Sitting centre of the crowd line

Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby Dan213 on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 4:12 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:One thing I've wondered about in recent years.....
Alexandra Burke's appearance still keeps getting dragged, yet in recent years they've had the 'Vintage Village' with the various singing ( and other ) acts which that involves, none of which evoke the same reaction -- why not ?


Most likely due to the fact that many of the performers in the vintage village are not celebrities and don't carry the same ridiculous cost. I, for one thing, think that the vintage village is a great attraction and not unlike many you see at other air/country shows
Dan213

Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby play it cool on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 5:21 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:One thing I've wondered about in recent years.....
Alexandra Burke's appearance still keeps getting dragged, yet in recent years they've had the 'Vintage Village' with the various singing ( and other ) acts which that involves, none of which evoke the same reaction -- why not ?


Perhaps if she'd have dressed in WW2 army uniform and sung Vera Lynn (and similar vintage) songs, she'd have gotten away with it.
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Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby Gonzo230 on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 5:51 pm

How much does Shuttleworth pay for accommodation for its volunteers? RIAT has over 2500 of them, many of them stay for 5, 6, 7 or more nights.

How much does Shuttleworth pay to feed its volunteers? 2500 x 3 meals x Y days is a lot of food.

That's before we get onto flight/ground crew of visiting aircraft.

Not sure one can compare RIAT to an Old Warden display.
Gonzo230

Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby jalfrezi on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 7:21 pm

Gonzo230 wrote:How much does Shuttleworth pay for accommodation for its volunteers? RIAT has over 2500 of them, many of them stay for 5, 6, 7 or more nights.

How much does Shuttleworth pay to feed its volunteers? 2500 x 3 meals x Y days is a lot of food.

That's before we get onto flight/ground crew of visiting aircraft.

Not sure one can compare RIAT to an Old Warden display.


I take it that 2,500 figure includes the air cadets? I'm struggling to get my head round why they need so many?

To feed 2,500 would come in well under £50k for 5 days, so pretty small in the scheme of things, accommodation is in accommodation blocks, wooden huts, or the campsite (bring your own tent), I don't know whether the huts are hired for the event or not though.

I don't know about the flight/ground crew but I'd be surprised if they stayed off base, but happy to be proved wrong.

Anyway, foreign airshows manage just fine without hospitality chalets on the crowdline or £40 entry tickets, how do they manage it? BTW 30 euros for a Sanicole ticket, looks a pretty decent line up to me.....
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Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby Dan213 on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 7:52 pm

jalfrezi wrote:
Gonzo230 wrote:How much does Shuttleworth pay for accommodation for its volunteers? RIAT has over 2500 of them, many of them stay for 5, 6, 7 or more nights.

How much does Shuttleworth pay to feed its volunteers? 2500 x 3 meals x Y days is a lot of food.

That's before we get onto flight/ground crew of visiting aircraft.

Not sure one can compare RIAT to an Old Warden display.


I take it that 2,500 figure includes the air cadets? I'm struggling to get my head round why they need so many?

To feed 2,500 would come in well under £50k for 5 days, so pretty small in the scheme of things, accommodation is in accommodation blocks, wooden huts, or the campsite (bring your own tent), I don't know whether the huts are hired for the event or not though.

I don't know about the flight/ground crew but I'd be surprised if they stayed off base, but happy to be proved wrong.

Anyway, foreign airshows manage just fine without hospitality chalets on the crowdline or £40 entry tickets, how do they manage it? BTW 30 euros for a Sanicole ticket, looks a pretty decent line up to me.....


Most,if not all of the flight/ground crew stay in hotels in and around the Swindon area.

RE the air cadets. RAFCTE is one of the main supporters of the air cadets. As much as it is about having volunteers there to work for the show, it is about giving cadets experience. Many of the cadets on the camp come from as far afield as Scotland and Northern Ireland so would have little chance to experience the show otherwise.

RIAT pays for all of the fuel used during the show. I'm sure you can hazard a guess as to how much that costs
Last edited by Dan213 on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 7:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby Gonzo230 on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 7:54 pm

jalfrezi,

No, not everyone stays on base.

