Bike ride protest at Fairford airshow

[bobirving]

Oh, fair enough, if you don't have to sign up for anything...

Still think it's a shame that it's done under a military banner - would have put me off when I was young, like the Combined Cadet Force did. And as I said, it's depressing that there seems to be money for Air cadets, but other kids are losing their facilities. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jul/29/gang-violence-rises-as-councils-cut-youth-services

[DanH]

I am here to remind you people that most of the aircraft that you see at RIAT are weapons delivery systems which do not fight in nice clean dogfights like SE5s and Fokker triplanes over the trenches but are frequently used by money-grabbing tyrants or their stand-ins to keep their population down, leaving an unspeakable mess behind them.

Finally, I'm here to high-light how much waste particular aircraft such as the Typhoon are, that each cost as much a hospital. The current government say that we are short of money, but they can find the money to waste on weapons to go on fighting the Cold War, even twenty years after the Soviet Bloc has collapsed.

Are you aware that RAF Typhoons have been guarding the skies over Libya to prevent Col. Gaddafi - a tyrant if you will - from 'keeping his population down'? Also in action over Libya there have been Rafales, F16s, Gripens and Apaches to name just a few. All these types were represented at RIAT. Are they really a waste of money or should Gaddafi and other such tyrants just be allowed to get on with murdering and oppressing their own people because having the capability to stop them is a waste of money?

[spiralkicker]

Back to Gardening Bob, Dont seem to think, it is damaging the facts are there in black and white!!! get yourself up to where they cut the peat out the ground take a look have a protest!!! oh change of tune to permaculture now !!!! whats good for the enviroment about that!!
You are a victim, you are a victim of fashion and trends amongst minority groups, permaculture is just a word it means little in respect to recucing CO2 near me there is a large permaculture garden, to claim its good is meaningless, its just better than other more intensive garden techniques (in a few small ways) with a large proportion of the population being unable to participate its not going to change very much!!!, if you are FORTUNATE enough to be able to then participate that my friend is a f***ing privelage that many in the concrete jungle would love to have!!! obviously fortunate in comparisson to many of the urban generation, so dont use that as some wonderful statement.
As i said in our p2p exchange, i can give you stats and figures on the enviroment to blow you away and feel free to get your proffesor to call me (number on p2p if you wish) for any university to research reducing energy outputs on the heating devices you are is shocking, the domestic footprint is our problem!!! not a one off airshow!!
For you to embrace researching that crap as good is just shocking!!! you yourself are a disgrace and if the enviroment is so important to you pack that job in now or its a case of do as i say not as i do..that research is funded by those who pollute most. Hideous..
Go and sort those sorts of things out then preach!! if you want some advice on proper energy production problems call me...
The destruction of our planet is down to powerful organisations controlling our options, options you embrace and you say you care about the enviroment.. No Bob you dont want anyone esle to harm it but you, you keep embracing fossil fuels for a wage!!! enviromentalist my arse!!!

[NAM Updater]

.... And as I said, it's depressing that there seems to be money for Air cadets, but other kids are losing their facilities.

Most ATC units do the majority of their own fund raising via a civilian committee associated with their Unit - lots of parents and Cadet putting in hours of their own time and effort to enable their Cadets / offspring to achieve something - don't belittle it!

[Concorde216]

.... And as I said, it's depressing that there seems to be money for Air cadets, but other kids are losing their facilities.

Most ATC units do the majority of their own fund raising via a civilian committee associated with their Unit - lots of parents and Cadet putting in hours of their own time and effort to enable their Cadets / offspring to achieve something - don't belittle it!

Nam Updater

I totally agree with you. My parents were part of an ATC committee years ago when my brothers were in the cadets (I did not join up when the opportunity came and now, I regret not doing so). They did a lot of fundraising for the ATC (eg jumble sales to pay for new instruments for the ATC band and towards a new mini bus). The ATC took cadets to airshows, gliding, hiking activites and none of which was considered a waste of time.

I have to laugh when Bobirving describes aircraft seen at RIATas Weapons Delivery Systems and not like the nice clean dogfighters like the SE.5a and Triplanes. You really need to do your research. The SE.5a had two guns (a Lewis and a Vickers Machine Gun) and carried four 25lb bombs. The Fokker Triplane DR.1 (as used by the Red Baron) was equipped with two Spandau Machine Guns. Given that the guns on these two aircraft and the bombs on the SE5a are weapons, I think we can safely say that these "nice clean" dogfighting aircraft you referred to were Weapons Delivery Systems too...

