabled parking available at Duxford is by far the best, though to get a spot by the fence I was in the queue for the car park before 7 am each day. Well worth it though, I'm looking forward to next year already.
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Re: September Air Show 2017

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Tue 26 Sep 2017, 9:32 pm

GertrudetheMerciless wrote:
eddywinch82 wrote:WW2 Fighters such as P-51 Mustangs or Spitfires, formating with a B17 or a Dakota is more difficult anyway, than say a Lancaster. Due to their slower acceleration. So the fighters, have join up with them at a slower speed.


Don't speculate. :tongue: :sleepy:

Rather draconian pruning of what was actually quite an informative topic. Commenting on what's clearly shown on a video is hardly speculation. Maybe some members are just upset that others may be more informed on a subject than they are, or are in a position to offer a professional opinion. Hey, people might even not bother taking the time and effort to offer such insights or opinion. The forum's loss.

Hey ho. :roll: No doubt the moderation stick of doom will wield its axe again.


A real shame the thread discussing a major piece of airshow news has been removed. Nothing in it broke any rules, it was a healthy vigourous debate which an impartial forum like this used to, and should encourage.

I do wonder if perhaps some staff members are a little too cozy with airshow organisers these days, as the blind "see no evil" championing of a pitifully weak Scampton has indicated.

Remember guys, the "old" UKAR fell apart because it suddenly became terrified of upsetting the RAF in case it meant certain members might miss out on access and invites.

Don't make the same mistake. If you're more concerned about buttering up airshow organisers and sweeping genuine news stories and debate under the rug, then you really have no clue about what UKAR has stood for over the past 21 years.
Dan O'Hagan

Re: September Air Show 2017

Postby aaron0288 on Tue 26 Sep 2017, 9:39 pm

GertrudetheMerciless wrote:
eddywinch82 wrote:WW2 Fighters such as P-51 Mustangs or Spitfires, formating with a B17 or a Dakota is more difficult anyway, than say a Lancaster. Due to their slower acceleration. So the fighters, have join up with them at a slower speed.


Don't speculate. :tongue: :sleepy:

Rather draconian pruning of what was actually quite an informative topic. Commenting on what's clearly shown on a video is hardly speculation. Maybe some members are just upset that others may be more informed on a subject than they are, or are in a position to offer a professional opinion. Hey, people might even not bother taking the time and effort to offer such insights or opinion. The forum's loss.

Hey ho. :roll: No doubt the moderation stick of doom will wield its axe again.


Pretty ridiculous how much has been removed from the thread. Like you said, what's the point on even posting anymore? I only commented on how I very rarely see a proper formation display practice on Fridays (oops, said it again...) and it was removed. Not speculation, just fact. Forum will eventually lose out as people just won't bother voicing their opinion anymore, or will get fed up of having to word their posts so as not to offend absolutely anyone. Maybe that's the end game though. To rid the forum of anyone who has a different opinion to the norm.
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Re: September Air Show 2017

Postby Tommy on Tue 26 Sep 2017, 10:25 pm

Cheers for all the wonderful accusations of bias, buttering up to organisers, and censoring all contrary opinions. We'll add it to all the criticism we receive for not doing enough moderating, providing gutter press with ammo, general damage to the hobby etc etc...

A thick skin is a must to run this place.

Anyway, please pay heed to Rule 11, chaps. Anyone has any real issues about a moderating decision, please be mature and take it up via PM with a staffer(s).
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Re: September Air Show 2017

Postby AFKAMC on Wed 27 Sep 2017, 8:48 am

Oddly enough, over on PPRUNE, where it seems people can speculate as to the causes of such incidents with impunity (and in some cases might even be qualified to do so, as apparently some on there are actually real life pilots), half of those posting seem to be more concerned about the supposedly high Duxford ticket prices.

It just goes to show, you can find congenital tightwads wherever you look. :smile:

(AFKAMC runs for cover.)
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Re: September Air Show 2017

Postby austinp on Wed 27 Sep 2017, 9:55 am

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
A real shame the thread discussing a major piece of airshow news has been removed. Nothing in it broke any rules, it was a healthy vigourous debate which an impartial forum like this used to, and should encourage.



????


The last 15 year's or so, I've attending the September Airshow at DX without fail. I like Duxford, it remains' full of surprises, and each visit I learn something new. 8 years ago, it was the first show I took my wife-to-be too, so that make's it a little more special for us both.

