RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]
Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]
The BoB days spread air mindedness among the general population like nothing since. Whatever turns up at Cosford the work of Peter seen on here does seem to listen and move things forward where possible.
Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]
Flare Path wrote:john001 wrote:Czechs have a historical link with Biggin Hill and since independence these countries have celebrated their national heroes to a greater degree, the same cannot be said of Cosford.
What about hundreds of Czechoslovak servicemen who found themselves in Shropshire in 1940 (most of them at Cosford) - does that not count?
Maybe but it does not have the significance of Biggin Hill and what happened there.. I am not pitting or arguing one against another just exploring possible reasons....
Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]
capercaillie wrote:john001 wrote:Maybe its easy to say why the suggestions are not right - that's fine it's a debate to try to find the reasons - what's your view on why Cosford appears to struggle?
If I'm brutally honest, I don't know, hence why the question is being asked.
If I were to hazard a guess, I think it comes down to a recent history of laziness of the show organisers in that anything will do, we have a captive audience, they're happy enough to see anything, attitude. Its now caught up. Cosford was always the lesser of the three main RAF airshows that survived into this century, it didn't need to satisfy the enthusiast sector as Waddington and Leuchars performed well enough for them. Now they have gone, Cosford alone has to pick up the mantle and its lack of previous connections with those acts may be the root?
The last two to three years its changed, with Peter now trying to attract international items to a venue that has never been on their radar until more recently, its probably a very difficult task to achieve.
Add to this the winding down of the RAF assets on offer, think back to early 2000s when you still had 5 or 6 RAF fast jets to call on as well as a few heavies, the Reds and BBMF, you didn't need to do a lot to keep people entertained especially when adding your wing walkers, an odd warbird and aerobat types. Now relying on the RAF, you're struggling to fill an hour.
Personally I don't think the RAF sell their "finest hour" enough. Perhaps we are now in a world that is too PC. The September BoB shows were always superbly attended and supported from abroad especially by the other air arms that took part. It can be sold in a dignified way, the Germans and Italians even participated in the last one at Finningley!
I still say the RAF should hold a show at a venue with a useable runway, but I think we all know where that is heading, and RIAT will become the RAF's showcase anyway.
So I guess my answer is making do with mediocrity and not challenging for better goals for too long. Fingers crossed things continue to improve.
A finer post on the subject you'll be hard pressed to find. I have taught you well Luke, the force is strong...
When all is said and done, Cosford will still sell out and be a great success but it won't be because of (despite Mr Reoch's valiant efforts of late ) a Waddington/Leuchars standard flying display, but more by virtue that there are so few shows coupled with a huge, aviation hungry catchment area only 10-15 miles away with good transport links....
You caaan't trust the system... Maaan!
Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]
Pringles wrote:But surely if the show merely was a family show, and fast jets won't appeal to the majority of "Joe Public" why bother to negotiate with nations abroad to bring in an "F-18, Alpha Jet solo, Rafale, RSV, Mig 29, SU22, F16"?
The fact remains that this is the RAF's only official airshow so to book a glider and claim it's back by "public demand" won't convince me it's anything other than filler, however much you try and dress up its links to the RAF.
Finally your point about the Sea Vixen: I suggested it as an exciting civilian act as the budget was there for it last year and it was very well received online, however was unable to display - the budget is obviously there so get for it this year! Saying it won't be a draw because you'll be at Old Warden the week before is not true for the majority as this is the primary show in the Midlands, and for many of us Shuttleworth is quite a trek
What exactly is your role within the Cosford airshow team? How do you know that the team haven't received good feedback about the glider display?
The fact that the team haven't yet booked big civilian acts, as i have said previously, shows that they are still optimistic about getting support from NATO assets. Big civilian acts are generally booked when NATO assets are unavailabe
I didn't say the sea vixen wasn't a big draw, what I said was it wouldn't be the main attraction for me personally.
Lo que volará volará whatever will fly will fly!!
Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]
st24 wrote: A finer post on the subject you'll be hard pressed to find. I have taught you well Luke, the force is strong...
When all is said and done, Cosford will still sell out and be a great success but it won't be because of (despite Mr Reoch's valiant efforts of late ) a Waddington/Leuchars standard flying display, but more by virtue that there are so few shows coupled with a huge, aviation hungry catchment area only 10-15 miles away with good transport links....
Well if you look at my earlier post you'll find i said pretty much the same thing
I do agree to a degree about the success of Cosford being an almost foregone conclusion but the team do try to put on a unique show. Where else can you see the Whirlwind and the AW189 flying together? I am looking forward to the battlefield support set piece. Cosford has tried, in the last few years, to bring something unique to pacify the enthusiast, even if the fast jets aren't filling the skies.
