Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby kianelle on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 9:36 am

Just wondered what are your thoughts on Totterdown and do you think it is bad in some way for RIAT ? I went into the show on Friday and Saturday but on Sunday I went to totterdown only because I saw what I wanted on the park on the two days and I wanted to take some photos from a different angle.First of all the rumor that the display was going to be away from the campsite did not happen most of the display was directly overhead and because of the hill was very low .I have to say it was a buzz having the fast jets that low overhead and without doubt I don't think there is a place where you can see jets that low .I support the show but with rising costs of the show and the static display not what it used to be I am getting to a point when I'm thinking I like the thought of sitting out side your tent / caravan cheep food no traffic problems and the best view in the house all for fifteen pounds a night .It must be very frustrating for RIAT trying everything in there power to provide a safe display and right under the display line is a campsite with thousands of people if ever there was a accident the campsite is very likely where the aircraft would fall .It is getting more popular and I believe another field was opened at totterdown to get more people in .Do you think with the growing popularity of the site it is undermining the work RIAT are doing to provide a safe show . I'm interested that Rhymes farm was closed but totterdown was allowed to remain open. I have to admit after Sunday seeing the display from the site and the view I had from the B2 as it passed directly over head is making me think why bother going into the show when you have this .It looks like more and more are heading for the campsite for this experience and this can't be good for the future of RIAT . Thoughts ?
kianelle

Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 9:44 am

kianelle wrote:Just wondered what are your thoughts on Totterdown and do you think it is bad in some way for RIAT ? I went into the show on Friday and Saturday but on Sunday I went to totterdown only because I saw what I wanted on the park on the two days and I wanted to take some photos from a different angle.First of all the rumor that the display was going to be away from the campsite did not happen most of the display was directly overhead and because of the hill was very low .I have to say it was a buzz having the fast jets that low overhead and without doubt I don't think there is a place where you can see jets that low .I support the show but with rising costs of the show and the static display not what it used to be a point when I'm thinking I like the thought of sitting out side your tent / caravan cheep food no traffic problems and the best view in the house all for fifteen pounds a night .It must be very frustrating for RIAT trying everything in there power to provide a safe display and right under the display line is a campsite with thousands of people if ever there was a accident the campsite is very likely where the aircraft would fall .It is getting more popular and I believe another field was opened at totterdown to get more people in .Do you think with the growing popularity of the site it is undermining the work RIAT are doing to provide a safe show . I'm interested that Rhymes farm was closed but totterdown was allowed to remain open. I have to admit after Sunday seeing the display from the site and the view I had from the B2 as it passed directly over head is making me think why bother going into the show when you have this .It looks like more and more are heading for the campsite for this experience and this can't be good for the future of RIAT . Thoughts ?


Bottom line is that moving the display line further and higher from the public means photographers have no choice but to use the campsites, as from inside too many shows (not just RIAT) are distant and remarkably sterile. I've used Totterdown once, in 2015, and came away with the only decent Vulcan topsides I managed in her 7-8 years of appearances. If this year's weather forecast had been better, I'd have been there again.

Totterdown's geography means it would not be a realistic option as an emergency landing ground, it's private land which the owners are happy to make money from, they provide decent facilities at a fair price, and it remains popular as all but the biggest moron can see that airshows have been perfectly safe for decades.

