Thoughts on the show.

Re: Thoughts on the show.

Postby spiralkicker on Sun 24 Jul 2011, 5:42 pm

Unfortunately i wasnt introduced to airshows as such back in the heady days that ST speaks of.. although that does mean i cant be accused of being one that is living in the glory years!!
My first RIAT visit was 2010 just on a saturday and drove up the 3hour drive just for the day, under much pressure to come back in 2011, we decided to do the 2 days, that involved staying over to avoid silly oclock starts with the kids, we stayed in accomodation and thats not cheap in RIAT week with a minimum 5 day booking (o.k we could have camped) but the point is my family were quite disappointed in it..
Being introduced to this site by someone on the road outside the airbase to find arrival times, its been interesting trawling back some posts and i read that someone was shouted down for saying something like i bought my ticket assuming there would be something good there...
Well in order to get accomodation (wife wont camp) i need to book that pretty early as we had a lot of problems booking last year, all told it will be a fairly expensive week for a family, and on RIATS reputation i would be happy to book, but on this years show i just dont know, o.k it was an o.k show but thats the point just an o.k show and i am pretty sure 3/4 of my family would rather look and see what comes first and if its o.k just do a day, although for a good show i would be happy to do the week and do some arrivals and or departures too, so i guess its looking like nothing or just a day at the minute but really unsure...
Incidently the Saturday (and i am not blaming RIAT for the weather dont get me wrong) was kind of frustrating 2 soaked kids and a wife needed some action when the flying started it was just a case of wet depressed kids getting more depressed watching some pretty unexciting aircraft, my daughter is a aircraft nut and happy but my son and wife not so impressed if they are representative of the average family who attended saturday i am not sure they would be too happy to come next year at the slightest hint of a cloud!! maybe just a little inventiveness was lacking...
I will be going to a small seaside event soon, near where i live (great little show) but much of it was in the RIAT flying programme king air etc etc, if that was missing from the RIAT flying programme it wouldnt bother any enthusiast im sure and not sure the family really want to see it either..
spiralkicker

Re: Thoughts on the show.

Postby 81TFW on Sun 24 Jul 2011, 7:48 pm

TomG wrote:


Care to expand re: Static?[/quote]

The distracting backgrounds for one thing, and the location of some of the aircraft, which made some things very difficult to photograph (eg Hunters, Saudi Hawks).

How about putting the bouncy castles etc where the Hunters were (if possible - not sure if Fairford layout allows this) and bringing those aircraft at that end further in?

Things worked well at the A-10 end for 'live' aircraft, not so well at the other.
81TFW

Re: Thoughts on the show.

Postby TomG on Sun 24 Jul 2011, 8:34 pm

TomG wrote:
81TFW wrote:
TomG wrote:


Care to expand re: Static?


81TFW wrote: distracting backgrounds for one thing, and the location of some of the aircraft, which made some things very difficult to photograph (eg Hunters, Saudi Hawks).

How about putting the bouncy castles etc where the Hunters were (if possible - not sure if Fairford layout allows this) and bringing those aircraft at that end further in?

Things worked well at the A-10 end for 'live' aircraft, not so well at the other.


The Hunters & Saudi hawks were flying display aircraft and not statics; they were brought south side to give people an opportunity to take pictures of them - not necessarily whilst parked in the case of the Hunters but a little leg work would have given ample chance.

Tom
Last edited by TomG on Sun 24 Jul 2011, 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Postby Fat Albert on Sun 24 Jul 2011, 9:53 pm

If the Hunters, Saudi Hawks etc had not been where they were I doubt very much if you would have got any opportunity to photograph them, except when flying as they would have been parked over on the northside.

So to park most of the flying display planes on the southside has to be a good thing.
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Shorten show and missed acts

Postby BigRedDogATL on Tue 26 Jul 2011, 5:45 pm

This was my first trip ever to England and to RIAT. I came all the way from the United States for this show, which I expected to be extra special since it was the 40th Anniv. show.

I was looking forward to seeing all of the acts that were scheduled, including the Spanish demonstration team. Unfortunately the rainy weather on Sat. and Sun. caused the air show officials to cut out a batch of acts, including the Spanish team.

