Cosford 2015 - The Feedback Thread

Re: Cosford 2015 - The Feedback Thread

Postby boff180 on Wed 17 Jun 2015, 2:40 am

Just to point out the vast majority of people consider a Duxford style afternoon only display a rip off for the entry fee... That is one thing we don't want to see the major airshows taking up....
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Re: Cosford 2015 - The Feedback Thread

Postby Wrexham Mackem on Wed 17 Jun 2015, 6:30 am

May be I'm the only one and have said this before but the display is too long, compare to Duxford, display starts at 14.00 finishes around 17.30, the same with Old Warden.


Whilst respecting everyone is different this is bizarre to my mind. Why would you want less airshow? Hopefully you're in a minority of one there :smile:
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Re: Cosford 2015 - The Feedback Thread

Postby Clive1 on Wed 17 Jun 2015, 6:49 am

Morning and thanks for all the feedback. Give us a few days to collate all the information (the good and the bad!) and we'll get back to you with our thoughts on improvements for next year.

Clive


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Re: Cosford 2015 - The Feedback Thread

Postby phreakf4 on Wed 17 Jun 2015, 10:35 am

boff180 wrote:Just to point out the vast majority of people consider a Duxford style afternoon only display a rip off for the entry fee... That is one thing we don't want to see the major airshows taking up....


A slight correction...

Some enthusiasts may consider an afternoon only flying display a "rip-off" but the vast majority of the audience, those often disparagingly referred to on here as the "ignorant Joe Public" appreciate the chance to wander around the static displays and the "unnecessary" "tat stalls" during the morning because they do not intend to spend the whole day glued to the crowdline in the hope of getting "that" photograph which probably most of the other photographers will get anyway....

I was greatly amused to witness how many people had not stayed away from Cosford after some of the vitriol directed toward the organisers after the Ramex and MiG cancellations (not that much on here to be honest, but plenty on other fora and social media) suggesting that the show would see a massive drop in attendance as a result. It is true that I only made my mind up to go at the last minute and only obtained a ticket through the kindness of a member on here who had a spare. Also true that Ramex, the P-3 and the MiG were major factors in that decision, but I am also one who assumes that until a display item is lined up on the runway or running in for its display (if operating from elsewhere) it is not confirmed and I will not criticise the organisers if an item cancels at any time or for any reason.

My only small complaint is being directed into Car Park 7 (the farmer's field) after driving for over 2 1/2 hours (160 miles, leaving home just after 05:00) and that only because I still have some difficulty walking as a result of fairly recent surgery. Had I been fully fit it would have been no problem as the walk into the show was no worse than from the car park to my favoured spot near the crowdline at Shoreham but it was a little annoying to see those arriving much later (during a trip to the loo while the Sea King was displaying) being parked almost right behind the crowdline. I did not start the car engine to leave until almost 19:00 and had no problems getting out, despite being directed to leave by a different route to that by which I had arrived, the only problems on the drive home were in the M5/M6/M42 area where traffic congestion which almost certainly had nothing to do with the show resulted in me suffering cramp in my left foot as a result of much clutch use. Finally arrived home (North Hampshire) at 22:50.

Overall an enjoyable but very tiring day

Next major air show trip, a 90 mile drive to the "rip-off" afternoon display at Shuttleworth on July 5th.
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Re: Cosford 2015 - The Feedback Thread

Postby CJS on Wed 17 Jun 2015, 11:58 am

phreakf4 wrote:
boff180 wrote:Just to point out the vast majority of people consider a Duxford style afternoon only display a rip off for the entry fee... That is one thing we don't want to see the major airshows taking up....


A slight correction...

Some enthusiasts may consider an afternoon only flying display a "rip-off" but the vast majority of the audience, those often disparagingly referred to on here as the "ignorant Joe Public" appreciate the chance to wander around the static displays and the "unnecessary" "tat stalls" during the morning because they do not intend to spend the whole day glued to the crowdline in the hope of getting "that" photograph which probably most of the other photographers will get anyway....


