RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Postby PeterR on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 8:58 pm

Well I thought I'd try and reply to some of the comments on here without getting too irritated... :hide:




Flare Path wrote:Big changes required next year, in my opinion.

Such as?

Adamwilliams132 wrote:Well that was a bit of an anti climax. The Buff wasn't even visible. Very poor show this year.

The captain of ICER02 went as low as he was authorised to do so, unfortunately he was still in the cloud so had to return to RAF Fairford. Not much we can do about the weather sadly...

HeyfordDave111 wrote:What puzzles me is that there was no 'plan b' when things started to unravel.

'Plan B' is to re-orgainse the flying display as well as possible to get as many displays as possible, which the Flying Display Director did admirably. What would you suggest?

HeyfordDave111 wrote:Maybe Cosford needs a rest, a new team, a rethink, plan b's, a new direction?

A new orgainising team who can control the weather perhaps?

Dan O'Hagan wrote:Whether that was budgetary, down to targeting the wrong acts or as a result of date clashes is unknown.

We had the budget ready to buy in the SwAFHF to add some noise to the show when it became apparent that most of Europe's fast jet displays were heading to Denmark, however the CAA put the brakes on that plan. We did try and get the acts everyone wants but we don't always get what we want...

Wes_Howes wrote:The placement of the Fairey Delta and Avro 707 left much to be desired too.

Where would you have suggested they were parked?

Adamwilliams132 wrote:What happens to the fees due to be paid to display items that didn't turn up?

They don't get paid...

RS2 wrote:
Flare Path wrote:I think the culmination of how terrible this show was, is deeply rooted in the inclusion of the Rans S-6 Coyote II in the flying programme at a major military air event - the only RAF show.

Very sad for you maybe but very proud for many from the local communities and local pupils from Telford who helped build this plane under a Boeing sponsored education initiative. A plane that is also dedicated to a local girl who worked on the project and was tragically murdered, I think its significance certainly warranted the few minutes it took up in the flying display.

Hit the nail on the head. The UK has a massive shortage of engineers, hence why the air show puts such a huge focus on STEM. Given the detailed listed above, such as the fact it was built locally and named in honour of Georgia Williams (who was also an Air Cadet) and the fact it displayed at no cost to the Air Show, why wouldn't we include it in the flying programme?!

not_the_dj wrote:The commentry was poor and didn't give us any news about what was cancelled. Didn't hear a thing about the Sea Vixen, Gnats or Mustang. If that information was being given out on Facebook/Twitter then it really should have been announced to the crowd sat there waiting for them.

Dan O'Hagan wrote:There isn't (or shouldn't) be an airshow commentary position that doesn't have direct communication with the tower and display director. I'm certain Cosford will have made sure their team had the same, and will have been arranged for them well in advance.

I totally agree with you. I'm not exaggerating when I say I ran between the air traffic control tower and commentary tower at least 20 times with updated timings and news of cancellations to pass to the commentary team. They also have the Tower frequency to listen to and a landline to both the FDD and myself. I'm not sure why the updates that we were giving them weren't passed on by the commentators but it will be noted in the wash-up meetings.

jason82wells wrote:Buff was going to do two passes but both RAF heavies did one didn't they? What does that say about the effort the RAF put in?

Adamwilliams132 wrote:The RAF heavies doing one straight pass each is a bit poor, the Dutch herc did a better pass as it arrived for static.

The B-52 was authorised to conduct three flypasts, and we were planning for it to do so. The authorisation for the A400M & C-130J flypasts dictated that they were only permitted to perform a single flypast, out of our control sadly. I too would have liked them to do a couple of passes in differing configurations.

classicaviation wrote: If that is indicative of the budget they are given; then scrap Scampton now cause the RAF clearly aren't interested!

The RAF Cosford Air Show doesn't get issued any kind of budget from the MoD, and no public money is spent in the delivery of the event. We infact have to pay for UK military aircraft to participate...

classicaviation wrote:You do need some imagination with formations, set pieces, demos etc, and this year lacked any imagination what so ever.

So putting the Army Historic Flight's Scout and Soiux in formation with the Apache for a unique formation, which took a bloody lot of paperwork, lacks imagination? Likewise the unique Anson/Harvard pairing? Seen many Tutor threeships at other air shows recently too?

TYPHOON3 wrote:Before choosing a date for 2017 make sure it doesn't clash with any major overseas shows.

