RIAT 2018 discussion

Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby st24 on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 10:58 am

Go4Long wrote:
Tommy wrote:Agree with that, but it’s not just a US issue. Arguably a significant percentage of any foreign commitment at RIAT, and other UK shows, is seldom reciprocated by the RAF.

We are woefully, embarrassingly, inadequate at returning support to European, US and other airshows from around the world. That may be for several different reasons; significant cuts in the amount of assets the RAF have on show (or just have at all!), a huge number of UK events over the summer all demanding RAF participation of some form or other, or just lack of willpower in the higher echelons.

Which is why, to me, it’s ok to speculate on things like August 1st, because of the Red Arrows tour, but such attendance should never be expected. Same with the US. The “special relationship” is a fair point, but relationships go two ways, and at the moment we’re the pretty non-committed partner.

I would love to see the US get to see a flying demonstration from the RAF at a couple of airshows over there. Did we support them with a flying display for their birthday bash last year? I can’t remember that we did, so why should we expect one for ours?


All of the "underequipped" arguments really are a little ridiculous when you consider that we (Canada) fly a whopping 77 Hornets, and we're likely to have at least two of them on site at RIAT this year. We have 5 C-17's and one will be on static. We have 14 operational CP-140's and one of them is coming. We have 12 CC-130's and 1 of them is coming. We have 15 CH-147's, and we brought one of them last year.

And we're far from the worst equipped air force that regularly has aircraft in attendance at RIAT. I don't understand why it is that people think the US, or really anyone should automatically beef up the display at any UK show when seeing a UK asset at a foreign show is essentially unheard of.

It really does seem to be a one way relationship all around. I've never seen a Typhoon even on static outside of the UK.

As hinted at elsewhere, we don't have the assets to do that anymore. Back in the day Vulcans and Nimrods were regulars at North American events. Admittedly in the UK we became very spoilt given the NATO commitment by US and Canadian forces based in Europe. Hell, if you didn't get an A-10 at your airshow, village Fete or goldfish's birthday party you'd really lucked out..
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Airshowhammer on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 11:44 am

Flare Path wrote:Some people clearly missing the point and/or forgetting the importance of the Air Tattoo worldwide both present and historically - far beyond the boundaries of just sending aircraft overseas.


What i wanted to say. Some people clearly haven't had their Weetabix this morning. Its like some of you don't want any foreign participation because we god forbid don't send the Reds/Typhoon elsewhere that often. It would be great to see the Typhoon blazing up at Oshkosh or Thunder over Dover. I mean if the Royal Air Force had a base in America that held an annual airshow i can assure you you'd see the Typhoon attending a lot more. When was the last time the Blue Angels attended? or are we going to get all PC about that as well. :surrender:
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Tommy on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 12:12 pm

Airshowhammer wrote: Its like some of you don't want any foreign participation because we god forbid don't send the Reds/Typhoon elsewhere that often.


No, it’s not like any of us want that at all. Not a single person in this thread has said they wished for that. Neither is it “PC”.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Wissam24 on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 12:50 pm

Worth noting that quite a lot of it is reciprocated by the RAF in terms of exercise and policing roles. It's not always just like-for-like airshow displays
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby HeyfordDave111 on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 1:10 pm

Quite a few UK aircraft attend US airshows whilst on deployment.

I was quite surprised to see an awacs, Jaguar and Tonka at Miramar one year while on deployment.

I would surmise that happens still?
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Berf on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 1:23 pm

Tommy wrote:
Airshowhammer wrote: Its like some of you don't want any foreign participation because we god forbid don't send the Reds/Typhoon elsewhere that often.


No, it’s not like any of us want that at all. Not a single person in this thread has said they wished for that. Neither is it “PC”.



Quite right Tommy
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Go4Long on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 3:56 pm

Yes, to be clear, I'm not saying that anyone should STOP participating in RIAT. In fact I hope more people do participate. I'm saying quite the opposite. I'm saying it would sure be nice to see the Reds or the Typhoon do a demo elsewhere. Or a dassault. Or a gripen. Or...really take your pick...if North Americans want so see a euro demo we're forced to spend money on expensive flights, ridiculous accomodation costs, etc to see them on the other side of the atlantic...my gripe is just that it really seems that a LOT of people take the foreign participation in Air Tattoo specifically for granted, and feel like the foreign arms are obligated to be there, and it would be nice if that feeling of "obligation" was reciprocated.

Canadian and US shows are made up of US and Canadian military hardware and civillian aircraft with a very occasional addition of a heavy from the Netherlands or something like that that was over here already. I've been to nellis a few times where there was supposed to be a Typhoon or similar on display only to have it not materialize. I've been to several US shows, and shows from coast to (almost) coast in Canada, and the first european participant in the last decade that I've heard of was Patrouille France last year, which I unfortunately didn't get to see due to my own schedule (no fault of theirs of course)...and Soloturk was supposed to come to Airshow London last year, but was scrubbed immediately after I secured my tickets to go.

