Sitting centre of the crowd line

Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby jalfrezi on Tue 25 Jul 2017, 9:40 am

Year on year RIAT feels more like a theme park crossed with a trade show - a sort of Farnborough 'lite', though at least Farnborough keep the chalets back from the crowd line.
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jalfrezi
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Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby speedbird2639 on Tue 25 Jul 2017, 9:46 am

jalfrezi wrote:Year on year RIAT feels more like a theme park crossed with a trade show - a sort of Farnborough 'lite', though at least Farnborough keep the chalets back from the crowd line.


:clap: Thank you! :win:
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speedbird2639

Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby Ouragan on Tue 25 Jul 2017, 10:26 am

The dead space behind the FRIAT grandstand could be used to place one of the 'service stations' in.
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Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby Dan213 on Wed 26 Jul 2017, 4:32 pm

speedbird2639 wrote:
there is always plenty of space in the area behind the FRIAT grandstand and in front of the Crew chalet and Breitling enclosure. It must be the area of one football pitch, if not two, and over the weekend I never saw more than a handful of people in there.


And that is part of my point. By having the 'pay extra' facilities right on the rope you finish up with huge areas of 'dead' space which isn't used as it has an obstructed view. By moving the chalets etc back at least as far as the Northern edge of the static line you remove this dead areas, increasing the amount of space available for Joe Public thereby reducing the density people in the lawn areas.

The fact that RIAT has a big piece on their website trumpting how the event can be used for 'networking' really does highlight how they have completely lost sight of their original purpose and they are now effectively running it for the benefit of themselves and their clique of friends from the Worlds air forces. How much longer before they just drop the charade and make it a 'trade show' open to Chiefs of Staff and their minions and the great unwashed can just watch the stream on Planes tv.


Hardly... Clearly you have taken a stance that RIAT are out to destroy their show.

Quite evidently, if you visit, the corporate section of the website, you are going to find the benefits of that side of the show listed. Also, as much as some people don't like it, networking between chiefs of staff etc is not only important for multi-national cooperation, but as has been seen before, new air arms have sent a representative one year, and the next year they turn up with an aircraft.

This is 2017 not 1965, and the networking side to the event is key. If you want just an airshow, then go to one of the various smaller shows around the UK that are just that. You're not going to get the wide variety and caliber of aircraft that RIAT brings with it, but if that's what you enjoy...

If you're going to make your point about not liking how RIAT is run etc, then please do it constructively, then it might actually come across as a serious argument as opposed to a rant...
Dan213

Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby jalfrezi on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 9:00 am

The majority of the networking occurs on the Friday, and as the term networking generally implies communicating with others then that sort of suggests that they're not really there to watch the show.

So why do those hospitality chalets need to be on the crowdline, they don't so that at Farnborough so why RIAT? Just move them back from the crowdline to free up space for the great unwashed - it's not rocket science.
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Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby The Baron on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 9:39 am

With the exception of the grandstands and the area directly in front of the control tower there are no pavilions on the crowd line. Pimms enclosure, Aircrew hospitality, Breitling, service stations etc are all beside the taxiway. Whilst you could argue the hospitality suites don't need to be along the front is it really such a hardship. It's, what, a quarter of a mile, Max? Out of a nearly two mile flight line it's not much, I don't think.
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The Baron

Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby Dan213 on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 9:49 am

[quote="jalfrezi"]The majority of the networking occurs on the Friday, and as the term networking generally implies communicating with others then that sort of suggests that they're not really there to watch the show.

So why do those hospitality chalets need to be on the crowdline, they don't so that at Farnborough so why RIAT? Just move them back from the crowdline to free up space for the great unwashed - it's not rocket science.[/quote]

Firstly I should imagine the networking takes place all weekend. Secondly, I highly doubt there's a set ' let's network for 8 hours and nothing else' the likelihood is that people talk whilst watching the display, they aren't robots...

As said previously, you have another 1.75 miles of crowdline to sit on. Or is that not enough for you?
Last edited by Dan213 on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Dan213

Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby Screechy on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 9:49 am

It's just sour grapes. FRIAT users pay for the privilege to sit where they sit. There is a public grandstand that is available just along from there that you can sit in if wanted. If you are prepared to arrive early enough then places are available. The crowd line is plenty long enough. I got a spot at the front on Sunday after leaving the FRIAT enclosure and heading East. Some people just want to bitch and moan. Meh!