Unfortunately, I wasn't able to attend. 1) I had other plans. 2) I attended the fantastic Flying Legends. 3) There wasn't anything there I hadn't already seen at airshows this year. 4) I disagree with September show being put back 2 weeks. I'll break those down.

1) Sheffield 10k. PB of 53:11 :-)
2) A truly glorious day, and the first time attending it in 10 years.
3) Flying Legends, Cosford, and RIAT.
4) I notice the dates for next year have been released, and am sad to see the September show remains in it's new slot. I messaged IWM, and they said they do not want to clash with other airshows (has newbie Scampton forced their well-established hand?), and bad weather on the Saturday show in 2016!!!!! Do they think weather will be any better later in September? We live in England, the weather will be what it will be.

Anyway, as it happens, the weather looked to play ball this year, so I sort of wished I'd gone. Maybe next year, though I'm considering a certain event in Belgium...

Like many events, over the year's the price has gone up. I remember when the Flight Line was couple of quid, now it's £6. The Programme has been pretty solid I think. And then there is the "car park tax", which has everyone's back up.

I'm going to suggest something radical to DX. Do a single ticket that includes both parking and flight-line; £34 Early-Bird, £40 Standard Entry.

Any takers?
austinp

Re: September Air Show 2017

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Wed 27 Sep 2017, 10:25 am

austinp wrote:I'm going to suggest something radical to DX. Do a single ticket that includes both parking and flight-line; £34 Early-Bird, £40 Standard Entry.

Any takers?

I like it. :up:

They need to find a way to make it feel less like you're being charged for every aspect of the show individually, and a combined ticket with flightline access and car parking would certainly help in that regard. A good suggestion.
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Re: September Air Show 2017

Postby speedbird2639 on Wed 27 Sep 2017, 10:37 am

Dan O'Hagan wrote:

A real shame the thread discussing a major piece of airshow news has been removed. Nothing in it broke any rules, it was a healthy vigourous debate which an impartial forum like this used to, and should encourage.


It does seem odd that UKAR forum is hell bent on cutting its own throat by stamping down on seemingly any form of discussion. If 'the staff' are worried about speculation etc being seen by the tabloid press then how about a 'members only' area where 'controversial' topics can be moved for viewing and discussion only by established forum members (say 100 posts plus)* - I can't see a Daily Mail hack going to the trouble of creating 100 posts just so he can access the members only corner when the same topic is being discussed in plain sight on other forums.

(*) - or maybe one already exists and I just haven't been invited! :whistle:
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Re: September Air Show 2017

Postby Pen Pusher on Wed 27 Sep 2017, 11:06 am

austinp wrote:I'm going to suggest something radical to DX. Do a single ticket that includes both parking and flight-line; £34 Early-Bird, £40 Standard Entry.


And then the museum would be accused of ripping off people who don't come by car or do the flight line walk.

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Re: September Air Show 2017

Postby Thoughtful_Flyer on Wed 27 Sep 2017, 11:08 am

AFKAMC wrote:Oddly enough, over on PPRUNE, where it seems people can speculate as to the causes of such incidents with impunity (and in some cases might even be qualified to do so, as apparently some on there are actually real life pilots), half of those posting seem to be more concerned about the supposedly high Duxford ticket prices.


(AFKAMC runs for cover.)


Quite!
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Re: September Air Show 2017

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Wed 27 Sep 2017, 11:10 am

Pen Pusher wrote:
austinp wrote:I'm going to suggest something radical to DX. Do a single ticket that includes both parking and flight-line; £34 Early-Bird, £40 Standard Entry.


And then the museum would be accused of ripping off people who don't come by car or do the flight line walk.

Brian

He said "do a ticket". As in, an option.
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Re: September Air Show 2017

Postby Pen Pusher on Wed 27 Sep 2017, 11:29 am

Should have gone to Specsavers. :whistle:

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Re: September Air Show 2017

Postby AFKAMC on Wed 27 Sep 2017, 12:27 pm

LN Strike Eagle wrote:
austinp wrote:I'm going to suggest something radical to DX. Do a single ticket that includes both parking and flight-line; £34 Early-Bird, £40 Standard Entry.

Any takers?

