Bike ride protest at Fairford airshow

[st24]

Actually Bob is being very polite and presenting his view very politely

Agreed - I'm finding it almost impossible to dislike or disagree with him...

French Mirage F1s and Russian SU-22s (neither, as it turned out, attended RIAT this year)

So at least we know who to blame now...

[krustydave]

[spiralkicker]

Where are you Bob you didnt reply to my p2p Bob.
Thought you were my saviour, really want to know mate why i was told that the manufacturers of certain energy using devices have invested too much money making these devices more efficient and were not yet ready to look at alternatives yet. money is more important than the enviroment then for them and their researchers Bob.
So you Bob are embracing the biggest enviromental issue our planet faces, the domestic carbon footprint, you Bob are worse than all (kettle black)
would love your thoughts Bob... this is the first time i have got to talk to an energy researcher!!!!!

Lost me with this one....

My job is to look at the design of buildings to see how they can use less energy, by using enough insulation in the walls, roof, floor etc. by placing just enough windows in the right place to capture warmth of sun in the winter but stop it over-heating in the summer. We spend a lot of time looking at methods of improving current houses to save energy. The idea is to use as little heating as possible, so that people don't have to spend so much money on a heating system and on running it. Clearer now?

Evening Bob no its not clearer!! that is a very short sighted and damaging (to the enviroment) view, now you have replied to my p2p thank you very much for that, now i have responded to it, please read it and respond again. thank you!!!!

[Concorde216]

Bob

Can you provide any concrete evidence that the Air Tattoo is a front to selling arms etc ? If the show is being used to do just that, can you therefore let me know who I need to see about buying a brand new Hawker Hunter or a Vulcan (I know some of you would prefer a Sea Vixen )?

I hope the leaflets you gave out were printed on recycled paper...

[jon93]

This has been a laugh to read, must say his arguement would be better if he just said this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh2sWSVRrmo

[spiralkicker]

Bob wrote....Yes, depressing, isn't it? Gardening is quite good, done organically.

Actually not true, gardening is only good if you leave your garden to completely overgrow, every time you cut, clip and then leave to decompose, the decomposition process causes greenhouse gases, infact you may be very surprised how much. just imagine the effect if we were all gardeners.
Transport and distiribution of plants in particular is also very inefficient many being transported from europe and indeed the world, but load space on vehicles as you can imagine is poor for such delicate articles many use airfreight and temperature controlled enviroments.
Gardeners are also largely responsible for the destruction of the peat bogs whose destruction themselves contribute vastly to the release of greenhouse gases, continued distribution of heavy loadfill products such as peat and compost also contribute to large harmful emmissions, as do the production of the compost itself.
Modern gardening techniques and fashion involve the movement of large quantities of stone and chippings increasing the gardeners carbon footprint even more.
The introduction of alien flora and fauna (largely through the garden trade) also puts many of our native species in danger, where i live the rivers are clogged in Japanese knotweed needing more harmful chemicals regularly (twice yearly) to try and control it, all contributed to by the garden trade.
Infact gardening is an all year thing contributing many days of green house gas production.

Infact an airstrike on your local garden centre would probably significantly reduce the amount gases produced !!!!

[Tomahawk]

Gents,

Sorry to disappoint some of you but Bob is right, RIAT, although not on the scale of Farnborough has a significant trade show element. Do you think those pretty white hospitality chalets are all about charity?

[bigwokka]

I think Bob may have an ulterior motive. All those spent depleted uranim rounds would have a great use in keeping houses warm. He is fooling us. He is really the owner of a recycling company who have failed to win a contract to collect the refuse.

[itfcscott]

leaflets you were handing out

Someone did like them though :

[Concorde216]

Gents,

Sorry to disappoint some of you but Bob is right, RIAT, although not on the scale of Farnborough has a significant trade show element. Do you think those pretty white hospitality chalets are all about charity?

