Flying as opposed to displaying

[tankbuster]

Not specifically an RIAT thread but probably the most appropriate place for it.

I know this is an air display thread but is there any reason why the big shows like RIAT couldn't include flying items rather than just displaying items. The US used to participate all of the time at IAT/RIAT/USAF shows with fly-bys without needing to have a full display. RIAT is now almost totally air displays and yet how many of the spectators would love to see a Greek F4 in the air rather a mediocre display by something else. Some younger members of this forum have never seen a Phantom in the air and despite us being treated to their presence that isn't going to change, except for those who are able to be there when they arrive or depart but not much use for the people coughing up their hard earned money on show days. Why can't we have a take off two flybys, one fast, one slow and a landing? There will be other items that this will apply to as well. This is now particularly relevant in the light of possible fast jet display limitations. One of my favourite display items from recent years was the Sabre. I didn't care how clever its display was but a few top side passes and I was more than happy. A few of those from a Greek F4 and I will be in aviation heaven. In static I will probably think very nice and walk on.

[Luke28]

You'd fit right in on facebook.

[WG655]

Some people are never happy.

Static displays have always been an integral part of RIAT, and I for one will enjoy getting the opportunity to have a close-up look at this classic fighter. Plus, with all the heads of air forces at Fairford, I suspect air forces will want their nation's most modern aircraft in the flying display (i.e. F-16) - particularly considering 2016's main theme. As frustrating as that may be for some enthusiasts, static is certainly far better than them not bothering. Also far better than having a two-Phantom sized gap in the static lineup!

[MRTT]

As WG said- some people are never happy!

[Tommy]

Not specifically an RIAT thread but probably the most appropriate place for it.

I know this is an air display thread but is there any reason why the big shows like RIAT couldn't include flying items rather than just displaying items.

They do have flypasts from non-display items. TTTE last year, for instance, Italian KC-767 flanked by an Italian and RAF Typhoon in 2013, the Brize Norton "Heavy" flypast, or the EIIR formation in 2012, of the masses of Hunters in 2011. I could go on...

So RIAT still do have that element.

RIAT is now almost totally air displays and yet how many of the spectators would love to see a Greek F4 in the air rather a mediocre display by something else.

The F-4 is an enthusiast's dream. I doubt Joe Public would care between that or a Typhoon display, and the Typhoon has far more relevance. Plus, you say further down that two passes and a landing would be sufficient. To anyone but the enthusiast, would that not look far more mediocre than an actual display?

Some younger members of this forum have never seen a Phantom in the air and despite us being treated to their presence that isn't going to change, except for those who are able to be there when they arrive or depart but not much use for the people coughing up their hard earned money on show days.

Same for any item that's static, though. If we applied that attitude to everything, then the display would be far too long, and I would rather see something in static, than not be at the show at all.

I get what you're saying - It's a great shame we cant see the Phantom displays of old, but that's a rolling process. We already lament the loss of the Tornado Role Demo, and give it a (scarily few) number of years and we'll be talking about how great it was to see Tonks at all instead of just boring Typhoons and F-35s...

Just make the most of what you can, when you can. If you're lucky enough to have witnessed Phantom displays, then you're doing better than I - I'm just happy to see the rare beasts at all.

And the above isn't even taking into account the common-sense arguments of display pilots, authorisations, permits, available hours/machine life for display work-ups, logistical elements, not being able to get really close up and personal with the machines in static etc...

[gs6116]

the big news out of the ACC/ICAS this year was that static and flyby limitations were revoked. so that being said hopefully some luck will continue to roll in RIAT'S favor and some US flyby support will be available!

[cg_341]

Happy to be corrected, but aren't fly-pasts still classed as "displays" by the CAA and MAA?

[Wissam24]

RIAT is now almost totally air displays

How so?

[Chrisse]

RIAT is now almost totally air displays

How so?

Because there are no concerts anymore?

[Wissam24]

RIAT is now almost totally air displays

How so?

Because there are no concerts anymore?

But I mean, did he miss all the aircraft on the ground last year?

[CJS]

RIAT is now almost totally air displays

How so?

Because there are no concerts anymore?

But I mean, did he miss all the aircraft on the ground last year?

Presumably he means full displays rather than flypasts - or he doesn't pay to get in ( ) so he can't see the static??

[tankbuster]

RIAT is now almost totally air displays

How so?

Because there are no concerts anymore?

But I mean, did he miss all the aircraft on the ground last year?

Presumably he means full displays rather than flypasts - or he doesn't pay to get in ( ) so he can't see the static??

Yes I do pay! and
Yes that is what I was meaning. The KC767 example quoted above was a good example of a flypast which gave lots of people to see a fairly unusual aircraft in the air rather than just on the ground alongside the other heavies. I like tanker demos. I think we are long overdue a French KC135 and Rafales.
My point was also remembering that some jet displays may be curtailed as a result of Shoreham but there is nothing to say that we shouldn't see them fly.
On another point re joe public. I think the man in the street is often the one that appreciates flypasts and doesn't need loops and rolls to be amused. Concorde never used to have to do a rolling display to please the mob and put the Vulcan alongside any other aircraft and the wows were very audible.

[Luke28]

The Vulcan could have turned up in the middle of the night in a baraclava and brutally butchered a puppy, people would still enthusiastcally applaud.

[Tommy]

The Vulcan could have turned up in the middle of the night in a baraclava and brutally butchered a puppy, people would still enthusiastcally applaud.

[tankbuster]

The Vulcan could have turned up in the middle of the night in a baraclava and brutally butchered a puppy, people would still enthusiastcally applaud.

[mavvymoo]

The Vulcan could have turned up in the middle of the night in a baraclava and brutally butchered a puppy, people would still enthusiastcally applaud.

This is why we need a like button

[Brevet Cable]

Nope....XH558 only killed sheep !!

[Flare Path]

Nope....XH558 only killed sheep !!

And cows... and horses.

[SWATCO]

RIAT is now almost totally air displays

How so?

Because there are no concerts anymore?

But I mean, did he miss all the aircraft on the ground last year?

Presumably he means full displays rather than flypasts - or he doesn't pay to get in ( ) so he can't see the static??

Yes I do pay! and
Yes that is what I was meaning. The KC767 example quoted above was a good example of a flypast which gave lots of people to see a fairly unusual aircraft in the air rather than just on the ground alongside the other heavies. I like tanker demos. I think we are long overdue a French KC135 and Rafales.
My point was also remembering that some jet displays may be curtailed as a result of Shoreham but there is nothing to say that we shouldn't see them fly.
On another point re joe public. I think the man in the street is often the one that appreciates flypasts and doesn't need loops and rolls to be amused. Concorde never used to have to do a rolling display to please the mob and put the Vulcan alongside any other aircraft and the wows were very audible.

I think you're comparing two different aircraft. Concorde was, and still is, a British aviation icon that nearly anyone you speak to, regardless of how good they are at identifying aircraft, will tell you straight away its Concorde. However, the Phantom being a good example, Joe Public could probably not tell the difference between that and a typhoon, F-16, tornado etc. The only difference for them is that the typhoon display would have lots of afterburners and high G turns, whereas your Phantom flypast would have very little entertainment value to them. After all, these are Air"shows", so the general public pay to be entertained.
My hunch is that there are less of these flypasts from rarities because Joe public would not appreciate them in the same way us enthusiast do, hence why other display acts are put in place of them.
I agree with you, I would love to see rare aircraft take part in flypasts, but realistically its not going to happen, as they wouldn't appeal to the masses; The masses being the people who make airshows continue year after year.

[st24]

Concorde was, and still is, a British aviation icon .

Well, half British...