Corperate facilities that sit at the front have been paid for, they aren't there for free, they are helping to fund the show you are attending. Without FRIAT, BREITLING, BAE etc there wouldn't be much to fund the show with.
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Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 10:12 am

Screechy wrote:There is a public grandstand that is available just along from there that you can sit in if wanted. If you are prepared to arrive early enough then places are available.

That would be the 'Viewing Village' grandstand, I presume.
If so -- not exactly free, nor is it open access....and unless I'm mistaken it was sold-out again this year ( so no places available on the day )
Or was there another grandstand which nobody was aware of & wasn't shown on the showground map ?
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Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby Screechy on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 10:26 am

Brevet Cable wrote:
Screechy wrote:There is a public grandstand that is available just along from there that you can sit in if wanted. If you are prepared to arrive early enough then places are available.

That would be the 'Viewing Village' grandstand, I presume.
If so -- not exactly free, nor is it open access....and unless I'm mistaken it was sold-out again this year ( so no places available on the day )
Or was there another grandstand which nobody was aware of & wasn't shown on the showground map ?


Didn't say it was free or that it wasn't full but if you fail to plan...

There arrive early enough comment was in regards to spaces on the front of the crowd line, no different to any big airshow.
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Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby jalfrezi on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 11:04 am

Fund the show? Most of the display element doesn't need funding as military assets are FOC with a few exceptions, it's just a massive money spinner and they're trying the same with Scampton but without the content.
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jalfrezi
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Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby Screechy on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 11:17 am

jalfrezi wrote:Fund the show? Most of the display element doesn't need funding as military assets are FOC with a few exceptions, it's just a massive money spinner and they're trying the same with Scampton but without the content.


Outside of the nuts and bolts aircraft there is still a lot to pay for. Fuel, accommodation, toilet facilities, policing etc don't come cheap. Sure it's a money making tool as well but it's raising funds for charity.
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Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby jalfrezi on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 11:29 am

Screechy wrote:
jalfrezi wrote:Fund the show? Most of the display element doesn't need funding as military assets are FOC with a few exceptions, it's just a massive money spinner and they're trying the same with Scampton but without the content.


Outside of the nuts and bolts aircraft there is still a lot to pay for. Fuel, accommodation, toilet facilities, policing etc don't come cheap. Sure it's a money making tool as well but it's raising funds for charity.


Of course there are other costs, are you saying the normal airshow attendance wouldn't cover that and then some? The corporate money doesn't subsidise the basic ticket price in any way, it's still not a cheap ticket (though I wouldn't argue it's not value for money).

If for example we look at the programme, what was it £12 this year? When I last purchased one a few years back it was full of adverts and advertorials with little actual content on cheap paper. If this years was anything like that then you pay to buy the programme, the companies pay to advertise, but with little actual content it must be a real money spinner for them.
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jalfrezi
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Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby Screechy on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 11:48 am

Lets face it everything they do is geared to earning money for charity. Still there are expenses that need paying. I'm sure they cover themselves many times over to allow for any disastrous eventualities too like the cancelation in 2008. I wouldn't go within a million miles of the programme if I didn't get it with my FRIAT package. If i want adverts I can watch TV
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Screechy

Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby jalfrezi on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 12:01 pm

Screechy wrote:Lets face it everything they do is geared to earning money for charity. Still there are expenses that need paying. I'm sure they cover themselves many times over to allow for any disastrous eventualities too like the cancelation in 2008. I wouldn't go within a million miles of the programme if I didn't get it with my FRIAT package. If i want adverts I can watch TV


RAFCTE are not a charity, they're a business with a turnover this year of £9.8m, of which they gave £1m to the actual RAFCT charity.
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Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby The Baron on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 12:24 pm

So your beef isn't just about not being able to sit crowd centre (which you can do if you're early enough), but about the whole organisation?
I agree about the programme cost - it's daylight robbery, and I refuse to pay £12.
As for networking/business bods/ chiefs of staff etc I'm sure that the deals and friendships made at RIAT go a long way into securing future participation but also into securing new contracts for aircraft/support packages etc which will keep me in a job as well as many others.
I can put up with losing a small piece of crowdline for that.
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Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby Dan213 on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 12:52 pm

jalfrezi wrote:Fund the show? Most of the display element doesn't need funding as military assets are FOC with a few exceptions, it's just a massive money spinner and they're trying the same with Scampton but without the content.