My thought would have been on Sunday, for the RIAT officials to bump some other acts that had displayed on Saturday, to allow those missed on Saturday to display on Sunday. From feedback of the people in the FRIAT grandstand around me, they would have welcomed one or both of the Breitling teams being bumped to allow the Spanish team to fly. And if not the Breitling teams, maybe bump the British Apache, since it was so similar to the Dutch Apache, or the solo Hawk display.

I was disappointed that the only time I got to see the Spanish team fly was when they departed RAF Fairford on Monday. What a waste.
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Re: Shorten show and missed acts

Postby robtheplod on Tue 26 Jul 2011, 7:36 pm

I feel for you having come all that way.. :sad:

There were some very odd decisions made at RIAT this year, with headlining acts ditched/cut short for run of the mill filler acts. It seems its lost its way a bit, but this has been discussed in lots of detail.......
robtheplod

Re: Thoughts on the show.

Postby tu16 on Wed 27 Jul 2011, 5:40 pm

Beitling.... big sponsors. If you are going to lose a display team, the Patruilla Aguilla aren't a bad choice.
tu16

Re: Thoughts on the show.

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Sat 06 Aug 2011, 6:19 pm

"Lacking The X-Factor?" - Stuart Norris reports from RAF Fairford, Gloucestershire.

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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Postby Kieron on Sun 07 Aug 2011, 8:58 pm

[quote="A380FWWOW"]My thoughts on RIAT 2011

"and also the Tornado Role demo, however the Role demo really lacked pyros, there were really tight with them in my opinion."

Whereabouts were you watching from A380 ? It was a bit unfortunate that we were placed further down to one end but this was the patch we were given and was most likely decided so as to avoid any problems with the northern taxiway. We tried to position the pyro's as close as possible to the display line and the FRIAT stand, but with Fairford being so huge, it is allways a problem. We use the same amout of fuel in each bomb for all venues (100 ltrs each x 4 bombs) and at Fairford we also added fuel to the DMS Brimstone hits to give them more visibility. I am sure the crowd down our end of the airfield had a better view and enjoyed the demo, the people behind us certainly did. Leuchars will be the last GR4 Role Demo and we might just add a little bit extra there !
Kieron

Re: Thoughts on the show.

Postby boff180 on Mon 08 Aug 2011, 12:44 pm

GAR have done an interview with Tim Prince and refreshingly, have asked the questions we (the enthusiast) wanted asked. It makes a very good read, some interesting snippits about Alexandra Burke cost the same as the Ukrainians and that she was an experiment. They also go into detail of how the decision over the Saturday flying programme was made and also acknowledges that non-aviation attractions were far too noisy this year.

I do have to say, fair play to Tim Prince for coming forward and discussing this.

Ps. I'm nothing to do with gar and not meaning to plug them.

Andy
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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Postby trebleone on Mon 08 Aug 2011, 1:04 pm

boff180 wrote:GAR have done an interview with Tim Prince ...


To save others the trouble of searching for it (as I did), here's a link to the interview: http://www.globalaviationresource.com/reports/2011/airshows-uk-tim-prince-royal-international-air-tattoo-riat-interview/index.php :smile:
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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Mon 08 Aug 2011, 1:31 pm

Raises more questions than it answers.
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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Postby st24 on Mon 08 Aug 2011, 1:48 pm

LN Strike Eagle wrote:Raises more questions than it answers.


Agreed. More in depth and pointed than I would have expected from them but still a lot to ask. And what is it with that white on black typeset - I can see the image for ages afterwards - it's horrible... :sick:
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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Postby IanOlder on Mon 08 Aug 2011, 1:56 pm

LN Strike Eagle wrote:Raises more questions than it answers.

Such as?
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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Mon 08 Aug 2011, 2:11 pm

IanOlder wrote:
LN Strike Eagle wrote:Raises more questions than it answers.

Such as?

As stated in our RIAT report, we'll be looking at the issues raised from RIAT 2011 in an article to come in the future. You'll find out when it's published. :smile:
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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Postby Jimbo27 on Mon 08 Aug 2011, 2:23 pm

LN Strike Eagle wrote:
IanOlder wrote:
LN Strike Eagle wrote:Raises more questions than it answers.

Such as?

As stated in our RIAT report, we'll be looking at the issues raised from RIAT 2011 in an article to come in the future. You'll find out when it's published. :smile:


Excellent! So have you interviewed Tim as well?
Jimbo27

Re: Thoughts on the show.