I like it. :up:

They need to find a way to make it feel less like you're being charged for every aspect of the show individually, and a combined ticket with flightline access and car parking would certainly help in that regard. A good suggestion.


I don’t have a problem with the separate parking charge. When I went to the 2015 September air show (free parking), it took ages for the car park to clear after the show; this year (parking £5), it emptied out pretty rapidly. On that evidence, I’d suggest that either the parking fee has reduced the number of cars brought on site, or paid for better traffic management, or both. And I don’t think it makes sense to include the parking charge in a combined ticket; then 4 adults sharing a car, each having purchased a combined ticket, would pay 4 times over to park the same vehicle. You wouldn’t expect to pay more to park your car in an NCP car park, just because you’ve passengers with you.

The idea of a combined admission/flight line walk ticket makes more sense, I think. But they’d have to be careful not to make this TOO attractive an option, otherwise the flight line walk might suddenly get a lot more crowded; which would displease some, I imagine.
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Re: September Air Show 2017

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Wed 27 Sep 2017, 12:43 pm

So how do we explain every other airshow that has ever been staged without significant traffic jams or car parking chaos that didn't charge people to park then? How did they manage it, and how do they continue to manage it at most other venues, if the solution to traffic is to charge for car parking?

This is exactly why places charge for things like this - because they know they can walk all over the public and not only will they tolerate it, they'll begin to argue in support of it.
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Re: September Air Show 2017

Postby AFKAMC on Wed 27 Sep 2017, 1:11 pm

LN Strike Eagle wrote:So how do we explain every other airshow that has ever been staged without significant traffic jams or car parking chaos that didn't charge people to park then? How did they manage it, and how do they continue to manage it at most other venues, if the solution to traffic is to charge for car parking?

This is exactly why places charge for things like this - because they know they can walk all over the public and not only will they tolerate it, they'll begin to argue in support of it.


I’m not exactly arguing in support of a parking charge, just reporting the (admittedly limited) evidence of my own experience re. the improved traffic situation this year vs. 2015; maybe it had something to do with the imposition of a parking charge, maybe it didn't.

But fair point re. the policy at other shows, I don’t know why Duxford is different.

Given that there is a parking charge, though, I think my argument that it should be per vehicle, and not per person, is still valid.
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Re: September Air Show 2017

Postby austinp on Wed 27 Sep 2017, 1:21 pm

AFKAMC wrote:
LN Strike Eagle wrote:
austinp wrote:I'm going to suggest something radical to DX. Do a single ticket that includes both parking and flight-line; £34 Early-Bird, £40 Standard Entry.

Any takers?

I like it. :up:

They need to find a way to make it feel less like you're being charged for every aspect of the show individually, and a combined ticket with flightline access and car parking would certainly help in that regard. A good suggestion.


I don’t have a problem with the separate parking charge. When I went to the 2015 September air show (free parking), it took ages for the car park to clear after the show; this year (parking £5), it emptied out pretty rapidly. On that evidence, I’d suggest that either the parking fee has reduced the number of cars brought on site, or paid for better traffic management, or both. And I don’t think it makes sense to include the parking charge in a combined ticket; then 4 adults sharing a car, each having purchased a combined ticket, would pay 4 times over to park the same vehicle. You wouldn’t expect to pay more to park your car in an NCP car park, just because you’ve passengers with you.

The idea of a combined admission/flight line walk ticket makes more sense, I think. But they’d have to be careful not to make this TOO attractive an option, otherwise the flight line walk might suddenly get a lot more crowded; which would displease some, I imagine.



Good point regarding those who car share...

...The solution is obvious is it not. They allow a system where you book your tickets, and any option extras (hell, RIAT have the option of pre-ordering a discount Programme, what a great idea). And do a discount based on what you select. They could offer Super Early Bird, Early Bird and Standard rates also, a-la RIAT.

Technology wise, it's easy to do, and there are other websites that already do something similar.

This should cater for just about any eventuality.

When I did the flight-line walk for Flying Legends, it was unbelievably busy, never seen it as packed. Again, giving people the option to pre-book doesn't necessarily mean everyone will add it there and then.

Regarding exiting the car park, I too have noticed this. I put this down to people not all trying to leave at the same time, though their traffic management is the best I've seen (nearly on par with RIAT).