Suppose all the fuel, security staff, hire of the site equipment etc costs next to nothing does it?

Either you don't understand the infrastructure costs involved with a large event, or you're too busy trying to put down the organisation to care
Dan213

Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby jalfrezi on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 1:26 pm

Dan213 wrote:
jalfrezi wrote:Fund the show? Most of the display element doesn't need funding as military assets are FOC with a few exceptions, it's just a massive money spinner and they're trying the same with Scampton but without the content.



Suppose all the fuel, security staff, hire of the site equipment etc costs next to nothing does it?

Either you don't understand the infrastructure costs involved with a large event, or you're too busy trying to put down the organisation to care


I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong) it was in the region of £2.6m in costs for infrastructure.

154,000 people over three days, let's say 54,000 were children, and let's say the average ticket price per day is £30, I believe that covers the infrastructure costs. Then you've got merchandise sales, pitches, corporate donations, supplementary tickets, programme profits, etc, etc.

I just find people's arguments that the show wouldn't go ahead without corporate subsidy a load of rubbish, I accept that the networking is helpful for forging relationships between RAFCTE and the air arms, but all of the villages, pavilions, zones, etc are not essential for the future of RIAT, as I said before it feels like it's becoming more of a theme park/trade show every year.
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Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby Dan213 on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 1:44 pm

jalfrezi wrote:
Dan213 wrote:
jalfrezi wrote:Fund the show? Most of the display element doesn't need funding as military assets are FOC with a few exceptions, it's just a massive money spinner and they're trying the same with Scampton but without the content.



Suppose all the fuel, security staff, hire of the site equipment etc costs next to nothing does it?

Either you don't understand the infrastructure costs involved with a large event, or you're too busy trying to put down the organisation to care


I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong) it was in the region of £2.6m in costs for infrastructure.

154,000 people over three days, let's say 54,000 were children, and let's say the average ticket price per day is £30, I believe that covers the infrastructure costs. Then you've got merchandise sales, pitches, corporate donations, supplementary tickets, programme profits, etc, etc.

I just find people's arguments that the show wouldn't go ahead without corporate subsidy a load of rubbish, I accept that the networking is helpful for forging relationships between RAFCTE and the air arms, but all of the villages, pavilions, zones, etc are not essential for the future of RIAT, as I said before it feels like it's becoming more of a theme park/trade show every year.


Do you really think a show that was soley and airshow would survive in this day and age? As I've said before, it's 2017, not 1965...
Dan213

Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby jalfrezi on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 1:59 pm

Dan213 wrote:Do you really think a show that was soley and airshow would survive in this day and age? As I've said before, it's 2017, not 1965...


Yes, it may not make as much money but I'm sure it would survive, other airshows manage though the CAA may change that.

If you really are 21 years old then maybe you'll be in a position to look back in 10-20 years to see how things have changed for the worse, rather than being part of the RIAT 'happy clappers' club, maybe we can get you a badge and balloon. :pinkwafer:
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Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby Dan213 on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 2:08 pm

jalfrezi wrote:
Dan213 wrote:Do you really think a show that was soley and airshow would survive in this day and age? As I've said before, it's 2017, not 1965...


Yes, it may not make as much money but I'm sure it would survive, other airshows manage though the CAA may change that.

If you really are 21 years old then maybe you'll be in a position to look back in 10-20 years to see how things have changed for the worse, rather than being part of the RIAT 'happy clappers' club, maybe we can get you a badge and balloon. :pinkwafer:


Thanks for being observant and looking up my age on my profile but it is totally irrelevant in this case. I find it a shame that some members here feel the need to play the age card.

I'm hardly being a 'RIAT happy clapper' by pointing out that the show of 20-30 years ago would not appeal to a modern day public.
Dan213

Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby jalfrezi on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 2:24 pm

Dan213 wrote:
Thanks for being observant and looking up my age on my profile but it is totally irrelevant in this case. I find it a shame that some members here feel the need to play the age card.

I'm hardly being a 'RIAT happy clapper' by pointing out that the show of 20-30 years ago would not appeal to a modern day public.


I'm not sure why it's irrelevant - how many times have you been to RIAT as an adult, and what changes have you seen, where do you think those changes will take us to 10 years from now - that was my point. With age comes experience, I'm not criticising you for your age or playing the 'age card', I was merely pointing out that your level of RIAT experience is not the same as myself or others, I was 21 as well many years ago and I know a lot more now than I did then.

