RIAT 2018 discussion

Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Georgeconna on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 8:17 am

john001 wrote:Stars of the show will be August 1st


Heard that but they will renamed to April the 1st.
Cheers

George

2017 shows
Yeovilton via Webcast from My Armchair.
Foynes and Bray for my sins.
Thats me done for 2017
Georgeconna

Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby daveseth on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 8:58 am

boff180 wrote:The yardstick has to be Payerne 2014 for the RAF 100th - a two week show put on by a smaller Air Force and military.

- nearly every fast jet and display team in Europe
- middle eastern display teams
- dedicated celebration consisting of...
A) early flight - bleriot
B) World War One - biplane
C) World War Two - Mustang of MS
D) Cold War - Numerous Cold War warbirds
E) Cold War flypast - aircraft in D in formation
F) heritage flight
G) Modern solo displays - (puma and Hornet)
H) modern solo pairs display
I) modern solo pairs flypast with national teams
J) mass flypast of all elements involved in B through I
K) national teams display

Oh and... a celebratory pop song released in to the charts sang by a fighter pilot...
[youtube]http://youtu.be/6HZLb7Py5qk[/youtube]


What colour is the sky on your planet, or are you on drugs? that lot would be our defence budget for 10yrs...
daveseth

Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby boff180 on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 9:02 am

Well if a significantly smaller military (and Air Force) can pull that off for a small entry fee and cheap catering there is no reason not to expect the RAF/RIAT to match or better it.

The yardstick has been set.

Oh and the sky is bright fuscia isn't it? :icecream:
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby TYPHOON3 on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 4:11 pm

Will Totterdown be open?That's the main thing :wink:
TYPHOON3

Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby tu16 on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 8:39 pm

Out of interest, how much money did the Swiss throw at their event?
tu16

Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Flare Path on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 9:15 pm

JJC wrote:Better off using it as a chance for foreign air arms to help the RAF celebrate in style, than focus largely on RAF assets. As pointed out above, their really isn't the variety/quantity of airframes available to the make the RAF the centrepiece of the show.

Get as many 'Royal' Air Forces as possible to the show?

How about some nations who have exchange programmes with RAF squadrons?

Focus on the vast plethora of nations who have had their nationals serve in RAF (a good chance for some excellent and rare contributions from across the globe - Commonwealth nations etc.)

Would be surprised if we don't see a decent contribution from the USA again, special relationship and all that.


Agree with all of this. :up:
Flare Path

Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Wissam24 on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 9:37 pm

Sadly, I fear that the attitude shown by the RAF top brass in the last few years suggests that it's populated by the kind of won't appreciate that they'll only ever get one shot to mark the most significant centenary in military aviation history. I truly, truly fear this.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Gonzo230 on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 9:39 pm

MC hammer wrote:
My main hope is that they send more of it down to park and view west on arrival next year, 2016 was much better in this respect. Maybe a discussion for nearer the time.


We already do it when we can and it works operationally. Believe me, the first thing we think of when we get the pre-note from Brize is 'can we roll this?'.
Gonzo230

Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby MC hammer on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 10:31 pm

Gonzo230 wrote:
MC hammer wrote:
My main hope is that they send more of it down to park and view west on arrival next year, 2016 was much better in this respect. Maybe a discussion for nearer the time.


We already do it when we can and it works operationally. Believe me, the first thing we think of when we get the pre-note from Brize is 'can we roll this?'.


Thanks for the reply, your good intentions is all that I can ask for.

I appreciate that there is the potential for an aircraft to get stuck on the west loop for a while waiting for a backtrack, especially if a rehearsal is about to take place. It just hurts when gems like the Israeli C-130 and some special schemes turn off at the Charlies, without there seeming to be too much happening at the time, although via the radio, I know we are only hearing part of the bigger picture. (The Ukranians were unfortunate I know.)
My comment wasn't meant as a criticism of this year, just that presumably things were easier last year when it mattered, hence not too much missed.
My real problem is that I can normally only do the arrivals days, so if I don't get them then, that's it.
I will have every faith in the tower guys for next year, thanks for all the hard work.
MC hammer

Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby boff180 on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 1:20 am

tu16 wrote:Out of interest, how much money did the Swiss throw at their event?