Lo que volará volará whatever will fly will fly!!
Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]
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Last edited by davidjones533 on Sun 12 Aug 2018, 5:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]
Evening All! Without getting drawn into a lengthy discussion, some topics merited an answer...
The Glider... Did any of you who are complaining see Ian's display in that machine back in 2015? It's an impressive display, and with the aircraft based at RAF Cosford, we believed it's worthy of inclusion in the display. If it doesn't float your boat, use those 6 minutes to check your emails or eat an ice-cream. On the "Back by popular demand" comments... Believe it or not, we do a lot of market research in the Air Show Office, which mainly consists of visitor feedback forms and social media inputs, which gives us a good idea of what people want. What displays did people say they missed in 2016? The F/A-18C, the F-16AM, the Wingwalkers, The Blades, the B727 & the Glider were the most popular answers. Therefore we're trying to address that whilst keeping a balanced flying display, and yes that means we're trying extremely hard to attract some international fast jets too! I find it just as surprising as you that some people consider some of these items as their highlights, but there is a diverse array of opinions and tastes in our 50,000 visitors. We must do our best to balance it all out, whilst remaining in budget, and also keeping it fresh each year for our repeat visitors. Variety is the spice of life and all...!
Star Items... There are still 8 weeks to go until the show! We're still in discussions with a number of overseas items, some flying, some static. No guarantees that they'll all come good, but if they all did the tone of conversation in this thread will be a polar opposite than it is currently. Likewise we're still talking to an array of civilian items, should we need them. Trust me, it's a lot more frustrating knowing what's scheduled to attend but not being able to announce it before we've made sure to dot the I's and cross the T's and let the ink settle!
International Support... One thing that people forget when they start comparing line-ups for overseas events, to events in the UK, is the number of major airshows held here compared to other countries: How many major airshows are there in Belgium this year? ONE. Compare that to the huge number of UK events requesting international support. If you added the international support that is scheduled between Duxford, Cosford, Yeovilton, RIAT, Biggin Hill & Scampton this year all into one event it'd have the best line-up in Europe. We are extremely lucky in this country on how well we are supported by our overseas partners (usually without reciprocation from the RAF) but it means that some events loose out, while others prosper. The point raised about RAF Cosford not being on the European radar for many years is correct, but since 2014 I (and the rest of the Air Show Team) have been working hard to raise our profile, promote the show, and attract international participation. It's slow and steady progress, but I think the improvements in the last few years show we're getting somewhere. Likewise, we will debrief and review this year and make further improvements ready for 2018.
We'll wait and see what post is waiting on our return to the office on Tuesday, so next week's update may be a little light due to the Easter break. BUT, I predict the week after's might be a bumper one. As I've said before, I'd like to emphasise that confirmation for RAF frontline assets won't arrive until much much closer to the show. We're in discussions with them now, but their operational needs won't be known until June. Last year we only received approval for the C-130J & A400M flypasts in the week prior to the event, so patience is required please.
PS; Waiting until an event has actually happened is generally the best way to be able to review it, but maybe I'm just old fashioned...
Cheers,
Peter
Operations Manager
RAF Cosford Air Show
The Glider... Did any of you who are complaining see Ian's display in that machine back in 2015? It's an impressive display, and with the aircraft based at RAF Cosford, we believed it's worthy of inclusion in the display. If it doesn't float your boat, use those 6 minutes to check your emails or eat an ice-cream. On the "Back by popular demand" comments... Believe it or not, we do a lot of market research in the Air Show Office, which mainly consists of visitor feedback forms and social media inputs, which gives us a good idea of what people want. What displays did people say they missed in 2016? The F/A-18C, the F-16AM, the Wingwalkers, The Blades, the B727 & the Glider were the most popular answers. Therefore we're trying to address that whilst keeping a balanced flying display, and yes that means we're trying extremely hard to attract some international fast jets too! I find it just as surprising as you that some people consider some of these items as their highlights, but there is a diverse array of opinions and tastes in our 50,000 visitors. We must do our best to balance it all out, whilst remaining in budget, and also keeping it fresh each year for our repeat visitors. Variety is the spice of life and all...!
Star Items... There are still 8 weeks to go until the show! We're still in discussions with a number of overseas items, some flying, some static. No guarantees that they'll all come good, but if they all did the tone of conversation in this thread will be a polar opposite than it is currently. Likewise we're still talking to an array of civilian items, should we need them. Trust me, it's a lot more frustrating knowing what's scheduled to attend but not being able to announce it before we've made sure to dot the I's and cross the T's and let the ink settle!