We have already liaised with a large number of European military partners to let them know our date, and discussed keeping our weekend free and avoiding clashes.

aknott68 wrote:It was disappointing to not see either the hercules or chinook as anniversary colour schemes.

We did ask, but there were serviceability and tasking issues that conspired against us.

Pat Murphy wrote:Bit surprised to hear the home team didn't taxi any of the Jags though. I thought that was very popular item last year, given the reaction around me when they started up :question:

The lack of Jaguar taxi demonstration was outside of our control sadly.

[rgmw]largie wrote:Atlas @ 11:35? Wtf. Really looking forward to that and just saw a small speck leaving.

The aircraft was on an operational tasking and 1135L was as late as they could slip the flypast without impacting on the mission. Ops come first!

st24 wrote:Seriously?! penned in by cones with (IIRC) a "RAF" Bentley coupe on one side and a tent on the other. Dreadful positioning- as was pretty much everything else really... :facepalm:

This pissed me off too, I had a number of discussions with ground staff in the RAF Village who moved the cones closer to the aircraft on three occasions across the weekend after I had our cone team re-postioned them back further away. However, which others statics did you consider 'dreadfully positioned'?

Luke28 wrote:I'm not jumping on something else to knock the show for here just for the sake of it but there was an Italian H-101 down for static display in the programme, I know discussions were on going with Italy, the organisers must have been pretty confident of it attending too include it in the programme and do a featured piece on it, shame that it didn't come to fruition.

Was on the cards for a while, coming up from Westlands at Yeovil, but sadly fell through in the weeks prior after the programme had gone to print. Had hoped no-one would notice!

strangelookingalien wrote:Although I feel the airshow team at Cosford *do* put in the effort to get a good flying display it is an unfortunate consequence of having fewer shows that virtually every UK airshow is close to selling out regardless of what is booked, which may instigate a 'race to the bottom'.

I can assure you that as long as I'm employed at RAF Cosford, the show will not adopt this mindset. All of us in the Air Show Office (and that's only 3 full time and 2 part time staff!) want to deliver the best show possible.
PeterR

Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Postby Wes_Howes on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 9:07 pm

Park the 707 and Delta somewhere, where there aren't bins or ice cream vans or burger stands behind them. Such a shame to have three aircraft dragged out of the museum, to then have two of them in areas with cluttered back grounds.
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Postby Flare Path on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 9:12 pm

PeterR wrote:
Flare Path wrote:Big changes required next year, in my opinion.

Such as?


As a starting point, I think you can learn a lot from the vast number of negative reviews on social media and elsewhere - I don't think, given your experience, I need to be telling you ways to improve your event; exactly what you need to change is entirely your discretion.

It's all well and good defending your event to the hardened enthusiast, but I doubt that will be much consolation for the criticism of the event in broader terms. Learn what wrong and find ways to improve the 2017 event - no need to be hostile, or take the criticism personally. :up:
Flare Path

Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Postby borismorris on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 9:45 pm

Flare Path wrote:
PeterR wrote:
Flare Path wrote:Big changes required next year, in my opinion.

Such as?


As a starting point, I think you can learn a lot from the vast number of negative reviews on social media and elsewhere - I don't think, given your experience, I need to be telling you ways to improve your event; exactly what you need to change is entirely your discretion.

It's all well and good defending your event to the hardened enthusiast, but I doubt that will be much consolation for the criticism of the event in broader terms. Learn what wrong and find ways to improve the 2017 event - no need to be hostile, or take the criticism personally. :up:


I may be a billion miles out but given that Peter has spent the amount of time and effort on the event he probably feels like its his baby, I would be peeved too. Some of the issues raised have been plain ignorant. The B-52 for instance - what could they do about the weather?
I'm sure Peter is just as annoyed about some of the issues as we were but sometimes comments appear which indicate a lack of awareness from the poster. The single flypasts for instance -I only expected a single pass as that was all that was advertised.
Put yourself in his shoes, would you not be irritated too?
Plenty of positives and yes some lessons to take into '17. But lets not make out like the whole day was a debacle. One final thing - if you are going to be critical at least make improvement suggestions when asked. Otherwise its a pretty feeble cop out.
borismorris

Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Postby Pringles on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 10:03 pm

PeterR wrote:
RS2 wrote:
Flare Path wrote:I think the culmination of how terrible this show was, is deeply rooted in the inclusion of the Rans S-6 Coyote II in the flying programme at a major military air event - the only RAF show.