Take a look in any of the hotels around Swindon over RIAT and see how many growbags you can spot!

Have you ever read 'Airshow' by Graham Hurley? It would be worth tracking a copy down, it explains in detail about the behind the scenes operation to put on RIAT.
Gonzo230

Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby jalfrezi on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 8:09 pm

Fair enough, I wasn't aware of the crew arrangements and said I'd be happy if proved wrong.

I still haven't been persuaded otherwise that hospitality chalets on the crowdline are a necessity, that everything is overpriced at RIAT bar the entry ticket, and that it's becoming an activity/theme park/trade event with an airshow.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree!
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Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby speedbird2639 on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 8:15 pm

Wow that escalated quickly!

Thanks to DanO and my Jalfrezi for keeping things ticking over while I was away from the computer.

No one is denying that networking can be beneficial to the show. However as pointed out earlier in the thread Farnborough also has exec chalets just not right where the majority of the airshow going public would choose to stand if the chalets were elsewhere. Its a bit of a spurious argument to say there are 2 miles of crowdline - you are not going to see much of a display or have many photo opportunities if you are in the West of the Green Zone or down the Yellow end of the Red zone.

Next year take a walk up to the crowd line at the Western end of Red zone and take a glance over at the people in their ties and blazers in the chalets and see how many of them are watching the show. No actually don't bother I will save you a walk - he answer is none. They are all stood chatting with their mates. So I'll ask you again why does the provision for people who have no intention of watching the show have to be crowd centre?
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Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby speedbird2639 on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 8:18 pm

jalfrezi wrote:I still haven't been persuaded otherwise that hospitality chalets on the crowdline are a necessity, that everything is overpriced at RIAT bar the entry ticket, and that it's becoming an activity/theme park/trade event with an airshow.


I agree - each year its gradually edging towards what an airshow would look like if Alton Towers promoted it - all we need is a 'cast member' in a cartoon costume welcoming us to the show and we're there.
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Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby jalfrezi on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 8:25 pm

speedbird2639 wrote:
jalfrezi wrote:I still haven't been persuaded otherwise that hospitality chalets on the crowdline are a necessity, that everything is overpriced at RIAT bar the entry ticket, and that it's becoming an activity/theme park/trade event with an airshow.


I agree - each year its gradually edging towards what an airshow would look like if Alton Towers promoted it - all we need is a 'cast member' in a cartoon costume welcoming us to the show and we're there.


Don't give them ideas! :hide: :facepalm: :biggrin:
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Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby Dan213 on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 8:30 pm

speedbird2639 wrote:
jalfrezi wrote:I still haven't been persuaded otherwise that hospitality chalets on the crowdline are a necessity, that everything is overpriced at RIAT bar the entry ticket, and that it's becoming an activity/theme park/trade event with an airshow.


I agree - each year its gradually edging towards what an airshow would look like if Alton Towers promoted it - all we need is a 'cast member' in a cartoon costume welcoming us to the show and we're there.


Take it you've never been to Alton Towers then...

The vast majority of the show is aimed at those with an interest in aviation and that is clear to see. The zones such as the techno zone are aimed at getting young people involved with STEM, something that is incredibly important in the current climate, where we lack people with these skills. RIAT goes over and above being an airshow in this aspect and whilst talking to the likes of Rolls Royce or BAE may actually be boring for someone in a normal setting, being able to physically see where there work goes has a huge advantage.

My point is that RIAT is nothing like 'Alton Towers' as you say. It's quite clear that many people feel that it should just be an airshow as that's all they are interested in themselves. That's quite a self-centred viewpoint to take. In my eyes RIAT have embraced upon a fantastic opportunity to encourage younger people to consider careers in the STEM area
Last edited by Dan213 on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 8:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby Gonzo230 on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 8:32 pm

Over the 2016/17 FY, RIAT 2016 generated £9.1m income for RAFCTE, out of a total income of £9.8m.

Expenditure was just over £9m, allowing a £1m donation to RAFCT.

