RIAT 2018 discussion

Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby harkins on Thu 08 Mar 2018, 1:52 pm

Just thought it might be interesting(ish) to put some facts/context up here; this is the state of play at this same point 2017:

16 Feb 2017
First Thursday update of the year:
German Navy
EC-135 (s)
P-3C Orion (s)
Sea Lynx (s)

23 Feb 17
Swiss Air Force
F-5E Tiger II Patrouille Suisse (f)

02 Mar 17
No aircraft confirmations

09 Mar 17
USAF
F-22 Raptor (f)



This year 2018:

11 Jan 2018
Swiss Air Force
PC-7 Team (f)
F-18C Hornet (f)
Civilian
Vampire T.55 (f)
Vampite FB.52 (f)

18 Jan 18
Royal Canadian Air Force
C-130 (s)
C-17 (s)
CP-140 (s)

25 Jan 18
Civilian
Great War Display Team

08 Feb 18
Finnish Army
NH-90 (f/s)

15 Feb 18
Czech Air Force
Jas-39 Gripen (f)
L-159 ALCA (f)

22 Feb 18
Hellenic AF
F-16 ‘Zeus’ (f)

01 Mar 18
Spanish AF
Patrulla Aguila (f)

08 Mar 18
USAF
Heritage Flight F-35 & P-51

So that's 2017 3 updates and a blank. 2018 8 updates.

The following two weeks announcements in 2017 were the RAF; Red Arrows, BBMF & Typhoon followed by the Belgian AF C-130(s) and Sea King (f) and Spanish AF F-18 (announced on the Friday).

Now we can discuss which is the best list.
Last edited by harkins on Thu 08 Mar 2018, 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Airshowhammer on Thu 08 Mar 2018, 1:52 pm

One can only assume we’re getting the demo also?
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Wissam24 on Thu 08 Mar 2018, 2:00 pm

verreli wrote:It's a Farnborough year so we could have four F-35 displays. The RAF B display; an RAF B 100 formation flypast; the USAF A heritage flypast and a LM tp full display.


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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Flare Path on Thu 08 Mar 2018, 2:11 pm

Wissam24 wrote:
verreli wrote:It's a Farnborough year so we could have four F-35 displays. The RAF B display; an RAF B 100 formation flypast; the USAF A heritage flypast and a LM tp full display.


God help us


Yep. :grin: It's 2016 again.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 08 Mar 2018, 2:51 pm

Being a Farnborough year, I'd expect RIAT to have the obligatory civi airliner.
And I'd take that over a handful of F-35 'BBMF Lancaster'-style flypasts again.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 08 Mar 2018, 2:57 pm

Wissam24 wrote:Unless it's flying with Berlin Express, yawn.

RIAT bumf says P-51D, so unless they've converted 'Berlin Express' I'd say you've dipped out, unfortunately.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby AARDVARK on Thu 08 Mar 2018, 3:00 pm

Why exactly can they not roll it or loop it as yet (F35)
Will it never be able to do those manoeuvres ,similar to the F-117??
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Fumbles on Thu 08 Mar 2018, 3:07 pm

AARDVARK wrote:Why exactly can they not roll it or loop it as yet (F35)
Will it never be able to do those manoeuvres ,similar to the F-117??



Myself, TomG and a few others saw one roll way out in the Northern Nevada desert last year. :ninja: :wink: So it can roll, just for some reason not at a show.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby verreli on Thu 08 Mar 2018, 3:18 pm

AARDVARK wrote:Why exactly can they not roll it or loop it as yet (F35)
Will it never be able to do those manoeuvres ,similar to the F-117??


The mini Paris demo last year had a square loop, pedal turns and more. It was flown by a Lockheed Martin test pilot. The service demos always start with a basic programme and progressively expand the flight envelope. I recall the same for Typhoon in the early years.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby boff180 on Thu 08 Mar 2018, 4:34 pm

AARDVARK wrote:Why exactly can they not roll it or loop it as yet (F35)
Will it never be able to do those manoeuvres ,similar to the F-117??


It can, just that the USAF haven’t cleared it or considered they have sufficient crews/capacity to produce a full solo demo team yet. It was quite a few years before we saw a Raptor demo team be set up, we’re lucky that it’s taking part in Heritage Flights.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby rdchawk on Thu 08 Mar 2018, 4:50 pm

boff180 wrote:
AARDVARK wrote:Why exactly can they not roll it or loop it as yet (F35)
Will it never be able to do those manoeuvres ,similar to the F-117??