Very sad for you maybe but very proud for many from the local communities and local pupils from Telford who helped build this plane under a Boeing sponsored education initiative. A plane that is also dedicated to a local girl who worked on the project and was tragically murdered, I think its significance certainly warranted the few minutes it took up in the flying display.

Hit the nail on the head. The UK has a massive shortage of engineers, hence why the air show puts such a huge focus on STEM. Given the detailed listed above, such as the fact it was built locally and named in honour of Georgia Williams (who was also an Air Cadet) and the fact it displayed at no cost to the Air Show, why wouldn't we include it in the flying programme?!

Because (and with all due respect) it was dull... :tumbleweed: The commentator did his best to convey the significance of the display, and I tried my best to bear that in mind when I was watching it, however very few of those around me (including the Air Cadets/children that it was supposed to be inspiring) were watching it, instead they were chatting amongst themselves as they waited for it to land so that something more dynamic could display :cuppa:
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Postby Flare Path on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 10:19 pm

Peter didn't quote my reply, either. Not sure why...

Very aware of the story behind the plane and those who have made it a reality and I'm sure appreciation is shared across many levels, but even so that doesn't mean we can't acknowledge in other ways - perhaps, in hindsight now looking back, better ways too.
Flare Path

Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Postby vulcan558 on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 11:12 pm

The terrible off base parking for those coming via A5 green route,
take a good look at the picture on this years ticket. Notice the cars, how it used to be.
you have advanced tickets now and have a very good account of numbers, so you can fit them in.
split the parking far right side for green route other route left of airfield.
take a look at the Ticket or picture you have for the ticket.that layout worked for bigger crowds then so you can fit them on base,
No 2 mile walk with young kids, impossible trying to carry cool box chairs brollies bolltles of pop flask camera bag etc etc to crowd line, you cannot leave that gear anywhere and then go off to show the kids the museum
exhibits or even walk the hangers and look at anything.

I noticed loads of old couples and families stuck in that off base carpark, you have 2 good viable entrances, use them.
can see the green route being cottoned on to and you will get all traffic hitting your red route, what a cock up that will bring.
vulcan558

Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 11:48 pm

Interesting and informative, Peter.

If the commentary team weren't even listening to their radio, that's a huge worry on a number of levels. The commentators must ALWAYS be across EVERYTHING at all times. God forbid if something happened.

Still, they got to hob-nob with Carol Vorderman I notice.

#priorities
Dan O'Hagan

Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Postby st24 on Thu 23 Jun 2016, 12:19 am

PeterR wrote:
st24 wrote:Seriously?! penned in by cones with (IIRC) a "RAF" Bentley coupe on one side and a tent on the other. Dreadful positioning- as was pretty much everything else really... :facepalm:

This pissed me off too, I had a number of discussions with ground staff in the RAF Village who moved the cones closer to the aircraft on three occasions across the weekend after I had our cone team re-postioned them back further away. However, which others statics did you consider 'dreadfully positioned'?


The King Air was really annoying but you know that. The FD2 is such a fabulous looking thing but it had an ice cream van right behind it and various stalls etc from the other side. That ramp isn't the best with so much stuff around it. The B.188 was too close to the fun fair - it's a long beast and so getting a decent angle was difficult, from the other side (light was irrelevant!) you had the ghost house or whatever it was behind it. The lovely arctic Harrier was almost lost, again with a tent with a drag car(?) in it right behind. The trainer line up is what it is, again, surrounded by public but that can't be helped. The best shots are in the revetment- Spotty, arctic Harrier and perhaps the ripple pair (space?) should have been in there but I understand the speed line up. It can't be easy but things can be done and I just love spending time round all those fantastic Jaguar "relics"! Many of those were decently placed and it's great to see them out. :clap:
Well I'm off now on my most hated drive - to Dover, to get to Florennes. Laters.
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Postby sunwing on Thu 23 Jun 2016, 10:07 am

Well I thought the display itself was ok - not the best, but definitely not the worst by a long shot. The display acts were varied, the static was good with very nice foreign visitors. If the weather would have held out until the end of the display we would have been praising the show with a flypast or two from a B-52 but Lady Luck wasn't on our side.
So very well done to the Cosford team for their great efforts - I look forward to next year.
The only 2 gripes I did have was the commentary (it was school boy stuff, need a new team for next year) and the trains. After Cosford telling everyone to take the train, I was at Telford station waiting for the 08.28 that never turned up and the next 2 being cancelled due to overrunning engineering works. Surely with the airshow being on they should have scheduled the works on another weekend? I ended up getting on base at 10.15 which didn't give me time to have a look at all the exhibits which was rather annoying.