If the show doesn't offer what people want, they'll move to a location where their needs are better served. Doesn't everyone want decent photographs without a BAE Systems banner in every background?
Dan O'Hagan

Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby speedbird2639 on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 9:45 am

Given the CAA's recommendations re secondary crowds if Totterdown and the like continue to grow then you can only argue that ultimately it is threatening the existence of the show simply by being there. USAF have a planning application in for FFD which has the potential to disrupt RIAT and may require the show to be suspended/ cancelled/ moved to another venue and the presence of Totterdown will only incentivise the organisers to look for a site where there is less complexity to meet increasingly draconian regulations. So I hope Mr Totterdown is carefully saving his money as I think by opening a P&V directly under the flight line in a post Shoreham climate he has probably contributed to killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.
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Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby PanaviaTornado on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 10:04 am

I went there for the start of Saturday. Thought the place was horribly overcrowded with inconsiderate people only inches way from you in every direction, couldn't stand it. Also the aircraft do not display over you that much, that is massively exaggerated. You may get one pass from a jet, the rest is around you as they reposition, you are more centre than under the flight path, you can also see the pilots in the cockpit looking at Totterdown and trying to avoid flying over it whist turning. Rhymes was 20000000 times better, that was worth getting Northside for, not this place IMO. I left after the Tornado display, having been spoiled by Rhymes, this place doesn't come close.

I'm against most of the modern PC/Health and safety BS, but for these it is totally justifiable. I hate that Rhymes was closed, but I actually agree with it. The likeliness, whilst small, of a multiple bird strike or compressor stall/flame out on a single engine jet, say F-16, is always there. A direct plop onto the crowd campsite after loss of control flight could happen and the hundreds dead as a result we can all say good bye to UK airshows as we know them. I'm thinking of a slow pass here, it would just have fell onto the crowd at Rhymes if it happened, would have been horrendous.

This could happen at Totterdown too as anywhere Northside be it near Fairford or wherever. The problem is the concentration of people there just compounds the problem. I cannot see that place open for much longer. Rhymes was paid off (had a chat with one of the local farmers Friday), and I half think the chap who runs Totterdown knows this it imminent. He will get closed, but he needs to show just how much he can earn from his campsite, hence the packing like sardines at the site. If RIAT can match it or come close with a pay off to his proven demonstrated earnings, without all the hassle he goes through to set the campsite up, I think he will take it. Win for both sides, sort of.
PanaviaTornado

Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby kianelle on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 10:34 am

I can't see a payoff bring a options I was reading on Facebook page were someone was working it out how much it would cost to payoff the owner and it was something like a six figure number. I don't know how much rhymes farm was paid but totterdown is much bigger .
I can't see why the landowner would even consider closing with the amount of money he makes from RIAT .
kianelle

Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby speedbird2639 on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 10:36 am

RIAT should just pay some dodgy contractor to drop a 20' shipping container into each of his field entry points the week before RIAT - problem solved.
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Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby jayne_morris on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 10:51 am

RIAT sold out on saturday so the presence of the campsite is not affecting attendance of the show, sunday was not a total sell out but it was very close to it and sunday is always going to be a quieter day due to people having to work on mondays so saturday is always going to be the most popular day, there are plenty of FRIAT members that camp at totterdown and many of them spend at least one day on the campsite so they have bought and paid for a ticket but chosen not to use it so how is that bad for RIAT

there are a lot of people that stay on the campsite and do not pay to attend the the show but do they affect sales of tickets i personally don't think they do, we were at the show this year and we camped at totterdown we did two show days and two park and view days so we did support the show and as a couple spent around £200.00 on tickets i know that is not as much as some spend on their show tickets but it is a lot for us, we did spend one of the show days on the campsite and really enjoyed it
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Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby jayne_morris on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 10:56 am

speedbird2639 wrote:RIAT should just pay some dodgy contractor to drop a 20' shipping container into each of his field entry points the week before RIAT - problem solved.


and you dont think a working farm has the equipment required to move it just as quickly as it was illegally dumped there
jayne_morris

Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby PanaviaTornado on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 10:59 am

kianelle wrote:I can't see a payoff bring a options I was reading on Facebook page were someone was working it out how much it would cost to payoff the owner and it was something like a six figure number. I don't know how much rhymes farm was paid but totterdown is much bigger .
I can't see why the landowner would even consider closing with the amount of money he makes from RIAT .