Really? Find me one person on here or in the real world who would actually prefer a 3.5 hour afternoon flying display to a 6+ hour all day one for the same price. If you're not after award winning photos you're still allowed to leave the crowdline and go walkies (heck, you're even allowed to do it if you are there to take photos.

I think...)

I would be very surprised to find anyone with an interest in aviation opting for a shorter display over a longer one. :surrender:
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Re: Cosford 2015 - The Feedback Thread

Postby harkins on Wed 17 Jun 2015, 12:16 pm

That still doesn’t make sense though. To have half the display time you’d have half the aircraft. Surely it’s better to have a long display and then choose a point or two that suits you at which you can go for an amble round the static and stalls etc?

But if you really want an afternoon display only, just imagine that the mornings displays don’t exist and look round the site and then watch the afternoon show as if it is all there was anyway. And based on my experiences, I reckon an airshow could have one act, scheduled for half past ten at night, open the gates at seven in the morning and there would still be a rush to get the best spots along the crowd line and set up the deck chairs, brollys and wind brakes by eight.


EDIT: Ok, so I was replying to a post that seems to have been deleted whilst I was typing.
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Re: Cosford 2015 - The Feedback Thread

Postby phreakf4 on Wed 17 Jun 2015, 3:40 pm

Chris Strawson wrote:
phreakf4 wrote:
boff180 wrote:Just to point out the vast majority of people consider a Duxford style afternoon only display a rip off for the entry fee... That is one thing we don't want to see the major airshows taking up....


A slight correction...

Some enthusiasts may consider an afternoon only flying display a "rip-off" but the vast majority of the audience, those often disparagingly referred to on here as the "ignorant Joe Public" appreciate the chance to wander around the static displays and the "unnecessary" "tat stalls" during the morning because they do not intend to spend the whole day glued to the crowdline in the hope of getting "that" photograph which probably most of the other photographers will get anyway....


I would be very surprised to find anyone with an interest in aviation opting for a shorter display over a longer one. :surrender:

Really? Find me one person on here or in the real world who would actually prefer a 3.5 hour afternoon flying display to a 6+ hour all day one for the same price. If you're not after award winning photos you're still allowed to leave the crowdline and go walkies (heck, you're even allowed to do it if you are there to take photos.


As usual the point has been completely missed. As I have said before, try leaving the enthusiast enclave at the crowdline and taking a look at the "tat stalls" during the display (whether afternoon only or much longer) and you will find them well frequented even then. The start time of most flying displays is well advertised on web pages etc. so why do most people still turn up all through the morning, from "gates open" (usually the "hard-line enthusiasts" who quite frankly make themselves look ridiculous with their rush to claim "their spot" at the fence). The tapping of mallets as windbreaks are erected is becoming a standing joke at some air shows (and to be fair at other events such as motorsports; you will find nearly as many windbreaks and tents along the crowd fence at Brands Hatch as at Duxford). The "family audience" turns up all through the morning because they like to browse the stalls, (or at Duxford or Old Warden, the museum) and then find a spot (not necessarily at the crowdline, since they are (mostly) not overly bothered about photographs but just enjoy watching the flying, the great majority of which is visible even from several rows back. Then there are the many who actually(horror of horrors) will actually set up and watch the flying from their cars where this is possible such as, again, Duxford and (especially) Old Warden.

Also, "leave the crowdline and go walkies" any where except Old Warden and the odds of you ever getting that spot back unless you have some friends to "guard" it for you are remote at best....

The mistake made far too often on here is that the enthusiast view is that of the majority of the crowd; that is rarely the case. Equally it is a huge mistake to assume that the "vast majority" of those who attend air shows must be, at least to some degree, "enthusiasts". The fact is, as will be supported by any air show organiser, that "the vast majority" of any air show crowd except, again, at Old Warden or Duxford (particularly at Legends) tend to be just families looking for a day out. One member of the family may have a passing interest in aviation, but "the vast majority" would not describe themselves as "enthusiasts".

