RIAT 2018 discussion

Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby borismorris on Sun 24 Dec 2017, 8:30 pm

My first RIAT this year just passed and I had no issue getting a decent spot on all 3 days. Cant remember what coloured areas I was in but left of centre on Friday and Right of centre Saturday and Sunday. I wasn't there to take pictures I was there to watch the show.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby aviodromefriend on Sun 24 Dec 2017, 8:37 pm

CJS wrote:So I absolutely do not buy into this argument about Joe Public being squeezed out. Not one bit.
It's more the argument about the enthusiast that can't/doesn't want to cough up the extra cash for an enclosure. Joe Public doesn't care too much about a crowdline spot except for a few times a day for their little kids, so they can see what a landing or take off is. The parents easily accept to stay in their tents more than 10 meters (or 10-RIAT-measured-meters) from the crowd line.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Berf on Sun 24 Dec 2017, 8:50 pm

I am always there early. It was once a bit of adventure but now it's getting to be more of a drag but it is better than queuing for ages. However, once through the security the excitement and anticipation is a great as ever. Doing P and V means I have a lot of landing shots already. Do I want take off shots? Well the background ruins most of them for me so I am not too bothered rushing to be at the front. Having been in an enclosure once and there was not room to swing a compact let alone a DSLR I will not bother again. FRIAT - have not been a member since Greenham. I would have done it this year just the economics made it worthwhile but I was too slow off the mark. Maybe next year if the prices don't go up!
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby tankbuster81 on Sun 24 Dec 2017, 10:58 pm

boff180 wrote:Woe betide any of you guys if you go to a major US airshow where (at the majority) you have to pay to be able to get within 100 yards of the crowd line and then it's either in a grandstand or umbrella covered tables.... except for the extreme left and right of the showground... with the view from behind blocked by the rows of grandstands.

.... that's if you've paid an entry ticket or not.

RIAT is split into three sections, Green - Blue - Red. 100% (33%) of Green is available for the public to get to the crowdline without paying, around 15% (4.95%) of the Blue is available and around 85% (28.05%) of Red was available.

So that's about 65% of the crowdline is available to the public without paying and the majority of the centre taken up by those willing to pay extra, disabled, and the chalets supporting the airpower conference and the main sponsors.

Without the latter two - the show would no longer exist, it's no wonder they get the best view and best treatment as a result.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Dan213 on Mon 25 Dec 2017, 12:50 am

tankbuster81 wrote:
boff180 wrote:Woe betide any of you guys if you go to a major US airshow where (at the majority) you have to pay to be able to get within 100 yards of the crowd line and then it's either in a grandstand or umbrella covered tables.... except for the extreme left and right of the showground... with the view from behind blocked by the rows of grandstands.

.... that's if you've paid an entry ticket or not.

RIAT is split into three sections, Green - Blue - Red. 100% (33%) of Green is available for the public to get to the crowdline without paying, around 15% (4.95%) of the Blue is available and around 85% (28.05%) of Red was available.

So that's about 65% of the crowdline is available to the public without paying and the majority of the centre taken up by those willing to pay extra, disabled, and the chalets supporting the airpower conference and the main sponsors.

Without the latter two - the show would no longer exist, it's no wonder they get the best view and best treatment as a result.


And the majority of the corporate crowd have no interest whatsoever, all dressed for Royal Ascot, and more interested in how chilled the champers in, than what is in the sky. They could be put at either end of the runway, and i dare say they would not give a hoot.

Some of the the so called "helpers" have a disgusting way of asking people to leave at the end of the day, they may as well say we've had your money now on your way.

The absolute farce of the so called security checks (to me and the wife, and i quote, "which one of you wants to be scanned") with folks in either lines simply waved through, it's more a case of russian roulette.

The show for me is a very poor shadow of itself, and how it used to be run. Anyway i'm not here to argue, just expressing my personal opinion. Have a cracking christmas all.


Would be interested to find out how you know that “the majority of the corporate crowd have no interest”

Have you carried out a survey or something?

If not, then please don’t make completely unfounded statements...
Dan213

Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby speedbird2639 on Tue 26 Dec 2017, 12:28 am

No survey required, i have these marvellous devices called eyes, and have been attending for 30 years or more to various shows. And whenever i have noticed said corporate folk, they appear to be uninterested as to what is in the sky.

It isn't a statement, it's called an opinion based on my observations.


:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

This ^^ - everytime I'm anywhere near the chalets they are all stood round in little groups with their devices out swapping LinkedIn details. Just a gaggle of strawberry guzzling, champagne quaffing parasites with no interest in aviation beyond how they can get themselves and their company the next gravy train Government contract which will undoubtedly take 3 times as long as scheduled and cost 10 times as much.

Never mind moving them to the either end of the crowdline - move them to a field down by Kempsford village - they wouldn't mind/ notice as long as the free food and booze kept flowing.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby verreli on Tue 26 Dec 2017, 7:55 am

Having been, in a previous life, one of those people I can tell you that the food is great and the free bar is better. As for not having an interest in aviation, in my experience this is not correct. It's just that they're there to do a job. Most of the AA's, DA's or other senior airforce people I was hosting only watched their own air arm display. The rest of the time was for networking with industry and other airforces. So, if your aim is to see less foreign aircraft, go right ahead and incentivise it by moving the people that send them elsewhere. Remember the law of unintended consequences.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby boff180 on Tue 26 Dec 2017, 9:09 am

Spot on Verreli,

I seem to recall that the reason we now have regular Japanese participation is that the Chief of the JASDF was at the Air Power conference and asked the question “why aren’t any of our aircraft here?” or something to that effect.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby RIAT Air Ops on Tue 26 Dec 2017, 9:50 am

Dan O'Hagan wrote:By way of comparison, clubs in the Bundesliga produce A4-sized programmes not unlike RIAT's in terms of number of pages. I think Bayern Munich's is under €2 this season, and the same sort of price at Dortmund and Schalke. They might get discounts for producing them for 17 home games a year as opposed to RIAT's annual order, but there is no way on Earth a £15 magazine can be justified, especially when the content is wafer-thin and heavily subsidised.

When UKAR next cosy up to Armstrong, perhaps the programme rip-off can be addressed.


Merry Christmas Dan. Rather than quoting costs for Germany why not quote the costs for an equivalent Premier League game in England?

Tom
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby tankbuster81 on Tue 26 Dec 2017, 10:12 am

speedbird2639 wrote:
No survey required, i have these marvellous devices called eyes, and have been attending for 30 years or more to various shows. And whenever i have noticed said corporate folk, they appear to be uninterested as to what is in the sky.

It isn't a statement, it's called an opinion based on my observations.


:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

This ^^ - everytime I'm anywhere near the chalets they are all stood round in little groups with their devices out swapping LinkedIn details. Just a gaggle of strawberry guzzling, champagne quaffing parasites with no interest in aviation beyond how they can get themselves and their company the next gravy train Government contract which will undoubtedly take 3 times as long as scheduled and cost 10 times as much.

Never mind moving them to the either end of the crowdline - move them to a field down by Kempsford village - they wouldn't mind/ notice as long as the free food and booze kept flowing.


Thats pretty much it Speedbird. Maybe these folk could just be there mainly on the Friday, or a previous day, a bit more like the Farnborough model, leaving the weekend to be more for the enthusiast and general public.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby aviodromefriend on Tue 26 Dec 2017, 10:21 am

RIAT Air Ops wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote:By way of comparison, clubs in the Bundesliga produce A4-sized programmes not unlike RIAT's in terms of number of pages. I think Bayern Munich's is under €2 this season, and the same sort of price at Dortmund and Schalke. They might get discounts for producing them for 17 home games a year as opposed to RIAT's annual order, but there is no way on Earth a £15 magazine can be justified, especially when the content is wafer-thin and heavily subsidised.

When UKAR next cosy up to Armstrong, perhaps the programme rip-off can be addressed.


Merry Christmas Dan. Rather than quoting costs for Germany why not quote the costs for an equivalent Premier League game in England?

Tom
And/or cpmpare a Bundesliga program with an ILA-Guide (which doesn't have a flying program in it BTW) to bring in a difference between football and airshows. Oh, and are those Bundesliga programs printed on the same sort of paper (quality of the paper itself, not the content that is printed on it) than RIAT's souvenir program?
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Harvo266 on Tue 26 Dec 2017, 9:03 pm

Hi all, does anyone know if it’s possible to change my grandstand seats for the viewing village. I received tickets yesterday with specific seats chosen, but I’d like to alter them slightly. Thanks in advance
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby speedbird2639 on Tue 26 Dec 2017, 9:06 pm

Please check your order carefully as changes later will incur a fee of £20


Looks like you potentially can but its going to cost. And if you are wishing to move to a different seat then it no doubt depends on the availability of same.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby mavvymoo on Wed 27 Dec 2017, 4:45 pm

RIAT Air Ops wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote:By way of comparison, clubs in the Bundesliga produce A4-sized programmes not unlike RIAT's in terms of number of pages. I think Bayern Munich's is under €2 this season, and the same sort of price at Dortmund and Schalke. They might get discounts for producing them for 17 home games a year as opposed to RIAT's annual order, but there is no way on Earth a £15 magazine can be justified, especially when the content is wafer-thin and heavily subsidised.