It was self sustained for the most part via the entry fee and sponsorship.

The national rail service ran ticket sales, you also had to pay for parking "per person" rather than per car in an effort to be environmentally friendly.

There was also a spotters area on raised mounds overlooking the runway for which an extra ticket was available.

Breitling and two food/drink companies put up a lot of sponsorship - in return they got a monopoly on all merchandise and food/beverage available on the airfield.

The only thing that wasn't funded was fuel for participants, instead the Swiss Air Force used a proportion of its annual training/flight ops fuel allowance for the airshow - this meant there was slightly less flying operationaly in 2014 than other years but it was seen as being a viable trade off.

Costs were kept down by limiting choice on key things.

There were just three food choices if I remember rightly - Cheese Sandwich - Ham and Cheese Sandwich - Ice Cream. They were very reasonably priced, freshly made and very tasty!

The program was sold by Breitling and was on par with the cost of RIATs, it was however a very high quality document that covered the history of the Airshow. Also included in its price was a Breitling branded official show baseball cap.

It was a cracking Airshow and if Russia hadn't invaded the Crimea would have included the Russian Knights! However in response and due to the public backlash the Swiss Government made the Air Force quite publically withdraw their invite and cancel their attendance!

Andy
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Gonzo230 on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 6:25 am

MC hammer wrote:
Thanks for the reply, your good intentions is all that I can ask for.

I appreciate that there is the potential for an aircraft to get stuck on the west loop for a while waiting for a backtrack, especially if a rehearsal is about to take place. It just hurts when gems like the Israeli C-130 and some special schemes turn off at the Charlies, without there seeming to be too much happening at the time, although via the radio, I know we are only hearing part of the bigger picture. (The Ukranians were unfortunate I know.)
My comment wasn't meant as a criticism of this year, just that presumably things were easier last year when it mattered, hence not too much missed.
My real problem is that I can normally only do the arrivals days, so if I don't get them then, that's it.
I will have every faith in the tower guys for next year, thanks for all the hard work.


No problem, and I wasn't taking it as criticism.

As you say, there are lots of issues that would cause aircraft not to roll, that aren't obvious even on the RT.

There may be aircraft that have pre briefed us they want to park up ASAP because they might have a short turnaround time before rehearsal, or their support aircraft is already on the ground and needs to depart.

There may be aircraft that have extra security concerns that want to park up ASAP and be re-united with their ground security.

There may be aircraft that we could roll down to the loop but Brize have given us pre-notes on quite a few inbounds so we decide not to. We can only hold a limited number of aircraft in the loop, and they do take quite a while to backtrack. However, because we have no radar screens in the tower, there may turn out to be room after all as we don't know how Brize will vector them, or they might suddenly decide to go off for an air to air photo shoot at the last minute. The next call from Brize is a 10 mile check which by that time it's tight if we've committed to roll/backtrack.

There might be aircraft inbound that we need to get down ASAP because there's a display rehearsal/validation coming up and the pilot of that aircraft has said he needs a sterile runway (which then might not actually be quite ready for display at the scheduled time so it looks like there was plenty of time to get thing to roll).

We are all enthusiasts in the tower, and many of us are photographers (although sadly more use Canon than Nikon...........) .

The other thing to bear in mind is that we all have day jobs in completely different environments to Fairford. At LHR, LGW, Stansted, Manchester and Guernsey we are used to controlling civil IFR (well apart from Guernsey :pinkwafer: ) traffic that basically all do the same thing, with very standardised procedures, with lots of electronic tools to support us. In the tower at Fairford there's a few paper strips, a few pens, and a radio.

