RIAT 2018 discussion

Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby sithrity on Sun 04 Feb 2018, 9:32 pm

Tommy wrote:I would love to see the US get to see a flying demonstration from the RAF at a couple of airshows over there.


I agree, watching this clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vgUs-VszBo of the RAFAT in the US and listening to the gasps and cheering, put a smile on my face.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Go4Long on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 3:57 pm

Tommy wrote:Agree with that, but it’s not just a US issue. Arguably a significant percentage of any foreign commitment at RIAT, and other UK shows, is seldom reciprocated by the RAF.

We are woefully, embarrassingly, inadequate at returning support to European, US and other airshows from around the world. That may be for several different reasons; significant cuts in the amount of assets the RAF have on show (or just have at all!), a huge number of UK events over the summer all demanding RAF participation of some form or other, or just lack of willpower in the higher echelons.

Which is why, to me, it’s ok to speculate on things like August 1st, because of the Red Arrows tour, but such attendance should never be expected. Same with the US. The “special relationship” is a fair point, but relationships go two ways, and at the moment we’re the pretty non-committed partner.

I would love to see the US get to see a flying demonstration from the RAF at a couple of airshows over there. Did we support them with a flying display for their birthday bash last year? I can’t remember that we did, so why should we expect one for ours?


All of the "underequipped" arguments really are a little ridiculous when you consider that we (Canada) fly a whopping 77 Hornets, and we're likely to have at least two of them on site at RIAT this year. We have 5 C-17's and one will be on static. We have 14 operational CP-140's and one of them is coming. We have 12 CC-130's and 1 of them is coming. We have 15 CH-147's, and we brought one of them last year.

And we're far from the worst equipped air force that regularly has aircraft in attendance at RIAT. I don't understand why it is that people think the US, or really anyone should automatically beef up the display at any UK show when seeing a UK asset at a foreign show is essentially unheard of.

It really does seem to be a one way relationship all around. I've never seen a Typhoon even on static outside of the UK.
Last edited by Go4Long on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Nielis on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 4:00 pm

Hi all.

This year its the first time I bought a Mach2 package together with three friends (been visiting RIAT since 2010). Can anyone advise how the seating is arranged? and what the unofficial rules are?

When visiting the USA last November I heard about a unofficial rule that you need to remain seated etc..
I'm looking forward to this years RIAT and my first time on the stand and I want to be prepared so that I don't bother any of the regular guys so any tips and trics would be very welcome.

Thanks a lot.

Cheers,

Niels
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Witchcraft24 on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 4:57 pm

Looking at their website, the RAF Typhoon performed at 27 UK venues last year (plus a trip to Finland and Belgium) and many were multi-day events. Looking at my 2016 Belgian F16 t-shirt I see it performed one display at home. Pretty sure that's the same for the Swiss F-18, Polish Mig29 and a host of other European display assets - if they didn't go abroad to display, they would hardly fly at all.

So, what do you want? A less vibrant UK display scene so that the Typhoon (or Reds) can go overseas and display? Both items are gold dust to UK display organisers.

The RAF have supported other air force centenaries (Russia, Netherlands, Switzerland and Finland - okay that was the country), and it is possible that some UK shows will miss out this year if the Reds or Typhoon go to Poland and/or Czech Republic for their 100 year celebrations.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Wrexham Mackem on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 5:10 pm

Nielis wrote:Hi all.

This year its the first time I bought a Mach2 package together with three friends (been visiting RIAT since 2010). Can anyone advise how the seating is arranged? and what the unofficial rules are?

When visiting the USA last November I heard about a unofficial rule that you need to remain seated etc..
I'm looking forward to this years RIAT and my first time on the stand and I want to be prepared so that I don't bother any of the regular guys so any tips and trics would be very welcome.

Thanks a lot.

Cheers,

Niels


This thread from last year covers it for you Niels:

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=76531

But yes, in the grandstand the etiquette is that you remain seated while aircraft are moving, except on the top row.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby boff180 on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 5:32 pm

I think it is an actual rule rather than an unofficial one that there is no standing in the FRIAT enclosure except on the top row. There is no standing on seats in the top row either.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Wrexham Mackem on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 5:45 pm

This is true Andy. In fact, I don't think there are any unofficial rules at all, they're all official and documented.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Tommy on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 5:57 pm

Witchcraft24 wrote:So, what do you want?


For there not to be hundreds of comments on Facebook, Twitter, and forums from UK enthusiasts expecting UK airshow participation from foreign air arms. And for people not to be getting annoyed because "China should attend, they owe us for the Red Arrows tour". For said enthusiasts to view foreign aircraft participation at UK airshows as it really is, a gift and a pleasure, not a right or an obligation.

And yeah, it would be really nice if we could actually see the RAF have time to attend foreign airshows (the individual assets' commitment to airshows is second to none, the BBMF, Reds, & Typhoon demo perform at vast numbers of different airshows) in the US, and Canada, or, heck why not, South America? Africa? Why not?.