Without the support of Boeing, BAE Systems, Raytheon etc and those hospitality suites, I'm not sure income would be greater than expenditure.
Gonzo230

Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby jalfrezi on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 8:40 pm

Gonzo230 wrote:Over the 2016/17 FY, RIAT 2016 generated £9.1m income for RAFCTE, out of a total income of £9.8m.

Expenditure was just over £9m, allowing a £1m donation to RAFCT.

Without the support of Boeing, BAE Systems, Raytheon etc and those hospitality suites, I'm not sure income would be greater than expenditure.


No one is saying the hospitality chalets should be scrapped, just that it isn't necessary for them to be show centre at the front. Farnborough and MAKS don't do that, so why RIAT? Farnborough and MAKS have there own separate issues but that would be for other threads....
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Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby Gonzo230 on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 8:45 pm

jalfrezi wrote:
No one is saying the hospitality chalets should be scrapped, just that it isn't necessary for them to be show centre at the front. Farnborough and MAKS don't do that, so why RIAT? Farnborough and MAKS have there own separate issues but that would be for other threads....


I think MAKS, Farnborough, Paris etc are quite different. It's like comparing the Goodwood Revival or Festival of Speed to the Geneva Motor Show.

Someone has determined that Boeing et al wouldn't pay anything, or not enough, if they weren't in that location.

If RAFCTE could squeeze the budget more by moving them, I'm sure they would do so.
Gonzo230

Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby jalfrezi on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 8:56 pm

Gonzo230 wrote:
jalfrezi wrote:
No one is saying the hospitality chalets should be scrapped, just that it isn't necessary for them to be show centre at the front. Farnborough and MAKS don't do that, so why RIAT? Farnborough and MAKS have there own separate issues but that would be for other threads....


I think MAKS, Farnborough, Paris etc are quite different. It's like comparing the Goodwood Revival or Festival of Speed to the Geneva Motor Show.

Someone has determined that Boeing et al wouldn't pay anything, or not enough, if they weren't in that location.

If RAFCTE could squeeze the budget more by moving them, I'm sure they would do so.


Hmm, so they're basically being told what to do by the sponsors then - that's a bad way to run an airshow because if they pull out for whatever reason then that leaves a gaping hole in your budget, an airshow SHOULD be self sufficient without having large corporate sponsors, if they're not then you'll potentially run into problems in the future.

Of course this is based on your assumption that they are large contributors to RAFCTE, I can't find any public figures on sponsorship/contributions in RAFCTE's business report, if they were over a certain amount would they not be shown?
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Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 9:04 pm

Gonzo230 wrote:No, not everyone stays on base.
Take a look in any of the hotels around Swindon over RIAT and see how many growbags you can spot!

There's a possibility that some slum it more than that......wandering out of Kempsford campsite on the Saturday morning I noticed at least one van sign-written as being a 'Red Arrows Support Vehicle' parked at the bottom end of the campsite, and I'm pretty sure it/they were still there when I left on the Sunday evening ( presumably legit as you'd have to be a real sad-case to walt as part of the RAFAT support team )
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Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby Tomahawk on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 9:10 pm

speedbird2639 wrote:Next year take a walk up to the crowd line at the Western end of Red zone and take a glance over at the people in their ties and blazers in the chalets and see how many of them are watching the show. No actually don't bother I will save you a walk - he answer is none. They are all stood chatting with their mates. So I'll ask you again why does the provision for people who have no intention of watching the show have to be crowd centre?


Will you stop repeating that utter bollocks that no-one in the chalets watches the show. It's not true.
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Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby speedbird2639 on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 9:10 pm

you'd have to be a real sad-case to walt as part of the RAFAT support team


Takes all sorts Brevet - wouldn't surprise me. With Walt catching such an internet sport these days maybe they've had to move on to more low level under the radar walting.

I was having a chuckle at some of the FKW's around the show ground.
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Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 9:16 pm

speedbird2639 wrote:
jalfrezi wrote:I still haven't been persuaded otherwise that hospitality chalets on the crowdline are a necessity, that everything is overpriced at RIAT bar the entry ticket, and that it's becoming an activity/theme park/trade event with an airshow.