When UKAR next cosy up to Armstrong, perhaps the programme rip-off can be addressed.


Merry Christmas Dan. Rather than quoting costs for Germany why not quote the costs for an equivalent Premier League game in England?

Tom

Leeds United's programme costs (around 70 pages) peaked at £4 when a notoriously greedy and shady character was in charge. That represented a cost roughly 20% of the cheapest ticket to a game that was acknowledged at the time as being among the ten highest priced grounds despite not being in the Premier League at the time. Even today Leeds United's most expensive ticket purchased on the day (attracts an additional £5 charge) costs £39 - again considered expensive by the customers - but perhaps we're comparing apples and oranges here. On the Scampton thread I've mentioned that football matches are unpredictable in their content and perhaps air displays have become jaded and predictable. The RIAT programmes are pleasing to the eye but rarely contain something that you cannot find on the internet.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby speedbird2639 on Wed 27 Dec 2017, 5:14 pm

but rarely contain something that you cannot find on the internet


I think that is the gist of the matter here - why pay £15 for information you can get for free elsewhere. If you see your £15 for the programme simply as an additional donation to the RAF charity then why not just make a donation rather than buy the programme and then they would be able to claim your income tax back via Gift Aid as well.

In the now well established internet era DBH are going to have to find new ways of monetising their product because £15 for a flying order that will have no doubt changed since it went to the printers isn't OK.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Go4Long on Wed 27 Dec 2017, 7:16 pm

speedbird2639 wrote:In the now well established internet era DBH are going to have to find new ways of monetising their product because £15 for a flying order that will have no doubt changed since it went to the printers isn't OK.


Not to kick a dead horse here, but I can assure you that they are more than capable of determining whether or not the programs are profitable, and adjusting their prices accordingly. The fact that we might not particularly like the price is completely irrelevant to the equation, as is what you might be able to get a soccer (or football if you prefer) program for.

I think 2 pages of discussion on whether or not we think the programs are over priced is a little excessive...much like many things, the price is the price. Your choice is to purchase them for the price they are offering them at, or not. There is no third option. It's like the U-2 shirts...were they more expensive than every other shirt on the premises last year? definitely...did they sell them all? yes. Then I guess the price was good.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Tommy on Wed 27 Dec 2017, 7:21 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:When UKAR next cosy up to Armstrong, perhaps the programme rip-off can be addressed.


No need for the dig, but the overarching point is agreed, however just to be fair; from the 2017 review:

The souvenir programme remains at an eye-watering cost in addition to all of the other expenditures throughout the weekend. £12 for a programme that is chock-full of advertisements is too much


My thoughts haven’t changed on the matter. £15 is ridiculous.

It’s not just a matter of the flying order, or interviews, though. It’s in the name; some people, like me, enjoy having programmes from airshows of yesteryear as a fun and complete souvenir, a nice momento, and something to look back on. It’s pricing people out of nostalgia.

How often do we see programmes from airshows of the golden years posted here and a myriad of comments full of “what times!” etc etc...

But a family of four with mouths who want overpriced catering and maybe a patch and sticker for the kids and a cap, and maybe something for mum, and/or maybe an umbrella and possibly a chair or two... on top of the very high ticket price, £12, let alone £15, is far too much for what you get inside.

But, of course, year on year, they’ll sell, and like booking fees and admin costs, additional days which are not part of the “see every single plane!” (paraphrased, obvs) MACH3 tickets, and everything else in this day and age; the onward march of expensivity continues.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby The Baron on Wed 27 Dec 2017, 10:15 pm

RIAT Air Ops wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote:By way of comparison, clubs in the Bundesliga produce A4-sized programmes not unlike RIAT's in terms of number of pages. I think Bayern Munich's is under €2 this season, and the same sort of price at Dortmund and Schalke. They might get discounts for producing them for 17 home games a year as opposed to RIAT's annual order, but there is no way on Earth a £15 magazine can be justified, especially when the content is wafer-thin and heavily subsidised.