A controversial opinion I've said before, but I think the UK has too many air events (and not enough airshows). Every bloke and his dog during the summer wants the BBMF, Reds, and Typhoon, plus whatever else might be on offer at their airshow/fly-in/regatta/festival/gala/sports tournament/village fete/history festival/outdoor proms, and what have you. Send that stuff to a foreign airshow on a weekend and "snub" a British event and social media and sensationalist-seeking journalists can go nuts.

Yeah, European countries have less airshows, so more time to commit to foreign events, but take the French each year, for instance. Oft times they're missing out on their huge Bastille Day celebrations, and perform at RIAT year on year, so it's not a completely clean sheet.

So, personally, I don't want a less vibrant scene, but saturation by definition doesn't create vibrancy.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Nielis on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 6:19 pm

Wrexham Mackem wrote:
Nielis wrote:Hi all.

This year its the first time I bought a Mach2 package together with three friends (been visiting RIAT since 2010). Can anyone advise how the seating is arranged? and what the unofficial rules are?

When visiting the USA last November I heard about a unofficial rule that you need to remain seated etc..
I'm looking forward to this years RIAT and my first time on the stand and I want to be prepared so that I don't bother any of the regular guys so any tips and trics would be very welcome.

Thanks a lot.

Cheers,

Niels


This thread from last year covers it for you Niels:

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=76531

But yes, in the grandstand the etiquette is that you remain seated while aircraft are moving, except on the top row.


Thanks a lot!
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Go4Long on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 9:08 pm

Witchcraft24 wrote:Looking at their website, the RAF Typhoon performed at 27 UK venues last year (plus a trip to Finland and Belgium) and many were multi-day events. Looking at my 2016 Belgian F16 t-shirt I see it performed one display at home. Pretty sure that's the same for the Swiss F-18, Polish Mig29 and a host of other European display assets - if they didn't go abroad to display, they would hardly fly at all.

So, what do you want? A less vibrant UK display scene so that the Typhoon (or Reds) can go overseas and display? Both items are gold dust to UK display organisers.

The RAF have supported other air force centenaries (Russia, Netherlands, Switzerland and Finland - okay that was the country), and it is possible that some UK shows will miss out this year if the Reds or Typhoon go to Poland and/or Czech Republic for their 100 year celebrations.


The 2017 Canadian Hornet, Snowbirds, and Skyhawk calendars all started their seasons in the states, did a full canadian show series from coast to coast, and then ended their seasons in the states again. the hornet specifically flew 28 shows, with 6 of them being in the states. And even still, that doesn't even remotely compare to what your typhoon does because of the distance covered. From the Hornet's first show to the third show was 2'600+ miles, then they worked their way nearly 2'800 miles eastward from there, before working their way another 2'600+ miles west, heading back 2'000+ miles east, then heading 1'400 miles south. There's really not a comparison between making a trip to Finland and Belgium and back.

Again, why expect something that your own military does not provide? What does our hornet, or our Snowbirds, or the Skyhawks gonig to a UK show actually get us in return? since the opinion of the UK folks seems to be that you are "owed" an appearance, what is it that you've done from an airshow perspective to be owed something?
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Berf on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 9:26 pm

I think you will find a good number of people don't think the UK is owed anything and find the paucity of UK appearances at overseas shows somewhat embarassing. I for one hope the Red Arrows, BBMF and Typhoon go to Radom for the Polish 100th after all they are part of the RAF100 as well.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Go4Long on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 9:32 pm

Berf wrote:I think you will find a good number of people don't think the UK is owed anything and find the paucity of UK appearances at overseas shows somewhat embarassing. I for one hope the Red Arrows, BBMF and Typhoon go to Radom for the Polish 100th after all they are part of the RAF100 as well.


I know most get it...trust me. It's just the constant comments from some about how they can't believe how little US involvement there is. Or that they feel that August 1st MUST come. Etc. Or how there's comments on EVERY single post by foreign air arms on Facebook saying that they should come to RIAT.

Last year you got a fly past of one of the most expensive aircraft to operate on the planet, and half of the comments revolved around it only being one of the days.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby The Baron on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 9:53 pm

First, I'd just like to make it clear that although I said I'd be disappointed if the US don't participate, I don't expect them to turn up with their entire display quota.
Second, I certainly don't expect countries to drop everything to appear as if it's our God-given right that they should. I appreciate any and all participation.
Thirdly, I'm quite happy to venture abroad to shows and regularly attend displays in France, Belgium, Malta and Switzerland. I accept that in order to see more exotic aircraft i may have to travel. I'm constantly disappointed by the lack of RAF presence particularly in the air although I've seen static participation on a regular basis - mostly Typhoons and Tornadoes but also King Airs, Hawks and the odd BBMF appearance, plus the odd Fleet Air Arm presence too.

I agree with Tommy too, in that there are far too many home based requests for RAF assets. Cut the village fetes etc and get the RAF out there, showcasing themselves to the world.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Gripenjetphotos on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 10:02 pm

I remember a few years back when the Polish Mig-29 was confirmed for RIAT, only to be taken off due to no participation of an RAF aircraft at Radom. After that, I believe the RAF sent an aircraft (can’t think what it was) over, and subsequently the -29 was re-added. Perhaps the Polish had the right idea?