You have the Patrons Pavillion which will have VIPs from the RAF, USAF and presumably participating countries Air Attaches, along with the Directors of RIAT/RAFCTE and visiting Royal Family members and Government Ministers along with a couple of reps from the comapny sponsoring the Chalet. I suspect that there maybe some rubbing shoulders but we do not know for a fact that any type of deals actually happen or start up. RIAT is keen to stress that it is not in the trade show business. How many defence contracts have occurred, purely based on the fact that a sponsor's aircraft has appeared at RIAT?

The remaining chalets at the show are;

The Aviation Club
Jubilee Garden
Trenchard Chalet
BAE Systems Employees' Enclosure

See the link here http://www.airtattoo.com/airshow/hospitality#Private Enclosure

Anyone can go to these chalets (providing they stump up the cash of course ). They are not exclusive to Aerospace and Defence companies (of course they can hire a chalet for their employees, like BAE Systems do). You would hardly try to clinch a deal in a chalet while the couple/group on the next table who won the lottery last week are listening in would you?

Looking at the footage of the chalets, wouldn't mind if a part of the FRIAT enclosure was like that...would really make the Mach 3 membership worth even more for the money I paid!

[Tomahawk]

Concorde216,

Companies have independent chalets in the pavilions with vetted customers and guests gaining access. Each chalet has it's own reception desk. Business meetings are held, deals are discussed and in some cases deals are done.

I'm not saying it's wrong and I have no issue with it happening but the bottom line is that it does happen.

[strangelookingalien]

I have to say that although I don't agree with any of the points Bob's raised; and would be happy to go into why if anyone cared, I certainly don't agree with the "f*** off" attitude he's received.

We started this thread, and he's only responding to our points. I'm always willing to listen to other people's opinions and most certainly champion everyone's right to free speech, in virtually any environment.

I certainly think for a variety of reasons Bob will get through to no-one on this forum, but i'd certainly lose respect for anyone who had a message and refused to share it with the very people who were supporting something abhorrant to them.

I'll go to RIAT for as long as it continues, and continue to believe that our Co2 emissions and arms trade are formally a non issue and latterly an important part of our economy (especially from a defence point of view, controlling who can receive what).

Respect to Bob though I completely disagree with him, and shame at some of the comments posted towards him from aviation enthusiasts.

- Alex

[fs9demon]

He gets the f*** off treatment from me simply because

a) MY opinion (yes MY OWN!!) is completely wrong according to him yet his is the be all and end all correct opinion!

and

b) According to him because I go to airshows admiring aircraft been put through their paces by skilled pilots I some how support people been killed by aicraft around the world rather then enjoying a hobby I love!!

[DanH]

Of course he has the right to express his opinion, just as we have the right to tell him how and why we disagree with him. And besides there is a time and a place for him to raise these issues, posting anti-aviation conments on an aviation forum is just inflammatory. How would it be received if one of us went onto an environmentalist or anti-war forum and posted our favourite pics from RIAT?

[Concorde216]

Concorde216,

Companies have independent chalets in the pavilions with vetted customers and guests gaining access. Each chalet has it's own reception desk. Business meetings are held, deals are discussed and in some cases deals are done.

I'm not saying it's wrong and I have no issue with it happening but the bottom line is that it does happen.

I understand what you mean, I have no problem with the meetings either (if they do actually happen). All I am saying is that it is likely that some of the people who go (or are invited) to the chalets could be current customers of a company who just want to thank them for their custom and nothing else, by treating them to a day out ('tis possible, those sort of corporate entertainments do occur without any talk of new or existing deals cropping up in conversation ).

According to him because I go to airshows admiring aircraft been put through their paces by skilled pilots I some how support people been killed by aicraft around the world rather then enjoying a hobby I love!!

Fair point. How can I or anyone else for that matter, take seriously the view of someone like Bob who thinks that all aviation enthusiasts like seeing people beeing killed?

[Russ]

Looks like you wicked lot have scared Bob away!