On the first day of arrivals there might be an element of us all 'getting our eye in'. For me from LHR, it does take a while just to get used to using paper strips and writing on them, coming from electronic touch screen strip displays.

Hopefully that might give an idea of some of the challenges we face in the tower. :up:
Last edited by Gonzo230 on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Gonzo230

Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby alans895 on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 9:45 am

I'm really hoping that the Ukrainians bring back their SU-27's in light of so many people loving their display and the resulting award!
alans895

Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Xray833 on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 10:10 am

Gonzo230 wrote:
MC hammer wrote:
Thanks for the reply, your good intentions is all that I can ask for.

I appreciate that there is the potential for an aircraft to get stuck on the west loop for a while waiting for a backtrack, especially if a rehearsal is about to take place. It just hurts when gems like the Israeli C-130 and some special schemes turn off at the Charlies, without there seeming to be too much happening at the time, although via the radio, I know we are only hearing part of the bigger picture. (The Ukranians were unfortunate I know.)
My comment wasn't meant as a criticism of this year, just that presumably things were easier last year when it mattered, hence not too much missed.
My real problem is that I can normally only do the arrivals days, so if I don't get them then, that's it.
I will have every faith in the tower guys for next year, thanks for all the hard work.


No problem, and I wasn't taking it as criticism.

As you say, there are lots of issues that would cause aircraft not to roll, that aren't obvious even on the RT.#

There may be aircraft that have pre briefed us they want to park up ASAP because they might have a short turnaround time before rehearsal, or their support aircraft is already on the ground and needs to depart.

There may be aircraft that have extra security concerns that want to park up ASAP and be re-united with their ground security.

There may be aircraft that we could roll down to the loop but Brize have given us pre-notes on quite a few inbounds so we decide not to. We can only hold a limited number of aircraft in the loop, and they do take quite a while to backtrack. However, because we have no radar screens in the tower, there may turn out to be room after all as we don't know how Brize will vector them, or they might suddenly decide to go off for an air to air photo shoot at the last minute. The next call from Brize is a 10 mile check which by that time it's tight if we've committed to roll/backtrack.

There might be aircraft inbound that we need to get down ASAP because there's a display rehearsal/validation coming up and the pilot of that aircraft has said he needs a sterile runway (which then might not actually be quite ready for display at the scheduled time so it looks like there was plenty of time to get thing to roll).

We are all enthusiasts in the tower, and many of us are photographers (although sadly more use Canon than Nikon...........) .

The other thing to bear in mind is that we all have day jobs in completely different environments to Fairford. At LHR, LGW, Stansted, Manchester and Guernsey we are used to controlling civil IFR (well apart from Guernsey :pinkwafer: ) traffic that basically all do the same thing, with very standardised procedures, with lots of electronic tolls to support us. In the tower at Fairford there's a few paper strips, a few pens, and a radio.

On the first day of arrivals there might be an element of us all 'getting our eye in'. For me from LHR, it does take a while just to get used to using paper strips and writing on them, coming from electronic touch screen strip displays.

Hopefully that might give an idea of some of the challenges we face in the tower. :up:


That`s a great insight in to a little known ( by me ) area of operations, thank you.
Xray833

Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Wissam24 on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 10:30 am

Gonzo230 wrote:
MC hammer wrote:
Thanks for the reply, your good intentions is all that I can ask for.

I appreciate that there is the potential for an aircraft to get stuck on the west loop for a while waiting for a backtrack, especially if a rehearsal is about to take place. It just hurts when gems like the Israeli C-130 and some special schemes turn off at the Charlies, without there seeming to be too much happening at the time, although via the radio, I know we are only hearing part of the bigger picture. (The Ukranians were unfortunate I know.)
My comment wasn't meant as a criticism of this year, just that presumably things were easier last year when it mattered, hence not too much missed.
My real problem is that I can normally only do the arrivals days, so if I don't get them then, that's it.
I will have every faith in the tower guys for next year, thanks for all the hard work.