Sorry to dissappoint but I will never stop going to airshows, no matter how much waffle is being given by people like Bob. If you don't like the airshow(s) then there is a very simple way that you can remedy this and that is...don't go to them. We wont mind at all.

[spiralkicker]

Heres a few scenarios just for entertainment,

Fred is concerned about animal welfare, on the day of his planned march the weather was so cold minus 10 i think, but this meant so much to Fred he donned his warm bear skin hat and animal skin coat to keep him warm and carried on regardless.

Bill is so concerned about equal opportunities for women, infact when he overslept for a conference on the matter he told his wife to hurry up and get his breakfast and polish his shoes, infact the conference was so important to him, it was going to go on for a long time, he explained to his wife this would give her ample opportunity to clean the house and have his tea ready for his arrival home.
Bill drove himself (of course didnt want the wife driving the car as he wanted to get there in one piece) and did his bit for female rights.

Bob is so concerned about the enviroment he expresses his opinions when he can, so concerned is he he works for a university researching FOSSIL FUEL burning devices on the understanding they could be made more FOSSIL FUEL efficient, funding for such research comes largely from the government and the major energy producing companies who need largely FOSSIL FUELS for energy production in quantity.
There are so many carbon neutral enrgy opportunites around but he does not research them, not his fault as the job he does is funded by those producing FOSSIL FUEL burning devices and the biggest cause of harm to our planet.
While he does this there needs to be a large resource of oil available at all times as any new device is sure to be burning FOSSIL FUELS for many years to come (alternative energy would not) and some people even think we go to war over oil!!!

Not meant to offend anyone here, but i guess its always a case of failing to look at our own shortcomings, its always easier to criticise others than look at yourself
I think "yasumono kai no zen ushinau" google it if you dont understand it....(sorry just assuming i know more than others as some other people do!!) infact i dont want you to google it as i'd rather everyone had better things to do, and they do say a google search uses as much energy as boiling a kettle!!

[mrlovepantsuk]

Googled yasumono kai no zen ushinou and nothing was found.

[aceyone]

Googled yasumono kai no zen ushinou and nothing was found.

Yasumono kai no zeni ushinau
Penny wise, pound foolish

[bigwokka]

I googled it and found... this thread!

I think thats a good example of wasted time!

[spiralkicker]

LOL penny wise pound foolish..( lol didnt really want you all wasting your time!!! god all those boiling kettles lol

My point was Bob is so concerned about a few things he overlooks the biggest cause of pollution there is, because it employs him... and thats what annoys me most..
All the do gooders so worried about others saving the planet... emphasis on the word Others.

[bobirving]

Sorry, folks, not sure what set spiralkicker off but I'm glad I've never taken whatever he's on.

My employers are a university. Our dept specialises in energy-efficient building. We get to work the same way as every else. we are paid out of a mix of industrial sponsorship and government funds. We research ways of making houses and other buildings waste less energy. I don't research heating systems, I research methods of doing without them at all...

I think my point about the WW I aircraft was that they were probably not used to bomb civilian targets to stop the population rebelling.

As for the ATC, if it's all benign and self-funded, what's with all the uniforms and RAF stuff?

With Libya... the NATO forces are there because of a UN Resolution, so whatever they are doing is legitimate. Of course, the reason that NATO went there was to prevent Qaddafy bombing 'his' people with the hardware that we've sold him in the past. Luckily we haven't sold him anything modern?
Though despite NATO's having flown an awful lot of sorties with the sort of aircraft that were at Fairford, Qaddafy has not been beaten yet.

The only people to benefit from this seem to be the planemakers, missile and bombmakers.

[NAM Updater]

...
As for the ATC, if it's all benign and self-funded, what's with all the uniforms and RAF stuff?
....

Ah I understand now - other 'para-military' youth groups like the Scouts, Girl Guides, Boys Brigade, St John's Ambulance etc

[phreakf4]

...I think my point about the WW I aircraft was that they were probably not used to bomb civilian targets to stop the population rebelling.....

Please stop lecturing us on a subject about which your level of knowledge is abysmal. I suggest that before making such statements you research your subject.

If the standard of your research at your university is similar to your research into military aviation, then whatever systems you come up with are likely to be useless.

Hint; look up Afghanistan, Northwest Frontier, Bristol Fighter, Eritrea, Palestine.....Edit; don't forget the German bombing of London in World War One.

Of course, people of your persuasion ("I'm right and everyone else is wrong") won't pay any attention to information which contradicts your viewpoint.