[Micky S]

I think Bob has a bit too much time on his hands

[bigwokka]

He's probably naked on his bike somewhere with a trail of daisies fluttering in the wind behind him, while in his head thinking how he can persuade car drivers that the tyres on their car are destroying rubber tree forests in Honduras.

[Concorde216]

He's probably naked on his bike somewhere with a trail of daisies fluttering in the wind behind him, while in his head thinking how he can persuade car drivers that the tyres on their car are destroying rubber tree forests in Honduras.

Ah but wont the tyres on his bike be destroying the forests too?

Shouldn't worry too much, with all the talk of saving the trees, I think Billiy Connolly made a valid point during a show once. He said "They don't tell you this...trees are the number one cause of forest fires!"

[André]

He's probably naked on his bike somewhere with a trail of daisies fluttering in the wind behind him, while in his head thinking how he can persuade car drivers that the tyres on their car are destroying rubber tree forests in Honduras.

[bobirving]

I have more respect for humanity than to ride around naked!!!

The person who seems to think that gardening is really destructive should please google for "permaculture" or "forest gardens" which are a bit closer to what I was thinking of...

RIAT seem to be reasonably sure that their show is the biggest military aircraft show in the world - they say it on their home page.

As far as its being a market place for military aircraft, its main sponsors are BAe Systems and Lockheed Martin. I'd take a lot of convincing that these two would contribute to this show if there wasn't anything in it for them.

Someone else is sceptical about the effect of CO2 and global warming... though the US Dept of Defence is less so...

http://www.cnas.org/files/documents/publications/CNAS_Fueling%20the%20Future%20Force_NaglParthemore.pdf which contains quite a lot of interesting stuff about DoD's use of alternative fuels and why they are necessary, including the reduction of CO2 emissions. But, hey, they're just load of tree-hugging hippies!

I don't expect to be welcomed here as I'm not exactly bringing good news. I am here to remind you people that most of the aircraft that you see at RIAT are weapons delivery systems which do not fight in nice clean dogfights like SE5s and Fokker triplanes over the trenches but are frequently used by money-grabbing tyrants or their stand-ins to keep their population down, leaving an unspeakable mess behind them. The manufacturers are also apparently quite happy to sell them to the tyrants. The planes may be beautifully flown by highly-skilled pilots but weapons delivery systems is what they are. BAe even held a little competition for school and college students at RIAT where they had to design and build a plane to fly along a wire and drop a bomb on a target, which sort of shows where they're coming from...

I'm also hear to express my disgust that they call RIAT a charitable event, given all the above. If you are going to support a charity, please don't support this one.

Finally, I'm here to high-light how much waste particular aircraft such as the Typhoon are, that each cost as much a hospital. The current government say that we are short of money, but they can find the money to waste on weapons to go on fighting the Cold War, even twenty years after the Soviet Bloc has collapsed.

That's enough for now. Thanks for reading this far. As I said before, please don't come next year.

[Martin the Martian]

Lecture us as much as you like, Bob, but do not tell me which charities I should or should not support. I will pay money to whatever charity I damn well like, and I remind you that the charity RIAT supports is one for the likes of those who give you the freedom you enjoy.

Thank you also for teaching us to such eggs. We all know that that these aircraft are weapons delivery systems. Despite what you may think, that we are all knuckle-dragging neanderthals, we are aware of what goes in the world around us. We don't go around wringing our hands in horror at the unjustness of the world in general. Of course companies sponsor events when there's something in it for them. I doubt any commercial operation, in any industry, is that altruistic.

And while I'm here, I'll also mention that your criticism of the air cadet movement is off the mark as well. It may be partially seen as a recruiting tool for the armed sewrvices, but it also gives plenty of teenagers opportunities to improve themselves and to experience things that they would not otherwise have an opportunity to do. In addition, plenty of people give lots of their time freely to make these things happen, without recompense, and recruitment is not top of their agenda.