Paul
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Postby rob68 on Thu 23 Jun 2016, 10:55 pm

IIRC correctly the 188 and TSR2 have been out at a show before with no clutter. They were positioned between two hangers and in a way that you could get full side shots with only the green of the hangers behind them. This may have also happened with the FD2. Couldnt this be done again and the jags with scaffolding be put by the fair. (Admittedly you would loose a hangar)
rob68

Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Postby kph100 on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 8:55 am

Well it sad to say this, because obviously for any event like this there is a lot of hard work in planning and running.
This was the worst airshow I have been too.
Boring and the way the layout crushes all the spectators into a thin strip at the front.
I certainly will not be going next year, which is sad as there have been many better days at Cosford.
kph100

Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 8:55 am

rob68 wrote:IIRC correctly the 188 and TSR2 have been out at a show before with no clutter. They were positioned between two hangers and in a way that you could get full side shots with only the green of the hangers behind them. This may have also happened with the FD2. Couldnt this be done again and the jags with scaffolding be put by the fair. (Admittedly you would loose a hangar)


* hangars

* lose
Dan O'Hagan

Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Postby jason82wells on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 9:43 am

kph100 wrote:the way the layout crushes all the spectators into a thin strip at the front.


Not just the front either, there's never any room to wonder down beteeen the stalls/mobile shops & five days on, I'm still baffled why the choppers/trainers in static were surrounded so tightly by cordons (I'm referring here to having to walk single file to get from the static to the runway as the walk way was so narrow).
jason82wells

Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Postby strangelookingalien on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 10:00 am

kph100 wrote:Well it sad to say this, because obviously for any event like this there is a lot of hard work in planning and running.
This was the worst airshow I have been too.
Boring and the way the layout crushes all the spectators into a thin strip at the front.
I certainly will not be going next year, which is sad as there have been many better days at Cosford.



The layout for me was the worst thing about the airshow.

I loved the ground displays and enjoyed the flying despite the thin participation.
strangelookingalien

Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Postby spellow3010 on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 10:38 am

sunwing wrote:Well I thought the display itself was ok - not the best, but definitely not the worst by a long shot. The display acts were varied, the static was good with very nice foreign visitors. If the weather would have held out until the end of the display we would have been praising the show with a flypast or two from a B-52 but Lady Luck wasn't on our side.
So very well done to the Cosford team for their great efforts - I look forward to next year.
The only 2 gripes I did have was the commentary (it was school boy stuff, need a new team for next year) and the trains. After Cosford telling everyone to take the train, I was at Telford station waiting for the 08.28 that never turned up and the next 2 being cancelled due to overrunning engineering works. Surely with the airshow being on they should have scheduled the works on another weekend? I ended up getting on base at 10.15 which didn't give me time to have a look at all the exhibits which was rather annoying.

Paul


Paul - see my post a couple of pages back. We plan our engineering work several years out, further out than Cosford plans its show I would imagine. The issue on Sunday was that something went wrong in the engineering work and it overran. Like the weather impacting on the flying display, sometimes things aren't perfect. We have to maintain our railway, and most of it gets done overnight, especially Saturday nights into Sunday mornings. Some people get quite uppity about it, especially when we have the temerity to perform engineering work at Christmas or other Bank Holidays - safeguarding the usual journeys of Mr and Mrs Monday to Friday Commuter.

In a utopia, Network Rail, London Midland, Arriva Trains Wales and Team Cosford would liaise accordingly and I would imagine that some sort of negotiation would take place.

If you got scuppered by overrunning engineering works, please accept my unofficial apology on behalf of Network Rail. Like the airshow, something planned didn't go according to plan and I am sure our engineering access team are on the case trying to understand what the problem was to reduce the risk of it happening again in the future.

Regards
David
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Postby Mooshie1956 on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 1:45 pm

strangelookingalien wrote:
kph100 wrote:Well it sad to say this, because obviously for any event like this there is a lot of hard work in planning and running.
This was the worst airshow I have been too.
Boring and the way the layout crushes all the spectators into a thin strip at the front.
I certainly will not be going next year, which is sad as there have been many better days at Cosford.