It can, just that the USAF haven’t cleared it or considered they have sufficient crews/capacity to produce a full solo demo team yet. It was quite a few years before we saw a Raptor demo team be set up, we’re lucky that it’s taking part in Heritage Flights.



Are the RAF allowed to roll and loop it?? Just thinking of the RAF demo
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby aviodromefriend on Thu 08 Mar 2018, 5:34 pm

capercaillie wrote:
Airshowhammer wrote:My spidey senses gave me a feeling. Thats a great addition, wonder if its the same display pilot as last year? can't believe its been 7 years since we've seen it! :grin:


Not that bizarre when you consider its only ever displayed at IAT once. :whistle:
Weren't the Danish there in '97?
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby CJS on Thu 08 Mar 2018, 8:08 pm

aviodromefriend wrote:
capercaillie wrote:
Airshowhammer wrote:My spidey senses gave me a feeling. Thats a great addition, wonder if its the same display pilot as last year? can't believe its been 7 years since we've seen it! :grin:


Not that bizarre when you consider its only ever displayed at IAT once. :whistle:

Weren't the Danish there in '97?


2 examples, but only on static it would seem http://www.scramble.nl/?option=com_show ... GB&id=1314
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby st24 on Thu 08 Mar 2018, 9:13 pm

CJS wrote:
aviodromefriend wrote:
capercaillie wrote:
Airshowhammer wrote:My spidey senses gave me a feeling. Thats a great addition, wonder if its the same display pilot as last year? can't believe its been 7 years since we've seen it! :grin:


Not that bizarre when you consider its only ever displayed at IAT once. :whistle:

Weren't the Danish there in '97?


2 examples, but only on static it would seem http://www.scramble.nl/?option=com_show ... GB&id=1314


That's very well but that's the '96 line up... Yes, a RDAF '16 was down to fly on one day only in '97, can't recall it...
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby st24 on Thu 08 Mar 2018, 9:31 pm

verreli wrote:
AARDVARK wrote:Why exactly can they not roll it or loop it as yet (F35)
Will it never be able to do those manoeuvres ,similar to the F-117??


The mini Paris demo last year had a square loop, pedal turns and more. It was flown by a Lockheed Martin test pilot. The service demos always start with a basic programme and progressively expand the flight envelope. I recall the same for Typhoon in the early years.

Pedal turn?!? Plenty of rolls in the Paris demo but I think it was dispensation for the demo, even though I despise the thing it wasn't a bad display..really. :joystick:
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby verreli on Fri 09 Mar 2018, 12:28 am

If you look at the Lockheed Martin video on youtube of the Paris demo, the pedal turn is at 3:41. It's a flat yaw turn at high alpha under full control initiated with the rudder pedals. Damn impressive for an aircraft without thrust vectoring.
Last edited by verreli on Fri 09 Mar 2018, 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby CJS on Fri 09 Mar 2018, 6:52 am

st24 wrote:
CJS wrote:
aviodromefriend wrote:
capercaillie wrote:
Airshowhammer wrote:My spidey senses gave me a feeling. Thats a great addition, wonder if its the same display pilot as last year? can't believe its been 7 years since we've seen it! :grin:


Not that bizarre when you consider its only ever displayed at IAT once. :whistle:

Weren't the Danish there in '97?


2 examples, but only on static it would seem http://www.scramble.nl/?option=com_show ... GB&id=1314


That's very well but that's the '96 line up... Yes, a RDAF '16 was down to fly on one day only in '97, can't recall it...


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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby spellow3010 on Fri 09 Mar 2018, 8:52 am

Brevet Cable wrote:
Wissam24 wrote:Unless it's flying with Berlin Express, yawn.

RIAT bumf says P-51D, so unless they've converted 'Berlin Express' I'd say you've dipped out, unfortunately.


Good possibility of the genuine red tail 'Tall In The Saddle' again from North Weald? :up: :dunno:
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby st24 on Fri 09 Mar 2018, 11:20 am

verreli wrote:If you look at the Lockheed Martin video on youtube of the Paris demo, the pedal turn is at 3:41. It's a flat yaw turn at high alpha under full control initiated with the rudder pedals. Damn impressive for an aircraft without thrust vectoring.