Thanks to all engaging in this
austinp

Re: September Air Show 2017

Postby Pen Pusher on Wed 27 Sep 2017, 1:36 pm

Don't suppose any one remembers the Canadian Lancaster visit when the museum car parks were full by 9AM and there was grid lock all day on the local roads and M11 from people trying to get in. The Police and County Council were not impressed and wanted some way of controlling the number of cars arriving at the air shows so advance booking and car park charging were brought in to encourage people to share transport and use the park & ride facility.

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Re: September Air Show 2017

Postby AFKAMC on Wed 27 Sep 2017, 1:54 pm

Pen Pusher wrote:Don't suppose any one remembers the Canadian Lancaster visit when the museum car parks were full by 9AM and there was grid lock all day on the local roads and M11 from people trying to get in. The Police and County Council were not impressed and wanted some way of controlling the number of cars arriving at the air shows so advance booking and car park charging were brought in to encourage people to share transport and use the park & ride facility.

Brian


Was the Canadian Lancaster there in September 2014? If I recall correctly, parking was still free the following year, but they requested you download and print off a parking pass to be displayed on your way in… which seemed a bit strange, but was something to do with traffic management, I guess? Then I think they finally introduced the parking charge in 2016?
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Re: September Air Show 2017

Postby Thoughtful_Flyer on Wed 27 Sep 2017, 2:20 pm

AFKAMC wrote:
Pen Pusher wrote:Don't suppose any one remembers the Canadian Lancaster visit when the museum car parks were full by 9AM and there was grid lock all day on the local roads and M11 from people trying to get in. The Police and County Council were not impressed and wanted some way of controlling the number of cars arriving at the air shows so advance booking and car park charging were brought in to encourage people to share transport and use the park & ride facility.

Brian


Was the Canadian Lancaster there in September 2014? If I recall correctly, parking was still free the following year, but they requested you download and print off a parking pass to be displayed on your way in… which seemed a bit strange, but was something to do with traffic management, I guess? Then I think they finally introduced the parking charge in 2016?


Maybe so but surely the main point of the charge is to try and reduce the number of cars parking onsite (and hence the traffic congestion). A free parking permit won't achieve this in any significant number.

Also by being advance ticket only (plus the need for a parking permit) they know exactly how many cars will be coming and hence whether they need to rent fields on the other side of the A505.
Thoughtful_Flyer

Re: September Air Show 2017

Postby hmeasures on Wed 27 Sep 2017, 7:45 pm

Thoughtful_Flyer wrote:
AFKAMC wrote:
Pen Pusher wrote:Don't suppose any one remembers the Canadian Lancaster visit when the museum car parks were full by 9AM and there was grid lock all day on the local roads and M11 from people trying to get in. The Police and County Council were not impressed and wanted some way of controlling the number of cars arriving at the air shows so advance booking and car park charging were brought in to encourage people to share transport and use the park & ride facility.

Brian


Was the Canadian Lancaster there in September 2014? If I recall correctly, parking was still free the following year, but they requested you download and print off a parking pass to be displayed on your way in… which seemed a bit strange, but was something to do with traffic management, I guess? Then I think they finally introduced the parking charge in 2016?


Maybe so but surely the main point of the charge is to try and reduce the number of cars parking onsite (and hence the traffic congestion). A free parking permit won't achieve this in any significant number.

Also by being advance ticket only (plus the need for a parking permit) they know exactly how many cars will be coming and hence whether they need to rent fields on the other side of the A505.


And we have a winner.
hmeasures

Re: September Air Show 2017

Postby Domvickery on Wed 27 Sep 2017, 7:57 pm

or why not give permits out for free but limit the number given out?

Yes traffic management has to be part of their reasoning, but I'd put money on the main reason being money making
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Re: September Air Show 2017

Postby phreakf4 on Wed 27 Sep 2017, 9:03 pm

Have none of those who actually a) attended the show and b) parked in the Western car park (between the American Air Museum and the Land Warfare Hall which is where I always park and thus from which experience I write) noticed that since the introduction of the parking charge there are now traffic marshals at the exits after the show whereas before there were none, which was in some measure responsible for the problems getting out (although I still believe that much of that was down to the selfish "Me first!" attitude which has seemingly become so common).

Now I wonder who pays for those marshals to remain on site all day?.......

Other posters are correct, it has been much easier to exit that car park after both Legends and the BoB show than has previously been the case. Whether this is also true of the other car parks I do not know.
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