One thing I have noticed, especially over recent years, is that it is often the "enthusiast" who leaves the show early, once the exotic item they came to see has displayed, whilst "Joe Public" tend to stay on a bit longer. (Vulcan effect excepted, of course)

One last point. Many families probably would opt for a shorter display... There is nothing (other than the weather) which is quite as good at ruining an enjoyable show as a bored child who just wants to go home..... (speaking from bitter experience...)
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Re: Cosford 2015 - The Feedback Thread

Postby CJS on Wed 17 Jun 2015, 4:18 pm

phreakf4 wrote:
Chris Strawson wrote:
phreakf4 wrote:
boff180 wrote:Just to point out the vast majority of people consider a Duxford style afternoon only display a rip off for the entry fee... That is one thing we don't want to see the major airshows taking up....


A slight correction...

Some enthusiasts may consider an afternoon only flying display a "rip-off" but the vast majority of the audience, those often disparagingly referred to on here as the "ignorant Joe Public" appreciate the chance to wander around the static displays and the "unnecessary" "tat stalls" during the morning because they do not intend to spend the whole day glued to the crowdline in the hope of getting "that" photograph which probably most of the other photographers will get anyway....


I would be very surprised to find anyone with an interest in aviation opting for a shorter display over a longer one. :surrender:

Really? Find me one person on here or in the real world who would actually prefer a 3.5 hour afternoon flying display to a 6+ hour all day one for the same price. If you're not after award winning photos you're still allowed to leave the crowdline and go walkies (heck, you're even allowed to do it if you are there to take photos.


The mistake made far too often on here is that the enthusiast view is that of the majority of the crowd; that is rarely the case. Equally it is a huge mistake to assume that the "vast majority" of those who attend air shows must be, at least to some degree, "enthusiasts". The fact is, as will be supported by any air show organiser, that "the vast majority" of any air show crowd except, again, at Old Warden or Duxford (particularly at Legends) tend to be just families looking for a day out. One member of the family may have a passing interest in aviation, but "the vast majority" would not describe themselves as "enthusiasts"

One last point. Many families probably would opt for a shorter display... There is nothing (other than the weather) which is quite as good at ruining an enjoyable show as a bored child who just wants to go home..... (speaking from bitter experience...)


Families looking for a day out yes, but you still wouldn't take your family to an airshow if you didn't have 'at least to some degree' an interest in aviation (I never used the word enthusiast, you did) so I am afraid I don't buy that argument. It would be an expensive day out if none of you actually wanted to be there :wink:

Anyway, just my opinion and all that :surrender:
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Re: Cosford 2015 - The Feedback Thread

Postby TYPHOON3 on Wed 17 Jun 2015, 4:52 pm

Cosford was excellent value for money this year.Making the display shorter would deter some families who have been before from going as the admission fee would still be the same.Value for money is key for a lot of families.With regards bored children,why take them to an airshow in the first place if they are not interested, the only exception being if they have never been to an airshow before.I used to take my two girls but now they are teenagers they say 'No thanks Dad'I am hoping for Cosford to become a two day show never mind shortening the display.
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Re: Cosford 2015 - The Feedback Thread

Postby PeterR on Wed 17 Jun 2015, 6:26 pm

Evening All! :wave:

As Clive has said, keep the comments coming, it will be all looked at the appropriate wash-up meetings planned for the coming weeks! Great to see so much positive feedback, not just about the flying but also the RAF ground displays as there was a big push from personnel on station to make these a much high standard of display this year. Also, if you haven't already, check out the feedback survey on the air show website for your chance to win tickets to next year's show! http://www.cosfordairshow.co.uk/survey.php

Most of the feedback will be answered/addressed in the coming weeks, but a few areas I can address currently;

Cones/Barriers in the Static Display
Well, I was out on the airfield at 10pm on Saturday night, in the rain, putting in more cones and extending the areas around the aircraft to trying and avoid this criticism again! The cones had been put out circling the TSR2, Jaguars & Harriers aircraft individually at touching distance and I did move them as far back as possible but there wasn't much I could do on my own at that time of night. Looking at the aerial photos, the barriers around the Harrier GR3 in the DOTA, as well as the SAR Zone helicopters were moved closer to the aircraft by the crews on Sunday morning. Not a lot we can do about that. I will make sure this is raised again in the LI's so hopefully they're positioned better for photography next year, however there must be a compromise between public/aircraft interaction and getting the most photogenic image.