On another note, can we EXPECT the U.S to release a huge wad of aircraft for RIAT in this weeks update? :grin:
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby aviodromefriend on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 10:35 pm

Gripenjetphotos wrote:After that, I believe the RAF sent an aircraft (can’t think what it was) over,
Hawk at Radom 2015
Gripenjetphotos wrote:On another note, can we EXPECT the U.S to release a huge wad of aircraft for RIAT in this weeks update? :grin:
No. I think it will be a few more months before we'll see US participants announced.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Airshowhammer on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 10:43 pm

People seem to forget this is the largest airshow in the world..
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Go4Long on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 11:36 pm

Airshowhammer wrote:People seem to forget this is the largest airshow in the world..


People seem to forget that it's because of the participation of the foreign air arms that it is the biggest airshow in the world, and if the foreign air arms were to take the same tact as the UK air arms and only perform in their home countries Air Tattoo would quickly become a very boring air show with a few grey tubes, the reds, and a typhoon.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby speedbird2639 on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 11:38 pm

Go4Long wrote:... Air Tattoo would quickly become a very boring air show with a few grey tubes, the reds, and a typhoon.


No it wouldn't - there would almost certainly be a Grob Tutor as well! :lmao:
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby harkins on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 11:42 pm

Not sure I'm getting this theme of RIAT should not expect anything or deserve anything because the RAF don't regularly send a fighter to overseas shows. It's a pity they don't of course, but as has just been pointed out, it's the worlds biggest airshow, it's not the RAF's airshow, it's got a long standing reputation that I think makes overseas air arms participate time and again and as for the US in particular, well they like to impose themselves around the world in many ways, so showing off their hardware overseas is right up their street and also, it's the US that base their aircraft in the U.K. not the other way around. The event is even hosted on a US base. So all in all while we can't 'expect' anything, it's pretty reasonable to anticipate US participation in my eyes. I'm sure they will show up with some stuff. I'm more worried about what else is available to come from elsewhere. I do slightly fear an anticlimax as hopes are so high and nobody is going to conjure up fast jet solo displays or role demos etc that don't exist.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Flare Path on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 11:55 pm

Some people clearly missing the point and/or forgetting the importance of the Air Tattoo worldwide both present and historically - far beyond the boundaries of just sending aircraft overseas.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby st24 on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 1:04 am

Airshowhammer wrote:People seem to forget this is the largest airshow in the world..

But its not. No where near.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Go4Long on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 3:32 am

st24 wrote:
Airshowhammer wrote:People seem to forget this is the largest airshow in the world..

But its not. No where near.


It's the largest military airshow in the world. Yes, oshkosh is bigger, but not military wise.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Harvo266 on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 10:23 am

I’m not sure about the Reds, but the Typhoon team have 3 European shows this year, which will be officially released in the forthcoming weeks
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby st24 on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 10:47 am

boff180 wrote:
CJS wrote:Well given that they aren't currently on there I suppose the answer to your question has to be yes. :-P


The heritage flight including the F-35A heritage flights are yet to announce their schedule.
IF we saw anything this year I think it will be them.

It’s kind of sad on Facebook that when a USAF account posts the news they were going to be announcing amended schedules a large proportion of the comments were from Brits saying it has to be RIAT... no it doesn’t and stop being so arrogant.

I do like however that some Americans have replied saying the USAF should stop attending British shows with flying fast jet assets as the RAF never send the Typhoon display to US shows.
To be honest they have a point, more often than not there are Typhoons in the US and they appear regularly on static (especially at Nellis) - it is technically easier for us to send the Display Pilot to the US and borrow a jet out there then it is for the US to deploy assets specifically for a show!

Don’t get me wrong I’d be as pleased as the next person to see a USAF flying asset at the show however I’m under no impression that we deserve or should expect it every year.

But its a little easier for the US to support global shows as they're a global power- be it long range muscle flexing flights from CONUS or having assets actually based in the area- we could have the F-16 demo every year using a borrowed USAFE jet if the pilot was free..
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby st24 on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 10:52 am

Tommy wrote:Agree with that, but it’s not just a US issue. Arguably a significant percentage of any foreign commitment at RIAT, and other UK shows, is seldom reciprocated by the RAF.

We are woefully, embarrassingly, inadequate at returning support to European, US and other airshows from around the world. That may be for several different reasons; significant cuts in the amount of assets the RAF have on show (or just have at all!), a huge number of UK events over the summer all demanding RAF participation of some form or other, or just lack of willpower in the higher echelons.

Which is why, to me, it’s ok to speculate on things like August 1st, because of the Red Arrows tour, but such attendance should never be expected. Same with the US. The “special relationship” is a fair point, but relationships go two ways, and at the moment we’re the pretty non-committed partner.

I would love to see the US get to see a flying demonstration from the RAF at a couple of airshows over there. Did we support them with a flying display for their birthday bash last year? I can’t remember that we did, so why should we expect one for ours?


But did they have birthday bash per se- I seem to recall lots of events celebrating the event but not one big event like they did in '97 when the RAF sent static stuff as well as the logistically challenging exercise of taking a BBMF Spit purely for the show and even painted it in Eagle Sqn codes.. :question:
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