Postby DamienB on Mon 08 Aug 2011, 3:47 pm

Some good stuff but...

Tim Prince wrote:I wouldn't want to try and give an exact percentage but I would say that over 85%, possibly even 90%, of our audience are NOT solid aviation enthusiasts, so we have to offer them alternative entertainment


You have to ask why bother running an airshow if 90% of the audience aren't interested in aviation.

Tim Prince wrote:It is slightly frustrating, in my mind anyway, to see complaints about a concert on one day at RIAT when you look at the UK airshow scene and the overall variety it provides for enthusiasts. MiG-29 and Aeronavale role demo at Yeovilton, Thunderbirds at Waddington and then A-10, Rafale, C-27, Eurofighter Typhoon, Italian Tornado and Turkish F-16, for example, at RIAT. Surely no show, in this day and age, has a God given right to wrap up the entire most-wanted list under one roof, and isn't that, in reality, actually a strength of the industry in this country?


I don't understand this response at all; so booking a singer (for the same cost as a couple of juicy static items) should be OK because Yeovilton, another show entirely, managed to bag some juicy flying items? Er...

Tim Prince wrote:On the other hand, we were promised, without question, two Spanish Mirage F1s. Then, for whatever reason, the circumstances changed and the aircraft went to static only and were then ultimately pulled. We can't criticise the nation involved, even though you've got a signed piece of paper confirming their attendance, because they were coming out of goodwill; they had wanted to be here. And then, to add insult to injury, the Great British weather then precluded the Patrulla Aguila from displaying at all!


I did smile at that. The cynic would suspect that the poor old Patrulla weren't moved elsewhere in the display to punish the Spanish for the the F1s not turning up :grin:

Tim Prince wrote:The Flying Display Director and the Flying Control Committee, when they realised how bad the weather was going to be, proposed a revised flying programme for the afternoon which involved picking the 'stars' and rescheduling the programme for them to display in the afternoon.


Yep, well done FDD/FCC... but...

Tim Prince wrote:I just couldn't justify it


Oops. Better to hack off thousands of paying customers than risk offending a few pilots. But then...

Tim Prince wrote:I did ask that all display aircraft start up and taxy on time so at least the commentary team had something to talk about and so they could possibly take advantage of any break in the weather, but not too many of the participants were happy to do that, and I honestly don't know why.


...he's risking offending some of said pilots right there, surely? And...

It is just a great pity that many of the display aircraft have now extended their display routines so much, reducing the number of 'acts' the programme can contain. We started out with seven minutes for a solo display, to include take off and landing time. It was great as it left the audience wanting more, rather than some of the 12 or 14 minute routines that can perhaps induce the occasional yawn factor!


...that surely definitely offends many more! The solo Vulcan display, for instance, is more than 7 minutes. Is it yawn inducing as a result?

He also mentions the line-up is now identical on each day to avoid "huge offence" to items that can only be squeezed in once rather than twice. That does not explain why the running order needs to be basically identical on each day though, does it? It surely makes sense to try and make people try and do both days, not just one? With no variety to be found, why should they bother?
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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Postby Martin the Martian on Tue 09 Aug 2011, 12:35 pm

DamienB wrote:Some good stuff but...

Tim Prince wrote:I wouldn't want to try and give an exact percentage but I would say that over 85%, possibly even 90%, of our audience are NOT solid aviation enthusiasts, so we have to offer them alternative entertainment


You have to ask why bother running an airshow if 90% of the audience aren't interested in aviation.


I thought it was an interesting interview, but there is no way I can believe that statistic. Of 138,000 people attending less than 14,000 are aviation enthusiasts? I don't think so.
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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Postby trebleone on Tue 09 Aug 2011, 12:49 pm

Martin the Martian wrote:I thought it was an interesting interview, but there is no way I can believe that statistic. Of 138,000 people attending less than 14,000 are aviation enthusiasts? I don't think so.


The statistic can be manipulated to give whatever result you want, depending on how you define "enthusiast" :wink:
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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Postby IanOlder on Tue 09 Aug 2011, 1:04 pm

Martin the Martian wrote:
DamienB wrote:Some good stuff but...

Tim Prince wrote:I wouldn't want to try and give an exact percentage but I would say that over 85%, possibly even 90%, of our audience are NOT solid aviation enthusiasts, so we have to offer them alternative entertainment


You have to ask why bother running an airshow if 90% of the audience aren't interested in aviation.