International Support... One thing that people forget when they start comparing line-ups for overseas events, to events in the UK, is the number of major airshows held here compared to other countries: How many major airshows are there in Belgium this year? ONE. Compare that to the huge number of UK events requesting international support. If you added the international support that is scheduled between Duxford, Cosford, Yeovilton, RIAT, Biggin Hill & Scampton this year all into one event it'd have the best line-up in Europe. We are extremely lucky in this country on how well we are supported by our overseas partners (usually without reciprocation from the RAF) but it means that some events loose out, while others prosper. The point raised about RAF Cosford not being on the European radar for many years is correct, but since 2014 I (and the rest of the Air Show Team) have been working hard to raise our profile, promote the show, and attract international participation. It's slow and steady progress, but I think the improvements in the last few years show we're getting somewhere. Likewise, we will debrief and review this year and make further improvements ready for 2018.
We'll wait and see what post is waiting on our return to the office on Tuesday, so next week's update may be a little light due to the Easter break. BUT, I predict the week after's might be a bumper one. As I've said before, I'd like to emphasise that confirmation for RAF frontline assets won't arrive until much much closer to the show. We're in discussions with them now, but their operational needs won't be known until June. Last year we only received approval for the C-130J & A400M flypasts in the week prior to the event, so patience is required please.
PS; Waiting until an event has actually happened is generally the best way to be able to review it, but maybe I'm just old fashioned...
Cheers,
Peter
Operations Manager
RAF Cosford Air Show
Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]
Thanks for the update Peter
I was thinking about the number of shows the RAF has to commit to in the UK compared to the number of displays on the continent. The typhoon is displaying at 27 events in 2017 plus 2 on the continent. The Belgian F16, from a quick stint on google, is displaying at 2 shows in Belgium. The Red Arrows are performing 40 displays in the UK in 2017 not including fly pasts. It is no wonder the RAF has not performed much on the continent they haven't got any weekends free!
As Peter mentioned the UK is blessed with so many shows that it can also be a curse as all the available assets have to be spread so thinly, one year Cosford with have a lot of international support, another year a different show may get the support, swing and roundabouts.
I was thinking about the number of shows the RAF has to commit to in the UK compared to the number of displays on the continent. The typhoon is displaying at 27 events in 2017 plus 2 on the continent. The Belgian F16, from a quick stint on google, is displaying at 2 shows in Belgium. The Red Arrows are performing 40 displays in the UK in 2017 not including fly pasts. It is no wonder the RAF has not performed much on the continent they haven't got any weekends free!
As Peter mentioned the UK is blessed with so many shows that it can also be a curse as all the available assets have to be spread so thinly, one year Cosford with have a lot of international support, another year a different show may get the support, swing and roundabouts.
Lo que volará volará whatever will fly will fly!!
Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]
As I said previously, bit of a light update due to the Easter Break but fingers crossed the exciting paperwork I'm waiting for will arrive in time for next week's update...
[center]Participation Update 18/4/17[/center]
- We're pleased that the Avro Anson, operated by BAE Systems Heritage Flight, will be returning to RAF Cosford to perform in the Flying Display.
- An example of the Aerospatiale Gazelle will be joining the Static Displays, HA-LFH, which has recently been repainted into an attractive new silver/grey camouflage scheme.
As usual, the full list of participants is available online at http://www.cosfordairshow.co.uk/intheair.php and should be updated later today!
Cheers,
Peter
Operations Manager
RAF Cosford Air Show
[center]Participation Update 18/4/17[/center]
- We're pleased that the Avro Anson, operated by BAE Systems Heritage Flight, will be returning to RAF Cosford to perform in the Flying Display.
- An example of the Aerospatiale Gazelle will be joining the Static Displays, HA-LFH, which has recently been repainted into an attractive new silver/grey camouflage scheme.
As usual, the full list of participants is available online at http://www.cosfordairshow.co.uk/intheair.php and should be updated later today!
Cheers,
Peter
Operations Manager
RAF Cosford Air Show
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]
PeterR wrote: - An example of the Aerospatiale Gazelle will be joining the Static Displays, HA-LFH, which has recently been repainted into an attractive new silver/grey camouflage scheme.
That's not really selling any better than if it stayed as it was to be honest.
As its the 50th anniversary of the type, if its still on site how about getting the BATUS Gazelle out on static with some rotor blades on?
Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]
HA-LFH was never a military aircraft.
There are no BATUS Gazelles at Cosford, or indeed anywhere else in the UK at the moment, from memory!
There are no BATUS Gazelles at Cosford, or indeed anywhere else in the UK at the moment, from memory!
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]
That's a nice update for a slow week. Anson is a lovely airframe and always nice to see a gazelle.
Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]
The official RAF Cosford Air Show facebook replied to someone asking if any fast jets are going to be confirmed and said "We're waiting for final paperwork on at least two more jets in the flying display".
Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]
Sea Vixen and MIG-15 for starters should be top of the list then hopefully a couple of foreign afterburners too!
Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]
JonG96 wrote:The official RAF Cosford Air Show facebook replied to someone asking if any fast jets are going to be confirmed and said "We're waiting for final paperwork on at least two more jets in the flying display".
Quick predictions on the two fast jets, possibly something from Italy, RSV tornado perhaps and for the other one I'm going to go for something from Poland, MiG 29 Fulcrum. Only time will tell.
Nice little update today love the anson.
Lo que volará volará whatever will fly will fly!!
Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]
More likely to be two classic jets I'd have thought, which would by no means be a bad thing.
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]
Nice work on the Anson. Just got on ourself!
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]
Luke28 wrote:More likely to be two classic jets I'd have thought, which would by no means be a bad thing.
Lets not forget that weather/ tech has scuppered a few notable display items in tge past couple of years.. I think perhaps Peter has a few aces up his sleeves..
I'd be tempted to say something from Belgium and maybe France..with a Swedish/Norwegian appearance an outside bet..
Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]
Luke28 wrote:More likely to be two classic jets I'd have thought, which would by no means be a bad thing.
Awaiting paperwork normally means NATO assets as civilian acts are booked rather than applied for.
Lo que volará volará whatever will fly will fly!!
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]
alpha586 wrote:Luke28 wrote:More likely to be two classic jets I'd have thought, which would by no means be a bad thing.
Awaiting paperwork normally means NATO assets as civilian acts are booked rather than applied for.
It's not quite as easy as ringing up civilian acts and saying we want you to display at our show so book us in, logistics of the flight of the aircraft, pilot availability and accommodation would need to be confirmed. Paperwork would have to be exchanged to prove insurance, flight status of the aircraft and the routine of the display etc.
Here's hoping it's 2 fast jets from abroad (Italian tornado would be brilliant) but if not all the classic jets flying in the U.K. Are magnificent.
Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]
Adamwilliams132 wrote:
Here's hoping it's 2 fast jets from abroad (Italian tornado would be brilliant) but if not all the classic jets flying in the U.K. Are magnificent.
More likely a JP or two
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]
Screechy wrote:Adamwilliams132 wrote:
Here's hoping it's 2 fast jets from abroad (Italian tornado would be brilliant) but if not all the classic jets flying in the U.K. Are magnificent.
More likely a JP or two
I doubt it with the strikemasters already booked.
Gnat display team would be a good shout though after they didn't make it last year.
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]
Are the Gnat team still on the circuit? Haven't heard much for a while...
If we're talking International (FJ) participation, maybe the FAF Dassault Rafale and Polish F16 Tiger. Realistically, it will be something much closer to home - possibly the Sea Vixen and/or Vampire, but this is purely guess work.
7 ongoing discussions with overseas participation, according to the website. You'd have thought something would come from that, but who knows.
If we're talking International (FJ) participation, maybe the FAF Dassault Rafale and Polish F16 Tiger. Realistically, it will be something much closer to home - possibly the Sea Vixen and/or Vampire, but this is purely guess work.
7 ongoing discussions with overseas participation, according to the website. You'd have thought something would come from that, but who knows.
Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]
There is the FAF Alpha Jet solo now and I remember the Belgian one in the display a few years ago and quite enjoyed it.
Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]
Adamwilliams132 wrote:alpha586 wrote:Luke28 wrote:More likely to be two classic jets I'd have thought, which would by no means be a bad thing.
Awaiting paperwork normally means NATO assets as civilian acts are booked rather than applied for.
It's not quite as easy as ringing up civilian acts and saying we want you to display at our show so book us in, logistics of the flight of the aircraft, pilot availability and accommodation would need to be confirmed. Paperwork would have to be exchanged to prove insurance, flight status of the aircraft and the routine of the display etc.
Here's hoping it's 2 fast jets from abroad (Italian tornado would be brilliant) but if not all the classic jets flying in the U.K. Are magnificent.
Sorry I wasn't implying that civi acts are just booked on a whim I understand that there is still a procedure to follow but going on a previous post explaining how the acts were booked/applied for it was stated that quotes are sought from civi acts I just assumed that these would be accompanied by all necessary requirements for aircraft and pilot/crew. Going on past experience awaiting paperwork normally ( not always) implies NATO. I hope I am right on this one but as always will be first to admit when I've got it totally wrong!
Lo que volará volará whatever will fly will fly!!