When UKAR next cosy up to Armstrong, perhaps the programme rip-off can be addressed.


Merry Christmas Dan. Rather than quoting costs for Germany why not quote the costs for an equivalent Premier League game in England?

Tom


Tom,
Could you at least ask the question to your peers at DBH as to why the programme costs are so high?
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby jalfrezi on Wed 27 Dec 2017, 11:21 pm

The Cosford Airshow programme had similar content but was printed on better paper - it was £6 this year, I'm sorry but there is no way you can justify £15 for a heavily subsidised programme full of adverts....

The Flying Legends programme is probably one of the best, printed on glossy paper and it's still less than half the price of the RIAT one, and it's a programme worth keeping.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby davidjones533 on Thu 28 Dec 2017, 9:34 am

.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby jalfrezi on Thu 28 Dec 2017, 10:03 am

davidjones533 wrote:Seriously, how much longer can this thread go on? Like anything else, if you don’t like the price then don’t buy it, but must we have this continued whinging?


I don't, and I haven't for a long time, but for anyone that wants the flying schedule they don't really have a choice, do they? Not unless they know about forums like this that post the flying program online.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Airshowhammer on Thu 28 Dec 2017, 10:14 am

The one thing that drives me nuts with RIAT is the need to have them blue 'RIAT' flags and corporate tents near the front. If you are on the east of the crowdline and look to the west all you see is objects in the way. Unless you get right to the front then its a massive eye sore. I just want to be able to walk along the crowdline and find the right spot. Much like Biggin Hill. In 2005 a majority of the crowdline was available to the public without extra cost. Last year when watching the Canadian C-17 arriving on the Friday i couldn't get a decent picture unless you rush to the front. Personally i think all the tents should be the behind the static line to the south. (Aviation stools and Breitling). And also get rid of all the stools that have nothing to do with aviation (wine tasting, paint balling, cheese cutting) just a waste of space. Probably say this every year! :grin:
and £15 a programme? Christ alive, you'll end up spending 30 quid on that and food! :shock:
Airshowhammer

Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Big Eric on Thu 28 Dec 2017, 10:17 am

Airshowhammer wrote:The one thing that drives me nuts with RIAT is the need to have them blue 'RIAT' flags and corporate tents near the front. If you are on the east of the crowdline and look to the west all you see is objects in the way. Unless you get right to the front then its a massive eye sore. I just want to be able to walk along the crowdline and find the right spot. Much like Biggin Hill. In 2005 a majority of the crowdline was available to the public without extra cost. Last year when watching the Canadian C-17 arriving on the Friday i couldn't get a decent picture unless you rush to the front. Personally i think all the tents should be the behind the static line to the south. (Aviation stools and Breitling). And also get rid of all the stools that have nothing to do with aviation (wine tasting, paint balling, cheese cutting) just a waste of space. Probably say this every year! :grin:
and £15 a programme? Christ alive, you'll end up spending 30 quid on that and food! :shock:


Stools? Isn't it a bit too early for the RIAT 2018 toilet thread to start? :dizzy: :grin:
Big Eric

Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby speedbird2639 on Thu 28 Dec 2017, 10:46 am

@airshowhammer

:clap: :yahoo: :clap: :yahoo: :clap:

Finally - someone who gets it!!

Agreed - move the corporate tents and the chalets etc* South of the static and leave crowdline free of clutter.

(*) I'm prepared to make an exception for the FRIAT grandstand but even that should be moved back from the front of the crowdline so the rear of the grandstand is on the Northern edge of the taxiway where the static is parked and the area in front of the grandstand opened up to the general public.

Regarding the retail outlets well that is just DBH proving they will take £ from anyone as long as the cheque clears. Not sure why people buy non aviation specific tat at air shows when these days you will almost certainly get a better selection and more competitive price online - just wait til you get home!
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speedbird2639

Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby jalfrezi on Thu 28 Dec 2017, 11:11 am

speedbird2639 wrote:
(*) I'm prepared to make an exception for the FRIAT grandstand but even that should be moved back from the front of the crowdline so the rear of the grandstand is on the Northern edge of the taxiway where the static is parked and the area in front of the grandstand opened up to the general public.



Not.....going.......to.......happen.......

As FRIAT is mainly used by photographers, moving it back would defeat the purpose of the stand entirely, the displays are far enough away as it is even with a long lens!
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