Surely that's a flat spiral dive, looks like a spin but the a/c hasn't departed controlled flight. A pedal turn is used to describe a rotary wing version of a stall turn, though again, the helo obviously remains in controlled flight. I've never seen the term used for a fixed wing aircraft. :question:
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby boff180 on Fri 09 Mar 2018, 12:09 pm

st24 wrote:
verreli wrote:If you look at the Lockheed Martin video on youtube of the Paris demo, the pedal turn is at 3:41. It's a flat yaw turn at high alpha under full control initiated with the rudder pedals. Damn impressive for an aircraft without thrust vectoring.

Surely that's a flat spiral dive, looks like a spin but the a/c hasn't departed controlled flight. A pedal turn is used to describe a rotary wing version of a stall turn, though again, the helo obviously remains in controlled flight. I've never seen the term used for a fixed wing aircraft. :question:


A pedal turn in fixed wing aircraft is known as a J Turn otherwise known as a Herbst Turn and (as far as I am aware) is only possible with TVC - it was the X-31's party piece. It is also part of the F-22's display.

A flat yaw turn is something completely different - the Swiss Hornet and Super Hornet both do it rather well.

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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby verreli on Fri 09 Mar 2018, 1:58 pm

boff180 wrote:
st24 wrote:
verreli wrote:If you look at the Lockheed Martin video on youtube of the Paris demo, the pedal turn is at 3:41. It's a flat yaw turn at high alpha under full control initiated with the rudder pedals. Damn impressive for an aircraft without thrust vectoring.

Surely that's a flat spiral dive, looks like a spin but the a/c hasn't departed controlled flight. A pedal turn is used to describe a rotary wing version of a stall turn, though again, the helo obviously remains in controlled flight. I've never seen the term used for a fixed wing aircraft. :question:


A pedal turn in fixed wing aircraft is known as a J Turn otherwise known as a Herbst Turn and (as far as I am aware) is only possible with TVC - it was the X-31's party piece. It is also part of the F-22's display.

A flat yaw turn is something completely different - the Swiss Hornet and Super Hornet both do it rather well.

Andy


This from the Aviation Week description of the display "From there, Flynn will pull up vertically in front of the crowd and execute a maximum AOA “power loop,” where the aircraft flips on its back—another signature Raptor move. Then he will initiate a spiral at 50 degrees AOA, called a “pedal turn,” which he says will be the most impressive part of the entire routine." The article is stil available online at http://aviationweek.com/defense/f-35-de ... nformation Either way, I hope Lockheed Martin bring an evolved version of this display to RIAT.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby capercaillie on Fri 09 Mar 2018, 2:19 pm

The article also says this which shows what a load of typical braggard bull it is. No other fast jet display takes off and goes into a vertical climb then? :sleepy:

“All of those airplanes that do air shows—the Hornet, Viper—they are all slicked off without all the external stores,” Flynn said. “They are a party trick at an air show, versus a combat-configured F-22 or F-35.”

The flight demonstration is carefully scripted to highlight the kinematic capabilities of the F-35A, particularly its slow-speed handling qualities, said Flynn. He will start with an afterburner takeoff, almost immediately pointing his nose to the sky and letting the aircraft climb away essentially vertically. This impressive move is unique to the F-22 and the F-35, he said.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby CJS on Fri 09 Mar 2018, 2:26 pm

But, it's the fact that the F-22 and F-35 can do it combat ready that makes them claim it's uniqueness. Yes the F-16 and F-18, plus the MiG-29 can do it, but as he says 'slicked off' and not combat ready.

To be fair, if it's to show off what it can do in a combat scenario then maybe they've got a point. The 'tooled up' Typhoon and Hornet displays from BAE and Boeing are less dynamic than the standard display from an air arm aren't they??

Also, unique or not, the take off of the F-22 is pretty bloody impressive compared to anything else I've seen.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Brevet Cable on Fri 09 Mar 2018, 2:47 pm

CJS wrote:But, it's the fact that the F-22 and F-35 can do it combat ready that makes them claim it's uniqueness.

Typhoon. :whistle:
And do inert weapons weigh the same as their live counterparts ?
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby CJS on Fri 09 Mar 2018, 3:03 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:
CJS wrote:But, it's the fact that the F-22 and F-35 can do it combat ready that makes them claim it's uniqueness.

Typhoon. :whistle:
And do inert weapons weigh the same as their live counterparts ?


Does the Typhoon demonstrate a vertical climb as part of it's take off like the F-22 does?

Don't know about the weight, I imagined it as the drag that was being referred to, as the Raptor and the Lightning are designed to hold their weapons internally. I don't expect either the F-22 or F-35 display with a full fuel load either, which they might on a combat mission. So I guess their (the display teams') point is to compare like for like.
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