Runway Caravan
Simple issue really, it needs to be parked on the flightline near the datum point. Sadly it will therefore always impact someone's view.

Commentary
I know Sean does put in a lot of effort into preparation work, and has an extensive folders of notes that he uses on the day. Although his Alton Towers comment was taken as bad taste for many, I think some of the stick thrown his way is a little unfair. For example, sound quality/volume isn't his fault as he doesn't set up all the speakers along the flightline! Some of the misinformation (the Catalina for example) wasn't directly his fault. Although Sean listens into the Display Frequency, we (FDD/FCC/Ops Team) do run up or shout across to the commentary position throughout the day to keep him up to date. I know myself and my colleague in the Ops portacabin were extremely rushed (with the chopping and changing to the programme due to aircraft not making it on Saturday) and therefore didn't have as much time to keep Sean as up to date as we should have. His position next to the ATC tower means sometimes his view isn't as good as yours.

Thin Static
Granted the UAS90 display apron was servery affected by cancellations (QinetiQ Harvard & private Tiger Moth suffering from technical issues, as well as 2x Bulldogs and 1x Chipmunk unable to make it due to the weather), I can't understand how the rest of the static line could be considered "thin". I'm yet to crunch the numbers properly but I'm pretty sure we had more than double the visiting aircraft compared to 2013/2014, in addition to all the DSAE airframes. I think all the aircraft on show were also of good quality, and we tried to position them in themed areas and as photogenic as possible.

Flying Helicopters Parking
The reason the Apaches, Lynx & Chinook were parked southside rather than along the grass flightline was a direct result of the AVTUR refueling vehicles available to us. TSW brought 2x Oshkosh TAR vehicles which would have made a mess of the grass runway given the softness of the ground. Therefore we parked the helicopters southside so the tanker could operate from hardstanding. For the last two years the comments have been that people do not like aircraft/support vehicles parked along the grass flightline, so it shows that everyone likes different things.

VIP Aircraft - Engines Running
The reason the visiting aircraft were instructed to do this is so we could close the runway as soon as possible after the flying display, to then allow vehicles to exit via Crash Gate 4. I have to say we totally overlooked the fact the engine noise from those aircraft may have distracted from the finale, sorry! But at the end of the day it meant we had cars flowing across the runway 7 minutes after the display finished, a massive improvement from previous years.

Special Paint Schemes
Sadly the 'blizzard' F-16, 18 Sqn centenary Chinook and camouflage Typhoon all had technical issues meaning they weren't used on Sunday, out of our hands sadly!
PeterR

Re: Cosford 2015 - The Feedback Thread

Postby Downes0106 on Wed 17 Jun 2015, 7:31 pm

This was my first Cosford Show, and I certainly wouldnt rule out a return. My feedback for considerations is:
1. Having arrived around 7am, I was directed in to the earlybird car park - I thought the checking of tickets and application of a "fast-Track" sticker to windscreens was a good idea - however it was a bit annoying to see later arrivals gaining entry before we were released from the car park. In the end it didnt result in a poor parking space, so just a niggle.
2. Commentary - I thought having the commentary box at a position that couldnt see much of the display was poor, and the least said about Seans mistakes the better. It would also be nice if he'd shut up at times so we can just enjoy the noise of the aircraft.
3. The elevator music during gaps was a bit of a waste of time.
4. Having hung around for 20 mins after the flying, the speed with which we exited the site was brilliant - congrats to all involved in managing the traffic flow well.
5. Personally had no issues with the static layout, cones etc. All very good.
6. TSR2 - Excellent!
Thanks to Peter and everyone on the organising team for a very enjoyable day.
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Re: Cosford 2015 - The Feedback Thread

Postby austinpj on Thu 18 Jun 2015, 11:58 am

Hi all.