I agree - each year its gradually edging towards what an airshow would look like if Alton Towers promoted it - all we need is a 'cast member' in a cartoon costume welcoming us to the show and we're there.

Remember, though, that the good old 'Battle of Britain'/'RAF at Home' airshows used to feature a fair bit of non-aviation activities....be that the motorcycle display teams, the MT displays/parades, RAFR marching/rifle drill displays, 'brain on a chain' demos/displays, not to mention the presence of various tat stalls ( even if a higher percentage of them were aviation-related )
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Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby Ouragan on Fri 28 Jul 2017, 12:10 pm

The 'At Home' days were first and foremost to promote the RAF and show the taxpayers what they were getting for their money, of course.

There is an increasingly a corporate feel to RIAT. The Raytheon static park, with its tables and chairs and strategically located pot plants (Really? Why?), shows this. It is a trade show exhibition through and through, and one wonders why the company feels the need to present its products in that way at an event where 90% of the people walking past are not in the trade. I will be charitable and say it shows a lack of imagination.

The other thing that grates is the way some companies have their aircraft in private areas. This is something that RIAT really should have refused the first time it was suggested, as it does show a complete lack of indifference to the ticket-buying public from some of the corporate sponsors, and indeed only reinforces the understandable anti-corporate feeling that results. It also reinforces that idea -as jalfrezi suggests- that RIAT happily allow the sponsors to have their way, leading to the tail wagging the dog rather than the other way around; the companies will only have to hint at pulling out, and RIAT will roll over to have their tummy scratched. It does lead to the presence of what seems to be a sizeable corporate complex right at the centre of the showground and yes, it does seem to take ages to walk past these clinically white structures. By the time you've thrown in the other enclosures it can make any average punter feel that they are there on sufferance only.

Some here have mentioned the far east and the far west of the crowdline. I have noticed that the eastern end has become a lot more popular since display aircraft have been using the area at the south of the runway at the end. I have always gravitated there, as I particularly like landing shots, and it is more and more busy every year. On Friday this year it was three deep in some places. The far west is much quieter, and for those who suggest going there to watch the display, I assume you have never done so yourself. Unless there is a sudden wind change and everything has to take off and land at that end, you can sit there and count :tumbleweed: for the rest of the day or watch the far off displays with your binoculars.

RIAT is a business. It exists to make money for the RAFCTE. That it only covenants approximately 10% of its income to the charity is a good reason why you have to fork out £12 for a programme or a fiver for a bacon and egg roll. Or a couple of hundred quid for a pavilion seat. It also means that for every £1 that goes to charity the organisation spends about another £9, which is a pi$$-poor ratio and really ought to make the management team sit down and wonder quite where a lot of it goes.

More generally, and as Dan213 states in his somewhat forthright and blunt way*, of course airshows have changed over the last two or three decades, and I have seen more than one organiser present their event as 'MORE than just an airshow!', which I never quite understand. It would suggest a lack of confidence in their own product. Of course I see the need for supplementary displays, and here I applaud RIAT with the techno zone and their attempts to promote STEM subjects to youngsters. I even see the need for a fun fair (in the next field, perhaps :biggrin: ) as I do recognise that a lot of kids will not want to sit and watch several hours of flying non-stop, and also for the variety of traders. I do wonder, however, if any UKAR members have ever bought or know somebody who has bought a hot tub or some wooden garden furniture at an airshow :dunno: ? Perhaps it could be the subject of an episode in the next series of The Apprentice.

But all of these are, as I said, supplementary. The prime reason for going to an airshow, whether you are an enthusiast or a non-enthusiast, adult or child, is to see aircraft. I've never heard anyone say that they're going to Fairford etc because they're looking forward to browsing ethnic jewellery or trying a climbing wall or listening to that jazz group or sitting in a marquee and making a model kit. No, they're looking forward to seeing the Red Arrows or the Lancaster or a strange, exotic jet that will never be seen again as it's going out of service three months later. Somebody said that you cannot compare RIAT to Shuttleworth, but maybe Shuttleworth has a better idea of what the people that visit it on flying days want out of it; there is a distinct lack of bouncy castles at its events, but not of paying punters.