I don't know what your game is, coming onto a forum such as this and basically telling us we're all ignorant warmongers, but if you wanted a reaction, I guess you've got one. Now push off, and allow us to enjoy our interests in peace, as you do yours.

[aceyone]

While I believe you are probably a decent well meaning individual perhaps you are addressing the wrong people

frequently used by money-grabbing tyrants or their stand-ins to keep their population down, leaving an unspeakable mess behind them. The manufacturers are also apparently quite happy to sell them to the tyrants.

Maybe you should be calling on those tyrants that you speak of ,especially those ( the majority ) in the East who sold most of the tyrants their weapons in the first place ,causing the West to spend enormous amounts of money to guard against the aggressive and dictatorial nutters in those unstable countries,I'm sure that most stable western nations do not want to be spending their limited wealth on ever more expensive weapons,hence the massive reduction in their armed forces !

[bobirving]

Lecture us as much as you like, Bob, but do not tell me which charities I should or should not support. I will pay money to whatever charity I damn well like, and I remind you that the charity RIAT supports is one for the likes of those who give you the freedom you enjoy.

The way they spend their money is here http://www.airtattoo.com/RAF-Charitable-Trust/The-Trust/How-the-money-is-spent Cynically, one might say that keeping social facilities at airbases up to date was the responsibility of the RAF as an employer. I would have to spend quite a lot of money to rent or buy a micro-light for myself (two are in there) - no charitable trust will do that for me.

Activities for air cadets - good stuff, I guess, but why do they have to sign up to the military to do these - the youth facilities across the country are being wiped out the current austerity.

Support for "the likes of those who give you the freedom you enjoy" appears to be limited to £30,000 for combat stress and £53,925 for the RAFBF (Benevolent Fund) to convert a building.

Thank you also for teaching us to such eggs. We all know that that these aircraft are weapons delivery systems. Despite what you may think, that we are all knuckle-dragging neanderthals, we are aware of what goes in the world around us. We don't go around wringing our hands in horror at the unjustness of the world in general. Of course companies sponsor events when there's something in it for them. I doubt any commercial operation, in any industry, is that altruistic.

I am not sorry for trying make the unjustness of the world intrude upon your complacency. And I must ask why I should respect your opinions if you are aware of these things and do not care about them. We should be grateful that we were born on the right end of what BAe Systems and Lockheed Martin sell.

And while I'm here, I'll also mention that your criticism of the air cadet movement is off the mark as well. It may be partially seen as a recruiting tool for the armed sewrvices, but it also gives plenty of teenagers opportunities to improve themselves and to experience things that they would not otherwise have an opportunity to do. In addition, plenty of people give lots of their time freely to make these things happen, without recompense, and recruitment is not top of their agenda.

Up to now, I have said nothing about the air cadet movement - I don't think - the competition to which I referred was, I think, run by BAe Systems only. Again, why are these opportunities only available via the military?

I don't know what your game is, coming onto a forum such as this and basically telling us we're all ignorant warmongers, but if you wanted a reaction, I guess you've got one. Now push off, and allow us to enjoy our interests in peace, as you do yours.

i'm on here responding to the sarcastic questions of the initial postings. As a protestor, my game is to tell you why I think you shouldn't support warmongering(?) via these air shows. I don't think you are ignorant, which why I think you might respond to my thoughts. Why should I leave you warmongers in peace? It's an old saying "Do as you would be done by".

[shaggy101]

Activities for air cadets - good stuff, I guess, but why do they have to sign up to the military to do these - the youth facilities across the country are being wiped out the current austerity.

I would suggest getting your facts right before you post things. We don't have too sign for the military even though we are part of 22 trg group. It is run like the RAF without having too sign up to them, as far as i'm concerned the ACO is one of the best things too have ever happened to me (i know i'm not the only one) and i've got no interest in joining the armed forces, in fact most cadets DON'T join the armed forces. It's win win all round but i am a little biased having been involved for the last decade.