My turn :-)

First time attendee to Cosford Airshow. Despite warnings on traffic on the M54 roadworks, getting in was a breeze, though I did arrive just after 8am, so ended up with a parking spot well into the museum grounds.....

Static was good, loved the Jags, and the TSR.2 - the main attraction for me going. However, the cones were too close to many of the aircraft on static. And it was a bit difficult getting a decent side-on shot of the TSR.2. Then again, I realise Cosford has limited space.

Shame about the flying cancellations and clouds, but nothing could be done about that I guess. The commentary was, er, interesting to say the least; it was annoying he kept making mistakes (was it his first airshow?).

The problem for me, was the crowd line. Too busy, and not big enough. And people had brought their little shelters, I thought they were banned?? Could have done with being twice as deep. Approaching it, I had to quickly do a u-turn towards a spot I'd noticed (just behind the border with the car park); in doing so I hastily stopped as a bloke was about to take a couple of snaps. Despite not photo-bombing him, he went off on one at me (colourful language and gestures), first time thats happened to me. A very rude fellow, so I just ignored him.

Toilets were good, and many. Somehow managed to not buy any food, which is odd for me - seemed to be the usual over-priced food. I did partake in a free donut :-D Programme was a good price, others shows should take note.

Parked were I was, when it was time to leave, I knew it as going to be a painful experience, especially after being cut-off by a bloke in a big Saab. Why can't us Brits merge in turn? Instead a good number (that I've encountered), just don't let you merge, "no, that space is MINE". In the end, it took 30 minutes to leave, not bad at all really. As with Duxford, there are limited routes out.

Parking (i.e. leaving) is always going to be an issue at any venue, the organisers can do their very best, and they'll never win or be fully appreciated by everyone.

Altogether, I (and my mate, who did his Weapons Training at Cosford 25 years ago), really enjoyed the day. And we'd both go back next year :-)

Thanks for reading.
austinpj

Re: Cosford 2015 - The Feedback Thread

Postby Andyph on Fri 19 Jun 2015, 5:49 am

On the length of airshow debate I'd rather the pot of money used for participation is allocated to less higher quality items than lots of cheaper alternatives that last longer!

I do like that Flying Legends has lots of metal in the air together
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Re: Cosford 2015 - The Feedback Thread

Postby Wissam24 on Fri 19 Jun 2015, 10:21 am

I think if there is a ban on windbreaks, tents and the like, that needs to be enforced before and during the display.
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Re: Cosford 2015 - The Feedback Thread

Postby WG655 on Fri 19 Jun 2015, 12:35 pm

Agreed - a group behind me were obstructing I would guess around 10+ feet of the crowdline with a number of windbreaks. Granted, they didn't cause a problem to me as I was in front of them however there were a lot of people it would have interfered with. Plus from a safety perspective it cannot be great either.
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Re: Cosford 2015 - The Feedback Thread

Postby TYPHOON3 on Fri 19 Jun 2015, 1:56 pm

I agree with the points made about the windbreaks but if the ban is going to be enforced it needs to be made public before any tickets are sold.Some of Joe Public won't like this hence ticket sales will be down.Maybe a designated area for them at one end of the display line, as not everyone takes them to airshows and a sign saying 'No Windbreaks/Tents past this point Please'
TYPHOON3

Re: Cosford 2015 - The Feedback Thread

Postby Wissam24 on Fri 19 Jun 2015, 2:09 pm

Or they could just watch the show without windbreaks and tents? The ban is there, people will ignore them and still bring them but if it's not enforced it encourages the behaviour.
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Re: Cosford 2015 - The Feedback Thread

Postby TYPHOON3 on Fri 19 Jun 2015, 4:05 pm

Wissam24 wrote:Or they could just watch the show without windbreaks and tents? The ban is there, people will ignore them and still bring them but if it's not enforced it encourages the behaviour.