[phreakf4]

...The only people to benefit from this seem to be the planemakers, missile and bombmakers....

I would imagine there are a considerable number of people in Libya (as well as many who have successfully left that country) who would profoundly disagree with that statement.

[spiralkicker]

Bob you need to take what i am on and you might remember what you said in a p2p.
"My research is from those that flog heating kit" your words!! (THOSE THAT FLOG HEATING KIT) you also commented about some not being so good as you like. what else would you like me to copy in?????
Now that Bob is complete lies you have just denied everything you said to me in a p2p and that is exactly why you are on this forum blurting out rubbish when you are a seriously bad offender yourself.
LOL i do what you do Bob so i know exactly where the money comes from, i even used to work within a large energy company i know bob....
FOSSIL FUEL pays your wage and you are on here telling these people they are so bad, p2p me Bob take my number i would so love to chat to you on the phone you maybe in for a shocker LOL.
Very disappointed in that sudden change in direction Bob, i felt you were naive but with good intent. but that is very disappointing!!!!

PHREAK4 Before he starts researching other subjects he should bloody well research his own, for someone trying to drive carbon neutral research and energy options. idiots like this do us alot of damage!!! its hard enough to compete in this industry as it is...

Bob i think is actually a local with a chip!!! enviroment yes of course Bob

[Abingdonman]

I've got a relative who lives just outside of Fairford,when the airshows are on she stays at her dad's place.....he live's on the flight path to Brize Norton!
she hate's noisy military aircraft,I've tried to put her right many a time.....
anyway,Bob could have at least a few local's on his side by the sound of it!

[T_J]

Bob wrote,

Of course, the reason that NATO went there was to prevent Qaddafy bombing 'his' people with the hardware that we've sold him in the past. Luckily we haven't sold him anything modern?

Who is we? I assume that you are referring to the UK, or are you referring to the West? In relation to aircraft take a look at the Libyan Air Force. You will see that the vast majority of combat aircraft were from the Communist Bloc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_Air_Force

In lieu of combat aircraft the Libyans are relying on rocket artilley such as Grads. Again those rocket systems were supplied by the Communist Bloc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_Army

Though despite NATO's having flown an awful lot of sorties with the sort of aircraft that were at Fairford, Qaddafy has not been beaten yet.

Air power alone can't win a conflict on its own. You require coordinated ground forces. For example as in Coalition forces during the 1991 and 2003 Gulf Wars. The rebels in Libya are currently not in the same calibre as a professional army. NATO air power can only whittle away at the Libyan forces in a game of attrition. That game of attrition isn't helped when Libyan forces use civilian areas to position and hide armour and artillery systems. Libya is under an arms embargo and it can't replace heavy equipment that it loses on the battlefield. NATO has continually stated that the aim is not to provide close air support for rebel forces.

"Nato nations are in Libya to protect civilians. The rebels have proved themselves to be very courageous but we are not there to act as their air force," said one.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ju ... ot-helping

TJ

[CLOUDHAWK]

What we must understand is that The Great BOB can't be that good at his job as he thinks he is , or else he would now be out of his cosy little number tucked away in the backrooms of some Uni. somewhere .

[spiralkicker]

What we must understand is that The Great BOB can't be that good at his job as he thinks he is , or else he would now be out of his cosy little number tucked away in the backrooms of some Uni. somewhere .

[trebleone]

To give Bob his due, he's entered the lion's den and maintained a dignified and restrained attitude in the face of some quite unpleasantly aggressive posts; so he's earned my respect, even though I disagree with him.

Regardless of that - take a look at how much activity this thread has generated - with 168+ posts, 7600+ views and a 'hot topic' flag, this thread has probably raised awareness of his cause to a far greater extent than the original 'bike ride protest' that sparked it off.

The (relatively) few vociferous respondents to the thread are of little concern however, it's rather the several thousand views from non-vocal members and guests that is significant. Obviously the vocal minority of hard-core enthusiasts won't be swayed, but what of the silent majority that have viewed this thread? How many, having now read Bob's rational (albeit unsound) arguments, will find some sympathy for his views?

The fact is that every additional post on this thread is contributing towards raising the profile of Bob's cause (and I fully realise that my post is perpetuating this, but I feel that it needs to be pointed out). Personally, I would like to see the thread ignored from now on, so that it would slip down the page and fade into obscurity, but are you guys prepared to keep quiet and let it happen?

If anyone feels the need to respond, or continue this debate, perhaps it would be better done via PM, in order to avoid continuing to provide Bob with the soapbox from which to air his contentious views.