The happy clapper comment was based on your previous RIAT posts strongly in defence of RIAT, was there anything you weren't happy with or was it 100% perfect for you? How do you know what the modern day public want, it doesn't consist entirely of 20 somethings so your comment is expressed entirely from your perspective as a 21 year old, I'm sure there are many older than myself that hark back to the good old days when an airshow was just that, not some sort of corporate exercise of money extraction from punters that have already paid to enter, or maybe I still can't get my head around the cost of a bacon roll.......
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Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 2:38 pm

Dan213 wrote:
jalfrezi wrote:
Dan213 wrote:
jalfrezi wrote:Fund the show? Most of the display element doesn't need funding as military assets are FOC with a few exceptions, it's just a massive money spinner and they're trying the same with Scampton but without the content.



Suppose all the fuel, security staff, hire of the site equipment etc costs next to nothing does it?

Either you don't understand the infrastructure costs involved with a large event, or you're too busy trying to put down the organisation to care


I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong) it was in the region of £2.6m in costs for infrastructure.

154,000 people over three days, let's say 54,000 were children, and let's say the average ticket price per day is £30, I believe that covers the infrastructure costs. Then you've got merchandise sales, pitches, corporate donations, supplementary tickets, programme profits, etc, etc.

I just find people's arguments that the show wouldn't go ahead without corporate subsidy a load of rubbish, I accept that the networking is helpful for forging relationships between RAFCTE and the air arms, but all of the villages, pavilions, zones, etc are not essential for the future of RIAT, as I said before it feels like it's becoming more of a theme park/trade show every year.


Do you really think a show that was soley and airshow would survive in this day and age? As I've said before, it's 2017, not 1965...


Yes. Yes it would. Old Warden's never been busier, and crowds are good at most events. RIAT took its eye of the ball after Paul Bowen's death. The Alexandra Burke farrago should have hearalded the end of this non-aviation nonsense. Modern RIAT lacks confidence in its core product, the flying display, which remains in spite of everything, the best in Western Europe.
Dan O'Hagan

Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby Dan213 on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 3:54 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
Dan213 wrote:
jalfrezi wrote:
Dan213 wrote:
jalfrezi wrote:Fund the show? Most of the display element doesn't need funding as military assets are FOC with a few exceptions, it's just a massive money spinner and they're trying the same with Scampton but without the content.



Suppose all the fuel, security staff, hire of the site equipment etc costs next to nothing does it?

Either you don't understand the infrastructure costs involved with a large event, or you're too busy trying to put down the organisation to care


I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong) it was in the region of £2.6m in costs for infrastructure.

154,000 people over three days, let's say 54,000 were children, and let's say the average ticket price per day is £30, I believe that covers the infrastructure costs. Then you've got merchandise sales, pitches, corporate donations, supplementary tickets, programme profits, etc, etc.

I just find people's arguments that the show wouldn't go ahead without corporate subsidy a load of rubbish, I accept that the networking is helpful for forging relationships between RAFCTE and the air arms, but all of the villages, pavilions, zones, etc are not essential for the future of RIAT, as I said before it feels like it's becoming more of a theme park/trade show every year.


Do you really think a show that was soley and airshow would survive in this day and age? As I've said before, it's 2017, not 1965...


Yes. Yes it would. Old Warden's never been busier, and crowds are good at most events. RIAT took its eye of the ball after Paul Bowen's death. The Alexandra Burke farrago should have hearalded the end of this non-aviation nonsense. Modern RIAT lacks confidence in its core product, the flying display, which remains in spite of everything, the best in Western Europe.


Old Warden is on an entirely different scale though. Would be interested to know what the number of visitors are at their shows. The Alexandra Burke fiasco was something RIAT admitted was a mistake, and things have changed substantially since then.

Jalfrezi, I have been going to RIAT for the past 10 + years, so I have seen the changes that have taken place. My or your "RIAT experience" has very little to do with the type of event that appeals to the modern day public...
Dan213

Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 4:09 pm

One thing I've wondered about in recent years.....
Alexandra Burke's appearance still keeps getting dragged, yet in recent years they've had the 'Vintage Village' with the various singing ( and other ) acts which that involves, none of which evoke the same reaction -- why not ?
Brevet.. Meh !!
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