I thought it was an interesting interview, but there is no way I can believe that statistic. Of 138,000 people attending less than 14,000 are aviation enthusiasts? I don't think so.


Tim Prince didn't say the audience weren't interested in aviation, he said roughly 10-15% of the audience were "solid" enthusiats. I take "solid enthusiasts" to mean the kind of people that frequent UKAR...not the average family group that like an annual day out to RIAT. Granted they have an interest in aviation but probably not the extent of most of us. On that basis the percentages make perfect sense to me.
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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Postby tu16 on Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:15 am

"What are 'stars' anyway and surely everyone's idea of that would be different?"

I would suggest that those aircraft who are displaying for the first time in the UK would be "stars". Those aircraft who might be a coup for RIAT.

Would the Brazilian Esquadrilha da Fumaca Smoke Squadron have been allowed to spend two days on the ground (I appreciate they did due a cancelled show!), when everybody else was flying? Or the F22 for that matter.

Why was Sunday delayed, but Saturday not? The weather clearance was expected on that day too... was Sunday delayed as a result of the feedback on Saturday?
tu16

Re: Thoughts on the show.

Postby 225Mriya on Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:33 am

Damien makes some very good points. At the end of the day it was Tim Princes call not to run with the re-jigged running order as he didn't have the balls to possibly offend the attending airforces, who I'm sure know the score with regards to weather and moving the display around - its not as if RIAT would have been the first show to ever move the display order around due to rain.

It shows a complete disregard to those paying to get into the show, and stinks of an attitude of "well they have paid anyway". If Tim cannot make difficult decisions, then maybe its time to hand the reigns over to someone who can?

As Sean Maffett said during an interview on Tattoo radio before the show when he was reminiscing on the RIAT, I wonder what Paul Bowen would think of RIAT nowadays.
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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Postby Chrisse on Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:48 am

"What are 'stars' anyway and surely everyone's idea of that would be different?"

May I suggest Mr. Prince take a look at the event's website occasionally. They were listed in a section called (thanks to a bout of inspiration) "Stars of the show", which somehow seems to have conveniently disappeared now?
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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Postby pb643 on Wed 10 Aug 2011, 1:11 pm

225Mriya wrote:Damien makes some very good points. At the end of the day it was Tim Princes call not to run with the re-jigged running order as he didn't have the balls to possibly offend the attending airforces, who I'm sure know the score with regards to weather and moving the display around - its not as if RIAT would have been the first show to ever move the display order around due to rain.

It shows a complete disregard to those paying to get into the show, and stinks of an attitude of "well they have paid anyway". If Tim cannot make difficult decisions, then maybe its time to hand the reigns over to someone who can?

As Sean Maffett said during an interview on Tattoo radio before the show when he was reminiscing on the RIAT, I wonder what Paul Bowen would think of RIAT nowadays.


Three quick points:

Is that 138000 paying customers?

Secondly there is a big difference between scrubbing domestic acts in order to make way for the stars of the show (assuming the organisers can fathom out who they are!) and cancelling visiting acts. I can't believe that the Tutor and Hawk pilots are that naive and delicate that they would not give way to visiting displays. The two are not the same and should not be treated the same. I cant imagine anyone questioning British displays being given priority treatment at foriegn shows.

I cant see the Spanish bothering next year at all, considering how they were treated this year.

The take home point from the interview... The £££ is king.

Phil
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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Postby TYPHOON3 on Wed 10 Aug 2011, 10:17 pm

I was supposed to be there for both days but due to unforseen circumstances only saw the Saturday show.I was disappointed when I heard the Sunday display was organised better than Saturday around the weather.I wouldn't blame the Spanish if they said no thanks in the future after being cancelled on both days.One question from me is how did Tim Prince know who was an aviation enthuisiast and who wasn't? If they are going to have pop singers on every year then put them on after the show has finished not while it's on-afterall it's supposed to be the largest airshow in Great Britain so surely aircraft should come first.Are people coming here to watch an air show or to watch popstars perform?I think most people come to see an airshow and if they want to stay a little longer and miss the que to leave at the end then they have some entertainment to watch and listen to.I really do hope that the organisers read and listen to the comments and feedback posted on here and other forums and all other feedback sent to them because if they don't I reckon the attendance will be even lower next year.
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