The layout for me was the worst thing about the airshow.

I loved the ground displays and enjoyed the flying despite the thin participation.


That's why I prefer the Cosford club a lot more space to move, but at £60 this year I didn't see it as value for money when RIAT with garden seat cost me £71.
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Postby borismorris on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 7:03 pm

I was down the far end of the runway pretty much in front of the Apache. A bit of an extra walk but we literally had no one behind us for 90% of the display. I'd swear that the Apache pilot when swivelling the cannon around was repeatedly training it on me too.. maybe because having a beard and shaggy hair and putting my hands in the air.. but anyways; If you go crowd centre its going to be busy. I do wonder though if the crowdline instead of a parallel to runway line was actually arced surely everyone would see better? The centre would only need to be set back maybe another 20m.. It would surely spread the crowd out better too. Is there any reason this doesn't happen?
borismorris

Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Postby Pringles on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 8:55 pm

borismorris wrote:It would surely spread the crowd out better too. Is there any reason this doesn't happen?

I'm guessing it'll be because:
The centre would only need to be set back maybe another 20m

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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Postby rob68 on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 10:41 pm

Dan I put everything in a wardrobe. The point is still valid though
rob68

Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Postby Pringles on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 10:13 am

My views of the show can be found here:
Here's my summary:
So how best to summarise the show? Well I feel that much of the battering that the show has received on social media is unjustified: due to shows in Europe securing essentially all of the fast jet displays in Europe, and the CAA preventing the appearance of the Swedish Air Force Historic Flight, the organisers at least on paper provided an impressive line-up. Almost every classic jet in operation in the UK this year was accounted for – given the current climate towards the types this is hugely admirable; unfortunately the weather proved to be the biggest downfall for the show, which was completely outside of the organising team’s control. I will hopefully be attending next year, and I understand that much more effort is being made to ensure that Cosford Airshow 2017 does not clash with any other European airshows; as such I would hope that many more fast jets are in attendance. Next year Cosford will not be the only RAF airshow of the year, however I feel that RAF support for its home show(s) must be drastically improved – unless changes are made it could lose one of its biggest recruitment tools, to the detriment of the Air Force as a whole.
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Postby PeterR on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 9:57 am

jason82wells wrote:I'm still baffled why the choppers/trainers in static were surrounded so tightly by cordons (I'm referring here to having to walk single file to get from the static to the runway as the walk way was so narrow).


But if the cones were further away from the aircraft, they'd be less space to walk around then? Which would you prefer? :dunno:

Also the walkway between the ground display area and the flightline (which was a new addition to the showground this year to make access safer without walking through the car parks) was 30m wide, not sure I'd call that narrow? :dunno:
PeterR

Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Postby PeterR on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 9:59 am

rob68 wrote:IIRC correctly the 188 and TSR2 have been out at a show before with no clutter. They were positioned between two hangers and in a way that you could get full side shots with only the green of the hangers behind them.

Unfortunately these parking locations are no longer available to put Museum assets on, hence why we use Apron 10 & Apron 11 to park them this year.
PeterR

Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Postby PeterR on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 10:01 am

st24 wrote:The best shots are in the revetment- Spotty, arctic Harrier and perhaps the ripple pair (space?) should have been in there but I understand the speed line up.

Geoff, I can't make any promises yet but.... I will try and get Spotty and a couple of friends parked in the DOTA next year for nice clear images. :heyhey:
PeterR

Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2016 - [Official Topic]

Postby jason82wells on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 11:08 am

PeterR wrote:
jason82wells wrote:I'm still baffled why the choppers/trainers in static were surrounded so tightly by cordons (I'm referring here to having to walk single file to get from the static to the runway as the walk way was so narrow).


But if the cones were further away from the aircraft, they'd be less space to walk around then? Which would you prefer? :dunno:

Also the walkway between the ground display area and the flightline (which was a new addition to the showground this year to make access safer without walking through the car parks) was 30m wide, not sure I'd call that narrow? :dunno:


The walk way was anything but 30m wide, perhaps I didn't explain myself well enough.

As you face three choppers which were at the back of the section, facing the c-130, there was what can only be described as a passage along the right hand side of that section heading towards the runway.

I'm not referring to the aircraft & how close the fencing was to them.
jason82wells

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