We are all enthusiasts in the tower, and many of us are photographers (although sadly more use Canon than Nikon...........) .



Good to hear the majority of you are sensible folks then, with only a few bad eggs among you.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Gonzo230 on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 11:14 am

To be honest, it's when we get people on social media saying things like it's 'unforgiveable' that a certain aircraft didn't roll, or that 'you're not making any friends down here in P&V West' that we take a deep bnreath, and try and hope that the majority know we would roll if we could. :up:
Gonzo230

Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby MC hammer on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 1:46 pm

Gonzo, thanks for explaining how it all works, very enlightening.

I mentioned enthusiasts not having the bigger picture, seems like you guys, and your lack of radar, have the same problem.

Not being one for social media myself, I didn't appreciate that you get some clog on the day from west P&V. Still, keeps you on your toes, a little nudge in the ribs every now and again!!

I'll give this subject a rest now, thanks for your time.
MC hammer

Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby john001 on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 3:49 pm

I hope 2018 sees the end of the restricted static display on Friday. People spend a lot of money travelling from abroad and the Uk and want to maximise the opportunities of seeing aircraft in good light. Three opportunities is clearly better than two as amply shown this year. I can understand the shorter flying display and it is obvious that not all participants would want to fly on all three days (I actually quite like the shorter display day as it gives a better opportunity to look at everything else). Full flying on three days would also need more staff/costs etc so I happy to discount that but there only needs a few more people to 'patrol' the enlarged static. If it costs a fiver more so be it - that's not much compared to the hundreds spent getting there and staying.

In the 2017 discussion I made a comment about flypasts by RAF aircraft for some on the forum to declare it could only be done by display pilots. How this will fit in with 2018 I do not know. But is was clear from this you can have three F15s or two F16s flown by I doubt 'display pilots' . What's the chance of four or six Eurofighters or four C130s making topside passes?

Finally the BBMF this year was great. The effect of the addition of two aircraft was greater than the sum of the parts. Let's hope it continues next year.
john001

Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby aviodromefriend on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 4:55 pm

john001 wrote:I hope 2018 sees the end of the restricted static display on Friday. People spend a lot of money travelling from abroad and the Uk and want to maximise the opportunities of seeing aircraft in good light.
Which would mean there is nowhere to put the aircraft that arrive during the Friday. Better have aircraft for two days then aircraft not showing up at all.

The no-green deal was very well communicated since the Friday became a showday, so people do know (or better, should know) that Friday is not a full area day. Those that choose to attend and don't know that: well that is their fault.
A weather forecast is a forecast and just that

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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby john001 on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 6:07 pm

aviodromefriend wrote:
john001 wrote:I hope 2018 sees the end of the restricted static display on Friday. People spend a lot of money travelling from abroad and the Uk and want to maximise the opportunities of seeing aircraft in good light.
Which would mean there is nowhere to put the aircraft that arrive during the Friday. Better have aircraft for two days then aircraft not showing up at all.

The no-green deal was very well communicated since the Friday became a showday, so people do know (or better, should know) that Friday is not a full area day. Those that choose to attend and don't know that: well that is their fault.


Is it beyond RIAT to add a few more aircraft to the static park or even leave space for 'the F16' that's due in on Friday - I don't think so especially when the airfield closes earlier than on other days.

I am quite aware of the no green deal - I am simply saying it is time to end it.
john001

Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby speedbird2639 on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 7:21 pm

I'm sure I heard the commentary team say that with effect from 2018 Friday is going to be a full show they the same as Saturday and Sunday.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby strangelookingalien on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 7:51 pm

Yeah I believe the plan is for three full show days next year.