Airshow organisers, and I count RIAT among them, ought to stand up more for their industry and not think of the aircraft as a sideshow.

* Ah, the certainty of youth! I remember it well -as well as the eventual humbling by experience.
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Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby mikek on Fri 28 Jul 2017, 12:46 pm

I think the corporate stuff actually adds to the show. things like fairground rides are a step too far.

But.
The Aviation Club has a small grandstand. It doesn't look big enough to hold everyone in the Aviation Club (guessing half at most), but it is never filled up.... so you don't have to allow a grandstand seat for everyone. The corporate type people would probably perfer to be a bit nearer the 'main drag', and if they had small grandstands (or 2 tier chalets) they could be moved back a bit & actually have a better view of the displays.
Some of the best views are when an aircraft are preparing to take-off & when on the runway during take-off. For the 'ordinary punter' it would be nice to have some more crowdline available for this reason - especially near the centre - not much point up the far west!
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Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby Dan213 on Fri 28 Jul 2017, 2:29 pm

Ouragan wrote:The 'At Home' days were first and foremost to promote the RAF and show the taxpayers what they were getting for their money, of course.

There is an increasingly a corporate feel to RIAT. The Raytheon static park, with its tables and chairs and strategically located pot plants (Really? Why?), shows this. It is a trade show exhibition through and through, and one wonders why the company feels the need to present its products in that way at an event where 90% of the people walking past are not in the trade. I will be charitable and say it shows a lack of imagination.

The other thing that grates is the way some companies have their aircraft in private areas. This is something that RIAT really should have refused the first time it was suggested, as it does show a complete lack of indifference to the ticket-buying public from some of the corporate sponsors, and indeed only reinforces the understandable anti-corporate feeling that results. It also reinforces that idea -as jalfrezi suggests- that RIAT happily allow the sponsors to have their way, leading to the tail wagging the dog rather than the other way around; the companies will only have to hint at pulling out, and RIAT will roll over to have their tummy scratched. It does lead to the presence of what seems to be a sizeable corporate complex right at the centre of the showground and yes, it does seem to take ages to walk past these clinically white structures. By the time you've thrown in the other enclosures it can make any average punter feel that they are there on sufferance only.

Some here have mentioned the far east and the far west of the crowdline. I have noticed that the eastern end has become a lot more popular since display aircraft have been using the area at the south of the runway at the end. I have always gravitated there, as I particularly like landing shots, and it is more and more busy every year. On Friday this year it was three deep in some places. The far west is much quieter, and for those who suggest going there to watch the display, I assume you have never done so yourself. Unless there is a sudden wind change and everything has to take off and land at that end, you can sit there and count :tumbleweed: for the rest of the day or watch the far off displays with your binoculars.

RIAT is a business. It exists to make money for the RAFCTE. That it only covenants approximately 10% of its income to the charity is a good reason why you have to fork out £12 for a programme or a fiver for a bacon and egg roll. Or a couple of hundred quid for a pavilion seat. It also means that for every £1 that goes to charity the organisation spends about another £9, which is a pi$$-poor ratio and really ought to make the management team sit down and wonder quite where a lot of it goes.

More generally, and as Dan213 states in his somewhat forthright and blunt way*, of course airshows have changed over the last two or three decades, and I have seen more than one organiser present their event as 'MORE than just an airshow!', which I never quite understand. It would suggest a lack of confidence in their own product. Of course I see the need for supplementary displays, and here I applaud RIAT with the techno zone and their attempts to promote STEM subjects to youngsters. I even see the need for a fun fair (in the next field, perhaps :biggrin: ) as I do recognise that a lot of kids will not want to sit and watch several hours of flying non-stop, and also for the variety of traders. I do wonder, however, if any UKAR members have ever bought or know somebody who has bought a hot tub or some wooden garden furniture at an airshow :dunno: ? Perhaps it could be the subject of an episode in the next series of The Apprentice.