I agree the payoff would be rather big and certainly he makes 6 figures each RIAT, but it would never likely match what he could make, more of a pay off + threat of more action on Totterdown. Thing is RIAT could make things a lot more difficult for Totterdown than they are doing atm...an increased threat or difficulty by RIAT combined with some sort of payoff may be the package they use, as with Rhymes. They closed Rhymes lane for fire access but also the official line is due to the Shoreham crash, mixed with a nice pay off. This pay off still would be infintely smaller than any insurance money incase hundreds end up dead after an incident. Those small signs saying 'you are here at your own risk' I assure you will be next to meaningless in a court if a big incident did happen with many dead. In fact RIAT would not be paying off much from their reserves, it is the insurance that will take most of that hit.

I do not know what will happen for sure, but I would put a bet on Totterdown not being there much longer. As they have closed everywhere else nearly Northside, it seems farcical to not tackle Totterdown which has nearly all the same same criteria as previously closed places. With the legal and insurance backing (money) RIAT could have, it could make things extremely difficult now and not worthy for Totterdown to bother with if they get some sort of agreeable compensation.
Last edited by PanaviaTornado on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby mafro987daboss on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 11:07 am

Firstly there is no correlation between ticket sales and Totterdown (or any other campsite) being open. Safety is also tangential in my view - people know what they're getting themselves in to (but that's another debate).

To put it bluntly, most people go for the planes, not out of any loyalty to RIAT itself (yes the two are obviously linked). If the showground isn't satisfying the expectations of some, I don't see why they can't just go to Totterdown. The issue should not be with Totterdown, but either with enthusiasts who aren't supporting the show directly, or with regulations preventing the flying display from providing adequate opportunities. There are so many new places open along Horcott Road anyway so people that use Totterdown will find other places to go if it gets closed. Outside viewing, whether you agree with the principle or not, is a reality.
mafro987daboss

Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby Canon on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 11:17 am

Totterdown has by far the best view of the displays, its far more relaxed and in many ways more enjoyable than going inside RIAT. It sure was nice being able to go back to my tent for shelter during that rain on Saturday.... bet you couldn't do that inside RIAT :tongue2:
Plus Totterdown allowed me to do the Sunday inside Fairford and the Monday inside P&V West, if it wasn't for Totterdown I probably wouldn't have even gone at all.
Also a lot of people from Totterdown walk into Fairford and part ways with their cash. Must be a positive for the local economy.
All in all Totterdown is an amazing place (despite the annoying flag poles that a lot of people insist on putting up for some unknown reason :mad: ).
People will always find a way to watch from outside.... I saw a bunch of people standing around one of the lakes near where Rhymes was, and the aircraft do go over top of Fairford
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Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby AARDVARK on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 11:39 am

I miss Rhymes ...
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Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby jayne_morris on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 11:53 am

how many of the UKAR staff and mods camp at totterdown?
jayne_morris

Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby speedbird2639 on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 12:23 pm

jayne_morris wrote:how many of the UKAR staff and mods camp at totterdown?


Not many if any would be my guess. They are normally on here moaning about how their hotel/ b&b has jacked the price up close to something close to a Monaco hotel would be ashamed to charge in Grand Prix week and as a result they are staying somewhere that is about an hours drive from RIAT.
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Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby Georgeconna on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 1:46 pm

Rhymes was pure class over Trotterdown. I got some nice Lanc and Vulcan, A400M shots from Trotterdown, the Large stuff was fine but it was certainly disappointing when Compered to the Rhymes View. I If go back next year it will be one day a Trotterdown and 1 day at the show plus P&V departures.

One thing for sure is you don't come away with top sides like this years B-2 pass, Mirage Duo etc passes from Trotterdown
Cheers

George

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Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby DonaldGrump on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 2:19 pm

Greed, jealousy and rampant nimbyism are the only reason people can object to Totterdown.