I hope there's some variety over the three days like there used to be (and like there was this year!) How i'm going to get round the static and ground displays I have no idea...
strangelookingalien

Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby aviodromefriend on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 7:58 pm

john001 wrote:Is it beyond RIAT to add a few more aircraft to the static park or even leave space for 'the F16' that's due in on Friday - I don't think so especially when the airfield closes earlier than on other days.
I don't think the airfield closes earlier on Friday, the flying display ends earlier. That is something different. Still you don't say where RIAT should put the aircraft that arrives on Friday if they don't have green as an active part of the airfield, perform a FOD check after the airdield closes on Friday and put all those participants in place before the USAF kicks the RIAT volunteers out?
speedbird2639 wrote:I'm sure I heard the commentary team say that with effect from 2018 Friday is going to be a full show they the same as Saturday and Sunday.
A saga that goes around every year. Don't be surprised if Friday in '18 is affected by a visit from a woman that has long passed the age at which normal people retire, effecttively creating one long gap in the flying display that won't be repeated during the rest of the show.
A weather forecast is a forecast and just that

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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby farnboroughrob on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 8:20 pm

aviodromefriend wrote:[quote="john001"Still you don't say where RIAT should put the aircraft that arrives on Friday if they don't have green as an active part of the airfield, perform a FOD check after the airdield closes on Friday and put all those participants in place before the USAF kicks the RIAT volunteers out?

Simple everything has to arrive on Thursday and you open on Monday for arrivals. I would be tempted by Friday if it meant I didn't have to get there at stupid o'clock, about 9 would be great, like Yeovilton. Quite happy with a reduced display. Just make Friday fast jets only!
farnboroughrob

Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Dan213 on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 10:43 pm

farnboroughrob wrote:
aviodromefriend wrote:[quote="john001"Still you don't say where RIAT should put the aircraft that arrives on Friday if they don't have green as an active part of the airfield, perform a FOD check after the airdield closes on Friday and put all those participants in place before the USAF kicks the RIAT volunteers out?

Simple everything has to arrive on Thursday and you open on Monday for arrivals. I would be tempted by Friday if it meant I didn't have to get there at stupid o'clock, about 9 would be great, like Yeovilton. Quite happy with a reduced display. Just make Friday fast jets only!


But when the majority of crews and aircraft are frontline operational aircraft, will making an earlier cut-off for arrivals cause issues for air arms bringing in aircraft 'just for the weekend' to speak. An example would be the static Dutch F16s. An extra day sat on the tarmac at Fairford due to having Thursday as the final arrival day, is a day that could have been used for training. Might actually be off-putting for some air arms
Dan213

Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby john001 on Sun 23 Jul 2017, 3:45 am

aviodromefriend wrote:
john001 wrote:Is it beyond RIAT to add a few more aircraft to the static park or even leave space for 'the F16' that's due in on Friday - I don't think so especially when the airfield closes earlier than on other days.
I don't think the airfield closes earlier on Friday, the flying display ends earlier. That is something different. Still you don't say where RIAT should put the aircraft that arrives on Friday if they don't have green as an active part of the airfield, perform a FOD check after the airdield closes on Friday and put all those participants in place before the USAF kicks the RIAT volunteers out?
speedbird2639 wrote:I'm sure I heard the commentary team say that with effect from 2018 Friday is going to be a full show they the same as Saturday and Sunday.
A saga that goes around every year. Don't be surprised if Friday in '18 is affected by a visit from a woman that has long passed the age at which normal people retire, effecttively creating one long gap in the flying display that won't be repeated during the rest of the show.


Showground closed at 6.30pm on Friday and 7.30 on other days.

There were not that many aircraft arriving on Friday - they can go where the TBirds were this year or in an area where the Canadian C17 was. I accept there are a number of aircraft that will not be viewable due to their arrival on Friday but there will be a lot more that can be seen giving us the customer a better experience rather than the frustration of aircraft sitting in super light, already positioned but unable to be photographed just yards away.

And according to RAF100:
A parade of 1500 uniformed personnel up The Mall to Buckingham Palace where Her Majesty the Queen will take the Salute and review a flypast.

So maybe she will skip RIAT.
john001

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