We're flying a fighter jet across the atlantic to help you guys celebrate the RAF 100, but I sure didn't see any thing from your side of the pond over here to celebrate Canada's 150th last year.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Berf on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 5:00 pm

Go4Long wrote: I've been to several US shows, and shows from coast to (almost) coast in Canada, and the first european participant in the last decade that I've heard of was Patrouille France last year, which I unfortunately didn't get to see due to my own schedule (no fault of theirs of course).



Decade definition - a period of ten years

Red Arrows last US tour 2008.

Just scrapped in then... (I am just being pedantic I understand your point! :smile:)
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Berf on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 6:48 pm

Go4Long wrote:A decade is a decade :P


Now let me check the exact dates :smile:
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Go4Long on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 7:30 pm

Ha.

Back on topic. I'm interested to see how the CF-18 Demo changes up their act to fit in the UK regs. One of my favourite passes by them is the unrestricted climb, but it originates from behind the crowd. I'd imagine they'll just do it down the show line, but even then the UK regs will take some of the mustard off it due to a lower max speed allowance.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby FullCarrot on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 7:55 pm

Would be so much easier to support overseas shows if the government wasn't butchering the Armed Forces and that will continue for a long time to come, I'd love to see some of our display assets go overseas and I'd feel a certain amount of pride knowing that people around the globe get to enjoy the best of UK Aviation because lets face it, the Reds are the best display team in the world, the Typhoon is deliciously loud and dynamic, the BBMF is just food for the soul and I've always really enjoyed seeing a chinook get thrown about like they were trying to break it.

To say though that we just expect and take for granted the participation of any country other than our own is wildly inaccurate, I nearly peed my pants when the Ukrainian SU-27s confirmed last year but they also came as a reminder that the glory days of IAT/RIAT are slowly fading, we are less likely to see these rare items the more we snub the invitations to go abroad, but as I said the government is making damn sure that we are incapable of doing it. Look at the Tornado, cant even get a Tonka to display on home soil and in its final throws of RAF life. Shameful.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby sithrity on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 8:17 pm

Go4Long wrote:A decade is a decade :P


This wasn't a decade ago though. :grin:
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby aviodromefriend on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 8:39 pm

FullCarrot wrote:knowing that people around the globe get to enjoy the best of UK Aviation because lets face it, the Reds are the best display team in the world,
Number 5 in Europe, nowadays not even close to Patrula Aguilla. Don't start comparing them with, let's say, the Black Eagles.
FullCarrot wrote:the Typhoon is deliciously loud and dynamic,
Yep, but that one is the Italian, not the British.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby FullCarrot on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 8:44 pm

aviodromefriend wrote:
FullCarrot wrote:knowing that people around the globe get to enjoy the best of UK Aviation because lets face it, the Reds are the best display team in the world,
Number 5 in Europe, nowadays not even close to Patrula Aguilla. Don't start comparing them with, let's say, the Black Eagles.
FullCarrot wrote:the Typhoon is deliciously loud and dynamic,
Yep, but that one is the Italian, not the British.


Number 5 based on....?

Not seen the Italian Typhoon Display so I cant comment
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby aviodromefriend on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 8:53 pm

FullCarrot wrote:
aviodromefriend wrote:
FullCarrot wrote:knowing that people around the globe get to enjoy the best of UK Aviation because lets face it, the Reds are the best display team in the world,
Number 5 in Europe, nowadays not even close to Patrula Aguilla. Don't start comparing them with, let's say, the Black Eagles.


Number 5 based on....?
Watching and comparing flying displays of the top 5 European teams in the last two years.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby FullCarrot on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 8:55 pm

aviodromefriend wrote:
FullCarrot wrote:
aviodromefriend wrote:
FullCarrot wrote:knowing that people around the globe get to enjoy the best of UK Aviation because lets face it, the Reds are the best display team in the world,
Number 5 in Europe, nowadays not even close to Patrula Aguilla. Don't start comparing them with, let's say, the Black Eagles.
FullCarrot wrote:the Typhoon is deliciously loud and dynamic,
Yep, but that one is the Italian, not the British.


Number 5 based on....?
Watching and comparing flying displays of the top 5 European teams in the last two years.


Oh so your personal opinion then!
I thought you had a some sort of official list.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Go4Long on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 9:24 pm

sithrity wrote:
Go4Long wrote:A decade is a decade :P


This wasn't a decade ago though. :grin:


Was it here for a show though or just stopping in? We get the germans A400M's into Calgary for normal transit stops, and some of your guys' grey tubes out of Brize stop in here as well (but we have some training activities with the UK's Army in Alberta)
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby sithrity on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 10:06 pm

Go4Long wrote:
Was it here for a show though or just stopping in? We get the germans A400M's into Calgary for normal transit stops, and some of your guys' grey tubes out of Brize stop in here as well (but we have some training activities with the UK's Army in Alberta)


That clip wasn't the one I watched the other day, this is the clip. Starts at 4:41, sorry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NP1dyfqngtk&t=303s
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby capercaillie on Wed 07 Feb 2018, 8:43 am

aviodromefriend wrote:
FullCarrot wrote:knowing that people around the globe get to enjoy the best of UK Aviation because lets face it, the Reds are the best display team in the world,
Number 5 in Europe, nowadays not even close to Patrula Aguilla.


:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: Well that cheered me up.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby CJS on Wed 07 Feb 2018, 11:08 am

aviodromefriend wrote:
FullCarrot wrote:knowing that people around the globe get to enjoy the best of UK Aviation because lets face it, the Reds are the best display team in the world,
Number 5 in Europe, nowadays not even close to Patrula Aguilla. Don't start comparing them with, let's say, the Black Eagles.
FullCarrot wrote:the Typhoon is deliciously loud and dynamic,
Yep, but that one is the Italian, not the British.


He he...oh, wait, you've not used any kind of irony emoji.. Oh dear :facepalm:

As for the Typhoon, seriously? The RAF Typhoon is as deliciously loud (obviously, that can hardly change from one nation's to the next) and dynamic as any other. In my most humble of opinions at any rate.

We're saturated with the RAFAT year on year, I get that. But if you actually bother to watch their display I think you'll find it's really rather good.

FullCarrot wrote:Would be so much easier to support overseas shows if the government wasn't butchering the Armed Forces and that will continue for a long time to come...

To say though that we just expect and take for granted the participation of any country other than our own is wildly inaccurate, I nearly peed my pants when the Ukrainian SU-27s confirmed last year but they also came as a reminder that the glory days of IAT/RIAT are slowly fading, we are less likely to see these rare items the more we snub the invitations to go abroad, but as I said the government is making damn sure that we are incapable of doing it. Look at the Tornado, cant even get a Tonka to display on home soil and in its final throws of RAF life. Shameful.


But there is no Tornado display - it's not that anyone 'can't even get a Tonnka to display on home soil' (not of course that anyone has said it won't be this year to the best of my knowledge) but that we don't have a Tornado display. The only nation that does is Italy. The government are hardly likely to take in to account airshow capability when deciding on budgets are they? Especially not for an asset they are not exactly likely to be exporting any time soon. I'd have thought if anything there might be more chance of an A400m display from the RAF being developed in the future. But remember, an airforce does not exist to satisfy airshow organisers, however nice that would be.

The Reds and the BBMF are an exception to this I would say, as the RAFAT are flying the flag for the UK as a whole to a certain extent, and the BBMF exist for extremely important historical reasons.

Just my tuppence worth, and I realise it's nowt to do with RIAT. :smile:
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Wissam24 on Wed 07 Feb 2018, 11:28 am

capercaillie wrote:
aviodromefriend wrote:
FullCarrot wrote:knowing that people around the globe get to enjoy the best of UK Aviation because lets face it, the Reds are the best display team in the world,
Number 5 in Europe, nowadays not even close to Patrula Aguilla.


:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: Well that cheered me up.


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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby The Baron on Wed 07 Feb 2018, 1:06 pm

Wissam24 wrote:
capercaillie wrote:
aviodromefriend wrote:
FullCarrot wrote:knowing that people around the globe get to enjoy the best of UK Aviation because lets face it, the Reds are the best display team in the world,
Number 5 in Europe, nowadays not even close to Patrula Aguilla.


:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: Well that cheered me up.


Familiarity not only breeds contempt, it seems, but an impulse to spout nonsense too.


Nonsense in your opinion Sam.
The Red Arrows are good. Very good in fact but they lack the flair, particularly in the commentary that the French and Italians have.
The Swiss are simply in their own league.
So, in my opinion, the Red Arrows are the fourth best team in Europe.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby capercaillie on Wed 07 Feb 2018, 1:43 pm

As Sam has said, familiarity and all that......

Forget the commentary, that has nothing to do with the flying, and many commentators of various teams have the habit of being able to bore the pants off us.

Tell me what part of the Swiss display is breathtakingly wow. They're very good, very smooth, immaculate formations, but that's it.

The French again, great timing, look great with superb use of smoke, very photogenic but still lack the wow manoeuvres.

The Italians, yes they do have those moments in the display when they are very different, five/four splits and rejoins in unorthodox ways, the bomburst over the solo followed by the nine ship multi direction crossover, the use of the mad solo jet with crazy flight and lomcevaks, all unique when they started up. Still don't know how the M345 will work in the team though.

What other team has those wow moments like the Reds superb Gypo break or carousel turns? I wish they would still end with the visually stunning parasol break to be honest, and put the vixen break in earlier, worked so much better. The Reds do try and link in more new formations and manoeuvres each year than any of the other big teams as well, the Italians have hardly changed anything since having the MB339s apart from the first split since the Ramstein tragedy. And of course they can change display from high to medium to flat display during display at a moment's call.

I think too many are a little blasé about what they see most often. :question:

I won't insult the discussion of the best European teams by bringing in the Spanish.
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Re: RIAT 2018 discussion

Postby Airshowhammer on Wed 07 Feb 2018, 2:12 pm

I remember when the Spanish were performing as the first act in 2015 and the Belgian F16 was waiting to take off and i couldn’t help but think ‘hurry up and land’.
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