If anything closing it could have an adverse effect on RIAT further stretching the availability of accomodation, an alienating a fair number of RIAT supporters.
DonaldGrump

Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby Canon on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 3:03 pm

Georgeconna wrote:Rhymes was pure class over Trotterdown. I got some nice Lanc and Vulcan, A400M shots from Trotterdown, the Large stuff was fine but it was certainly disappointing when Compered to the Rhymes View. I If go back next year it will be one day a Trotterdown and 1 day at the show plus P&V departures.

One thing for sure is you don't come away with top sides like this years B-2 pass, Mirage Duo etc passes from Trotterdown


Idk what you're on about, ok the B-2 would have been undersides from up at Totterdown, but it would have been at Rhymes too.
As for not being good for smaller stuff/ not getting topsides, I'm fairly sure these are all topsides, just like most of my other photos from Totterdown:
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(All unedited, straight from the camera, and taken with either a Canon 70-300mm lens with a 1.4xTC or a Sigma 150-600mm C on a Canon 80D)
Last edited by Canon on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby boff180 on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 4:00 pm

It did appear that aircraft were avoiding direct overflight of Totterdown during repositioning (in accordance with regs) - pushing them further away from the airfield.

If that was indeed the case then Totterdown can only be bad for RIAT and must go.
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Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby boff180 on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 4:01 pm

jayne_morris wrote:how many of the UKAR staff and mods camp at totterdown?

As far as I am aware this year... none.
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Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby Canon on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 4:21 pm

.
Last edited by Canon on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby mikek on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 4:49 pm

seems to me it's the people who do Totterdown that keep mentioning how risky might be. (here & elsewhere) :dizzy:
personally, if i had an interest in attending there in the future i'd keep stuum.
Handsomest UKAR member.
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Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby TYPHOON3 on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 4:56 pm

If RIAT wasn't selling out every year and people were viewing from Totterdown instead then yes it would be.Having said that the campsite/park and view can only hold so many people so once it's full that's it.Many people rely on Totterdown for somewhere to stay and many(myself included) do at least one day in the show.I would have thought if it was going to close,it would have gone by now like Rhymes has.It seems they wanted Rhymes gone moreso as most of the displays seem to be centered over there.The campsite sold out in January and I daresay it will once again.It even has it's own Facebook page now as well as a website.I know some hate Totterdown but for the moment it's here to stay and those people who dissagree will just have to accept that fact.Some RIAT program sellers came on Sunday but I only saw one person purchase a program on my row of tents.Maybe if they were a little cheaper,they would have sold more?
TYPHOON3

Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 4:59 pm

TYPHOON3 wrote:If RIAT wasn't selling out every year and people were viewing from Totterdown instead then yes it would be.Having said that the campsite/park and view can only hold so many people so once it's full that's it.Many people rely on Totterdown for somewhere to stay and many(myself included) do at least one day in the show.I would have thought if it was going to close,it would have gone by now like Rhymes has.It seems they wanted Rhymes gone moreso as most of the displays seem to be centered over there.The campsite sold out in January and I daresay it will once again.It even has it's own Facebook page now as well as a website.I know some hate Totterdown but for the moment it's here to stay and those people who dissagree will just have to accept that fact.Some RIAT program sellers came on Sunday but I only saw one person purchase a program on my row of tents.Maybe if they were a little cheaper,they would have sold more?


If there were indeed official programme sellers at Totterdown, surely that shows DBH condoning viewing from the campsite? If they're so OK with it that they'll send employees/volunteers in to flog £12 tat, it clearly can't be too dangerous, can it?
Dan O'Hagan

Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby speedbird2639 on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 5:01 pm

Did a search today and the website seems to have been taken down. Indicator for the future possibly or just down for maintenance?
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Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby Canon on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 5:06 pm

speedbird2639 wrote:Did a search today and the website seems to have been taken down. Indicator for the future possibly or just down for maintenance?


Still up: http://www.totterdownhillcampsite.co.uk/
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