The point is though some of Joe Public like their windbreaks and tents and are probably part of their airshow experience.They couldn't give a damn about us enthusiasts.If a total ban was imposed ticket sales would almost certainly be down,that's why I suggested a designated area for them then everyone might be happy.
TYPHOON3

Re: Cosford 2015 - The Feedback Thread

Postby Sundowner on Fri 19 Jun 2015, 5:08 pm

It's not only "Joe public" that likes to use windbreaks & the like.....or is there a different rule for "plane spotters" :whistle:
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Re: Cosford 2015 - The Feedback Thread

Postby Jamie87 on Sat 20 Jun 2015, 9:21 am

Sundowner wrote:It's not only "Joe public" that likes to use windbreaks & the like.....or is there a different rule for "plane spotters" :whistle:


The use of step ladders is what annoys me more. Didn't have any at Cosford this year thankfully but RIAT usually brings them out. Can understand using them for static in some cases but the crowd line?! Not needed.
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Re: Cosford 2015 - The Feedback Thread

Postby Craig on Sat 20 Jun 2015, 11:38 am

TYPHOON3 wrote:
Wissam24 wrote:Or they could just watch the show without windbreaks and tents? The ban is there, people will ignore them and still bring them but if it's not enforced it encourages the behaviour.

The point is though some of Joe Public like their windbreaks and tents and are probably part of their airshow experience.They couldn't give a damn about us enthusiasts.If a total ban was imposed ticket sales would almost certainly be down,that's why I suggested a designated area for them then everyone might be happy.

I don't think people "liking" their windbreaks and tents is really the issue, it's purely courtesy to other visitors. A windbreak set up generally means a prime section of crowd line that could host 10 people ending up as a private enclosure for two. If you must have your cordoned off bit of crowd line then you can pay for the premium enclosures, or rough it with everyone else. There's got to be some give and take.
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Re: Cosford 2015 - The Feedback Thread

Postby Mooshie1956 on Sat 20 Jun 2015, 12:08 pm

Craig wrote: If you must have your cordoned off bit of crowd line then you can pay for the premium enclosures, or rough it with everyone else. There's got to be some give and take.


I totally agree, but then you get the problem of Planes TV setting up camp right in front of you and spoiling your view just so that they can broadcast a free live feed, so why pay £58 for the luxury when you can cordon off part of the cheaper area and get an unobstructed view.
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Re: Cosford 2015 - The Feedback Thread

Postby CJS on Sat 20 Jun 2015, 1:33 pm

Jamie87 wrote:
Sundowner wrote:It's not only "Joe public" that likes to use windbreaks & the like.....or is there a different rule for "plane spotters" :whistle:


The use of step ladders is what annoys me more. Didn't have any at Cosford this year thankfully but RIAT usually brings them out. Can understand using them for static in some cases but the crowd line?! Not needed.


I saw one guy walking around with a gigantic picnic box which he kept standing on. Got in my way a couple of times but he kept on the move thankfully!
"Forewarned is forearmed"
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Re: Cosford 2015 - The Feedback Thread

Postby jayne_morris on Sat 20 Jun 2015, 5:50 pm

I do not see what your problem is with windbreaks, and normally at cosford we put up a small windbreak around our chairs to give ourselves a little bit of space

we didn't do it this year as we were told by one of the crowd marshalls they weren't allowed but it seems that many ignored this request by the crowd marshalls

we were sat next to a couple of people from swindon and the man sat next to me had his camera bag on the floor between our chairs and during the breaks in the flying display he would sit the camera down on top of his camera bag, as the apaches got up to display two small children about five years of age urged on by their parents made a beeline to the ropes and in the process kicked this guys three grand camera and lens off his bag and on to the floor, and when he asked them to be careful the father shouted out "they want to get to the front to see the fireworks"

luckily the camera survived the fall, but a small windbreak around your space would protect your expensive camera equipment from this inconsiderate behaviour that you tend see at Cosford the kids spend all morning on the fun fair and then want to push in to get the best view right at the front for the flying display
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Re: Cosford 2015 - The Feedback Thread

Postby davidjones533 on Sat 20 Jun 2015, 7:26 pm

Yes, how dare those small children stand in front of the tall photographers. Tut tut. I'm surprised the little pests are allowed in at all. :tumbleweed:
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