But all of these are, as I said, supplementary. The prime reason for going to an airshow, whether you are an enthusiast or a non-enthusiast, adult or child, is to see aircraft. I've never heard anyone say that they're going to Fairford etc because they're looking forward to browsing ethnic jewellery or trying a climbing wall or listening to that jazz group or sitting in a marquee and making a model kit. No, they're looking forward to seeing the Red Arrows or the Lancaster or a strange, exotic jet that will never be seen again as it's going out of service three months later. Somebody said that you cannot compare RIAT to Shuttleworth, but maybe Shuttleworth has a better idea of what the people that visit it on flying days want out of it; there is a distinct lack of bouncy castles at its events, but not of paying punters.

Airshow organisers, and I count RIAT among them, ought to stand up more for their industry and not think of the aircraft as a sideshow.

* Ah, the certainty of youth! I remember it well -as well as the eventual humbling by experience.


Again, feeling the need to use someone's age against them...
Dan213

Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby aviodromefriend on Fri 28 Jul 2017, 2:38 pm

jalfrezi wrote:Don't give them ideas! :hide: :facepalm: :biggrin:
Their former "artist" had one in the garbage that should have promoted the show.
Gonzo230 wrote:Someone has determined that Boeing et al wouldn't pay anything, or not enough, if they weren't in that location.
Or the people that are sent to Fairford by Boeing et al are the aircraft enthusiast that are just the happy few that made their hobby into their day job. If networking is the important thing for them, I would strongly suggest they (that is Boeing et al) demand to be moved further back from the crowdline. While networking, all those aircraft with lit burners make too much noise if you are not interested in their displays. The further back, the quiter the music from the engines, the better the networking opportunities. Of course, while being a host in such an enclosure you can offer guests to stroll towards the crowdline for a few displays (being the ones from aircraft your company is involved in). There was nowhere an issue getting into the 10 meters zone (which I again felt was far from 10 meters). By doing that, as a company you are not only exercising your own employees and fighting their overweight, but also those from your clients. Now, what are you losing with that?
Brevet Cable wrote:wandering out of Kempsford campsite on the Saturday morning I noticed at least one van sign-written as being a 'Red Arrows Support Vehicle'
Maybe it was meant as being a vehicle from Reds Arrows Supporters? In case you wondered, I was in the same hotel as the Blues, so yes, they were in a hotel. (Think it was two years ago the Reds themselves were also in that one, according to reception they were even at the same floor as me.)
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Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby PeterR on Fri 28 Jul 2017, 2:42 pm

Ouragan wrote:Airshow organisers, and I count RIAT among them, ought to stand up more for their industry and not think of the aircraft as a sideshow.

There's plenty of people in the industry who do know, believe and promote the fact the aircraft are the reason that the public attend an airshow.
However we also understand that the public aren't the only revenue stream that our events rely on. Without ancillary revenue your admission tickets would likely be double the cost.
PeterR

Re: Sitting centre of the crowd line

Postby Brevet Cable on Fri 28 Jul 2017, 3:18 pm

Ouragan wrote:The far west is much quieter, and for those who suggest going there to watch the display, I assume you have never done so yourself. Unless there is a sudden wind change and everything has to take off and land at that end, you can sit there and count :tumbleweed: for the rest of the day or watch the far off displays with your binoculars.

I do.
Can't recall whether it was this forum or the VTTS one ( possibly both ) but there are those who've seen me there and can confirm it ( Until the last couple of years - because others have got the same idea & get there first - I used to be the sole person sitting at the extreme Western end of the crowdline.
Last year I was in front of where the Ramex & others were located.
If you've been going to RIAT long enough you should recall that the far Western end used to be just as packed as the rest of the crowdline.
Your 'far off displays' comment couldn't be further from the truth ( with the exception of some of the helicopter display elements ), ditto your comment about wind direction.....one would even start to wonder if you've ever actually spent any time down that and of the crowdline.
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