Is Totterdown bad for Riat

[TYPHOON3]

how many of the UKAR staff and mods camp at totterdown?

As far as I am aware this year... none.

Even if some staffers were camping/park and viewing from Totterdown,I doubt they would admit it through fear of being labelled freeloaders.

[speedbird2639]

Did a search today and the website seems to have been taken down. Indicator for the future possibly or just down for maintenance?

Still up: http://www.totterdownhillcampsite.co.uk/

Deffo wasn't there this morning - must have been down for maintenance.

[Dan O'Hagan]

how many of the UKAR staff and mods camp at totterdown?

As far as I am aware this year... none.

Even if some staffers were camping/park and viewing from Totterdown,I doubt they would admit it through fear of being labelled freeloaders.

Even if they did, it's no worse than those who spend the week there claiming to be "press" when nothing of the sort. And the UKAR review is always written by someone who has paid to be inside.

I'd sooner DBH clamped down on those freeloading on the airfield rather than those outside their jurisdiction.

[Canon]

Did a search today and the website seems to have been taken down. Indicator for the future possibly or just down for maintenance?

Still up: http://www.totterdownhillcampsite.co.uk/

Deffo wasn't there this morning - must have been down for maintenance.

It appears to have been updated for next year, so probably down for maintenance when you looked.

[steveb23]

Greed, jealousy and rampant nimbyism are the only reason people can object to Totterdown.

What absolute tripe!!

Totterdown is a safety risk, not just for those stood underneath it but also for the crews flying their aircraft. We all saw the Mustang having to make a forced landing in a field outside Duxford last week.

Totterdown means that aircraft have to change their course to avoid it, this isn't in dispute I noticed it, and I am sure other UKAR people did too.
It therefore has an adverse effect on the Ticket holder experience.

"Freeloader" is the right term, because I will bet a significant amount that if the show was the same price as Totterdown, everyone who goes there would be in the show. Really, lets not pretend the usual rubbish spouted about it being about the different photo shot perspective.

The Air Tattoo is a charitable institution, all of its profits go to the Charitable Trust. I hope those at Totterdown, and in fact the farmer himself make a sizeable donation, but I suspect they won't.
Sooner it closes the better.

[steveb23]

I remember at the FRIAT forum back in 2016, they were installing a Radar for the airshow weekend to monitor aircraft movements over secondary crowds(?). Does anyone know whether they did that this year too?

[mikek]

Greed, jealousy and rampant nimbyism are the only reason people can object to Totterdown.

What absolute tripe!!

Totterdown is a safety risk, not just for those stood underneath it but also for the crews flying their aircraft. We all saw the Mustang having to make a forced landing in a field outside Duxford last week.

Totterdown means that aircraft have to change their course to avoid it, this isn't in dispute I noticed it, and I am sure other UKAR people did too.
It therefore has an adverse effect on the Ticket holder experience.

"Freeloader" is the right term, because I will bet a significant amount that if the show was the same price as Totterdown, everyone who goes there would be in the show. Really, lets not pretend the usual rubbish spouted about it being about the different photo shot perspective.

The Air Tattoo is a charitable institution, all of its profits go to the Charitable Trust. I hope those at Totterdown, and in fact the farmer himself make a sizeable donation, but I suspect given the nature of people going there, they won't.
Sooner it closes the better.

i don't disagree with what you say but i guess Totterdown (farm/whatever) was there before RIAT came to Fairford. I'm sure the show is more than a minor inconvenience to the locals with the traffic and the noise. It's kinda up to them (to some extent) if they want to open a campsite. It's unfortunately 'morally' more that RIAT must accommodate them.

^^^^ just my opinion at this moment in time.
personally i would be upset if Totterdown affected the displays in any way.

[Canon]

Greed, jealousy and rampant nimbyism are the only reason people can object to Totterdown.

What absolute tripe!!

Totterdown is a safety risk, not just for those stood underneath it but also for the crews flying their aircraft. We all saw the Mustang having to make a forced landing in a field outside Duxford last week.

Totterdown means that aircraft have to change their course to avoid it, this isn't in dispute I noticed it, and I am sure other UKAR people did too.
It therefore has an adverse effect on the Ticket holder experience.

"Freeloader" is the right term, because I will bet a significant amount that if the show was the same price as Totterdown, everyone who goes there would be in the show. Really, lets not pretend the usual rubbish spouted about it being about the different photo shot perspective.

The Air Tattoo is a charitable institution, all of its profits go to the Charitable Trust. I hope those at Totterdown, and in fact the farmer himself make a sizeable donation, but I suspect given the nature of people going there, they won't.
Sooner it closes the better.

Seeing as you mention the Mustang incident at Duxford, it was on its landing approach, Totterdown is nowhere near the landing approach for Fairford, if anything Kempsford is
Also if you watch videos from in the cockpits of the display aircraft you will see there are lots of empty fields in the surrounding area, where the pilot could ditch the aircraft if he needed to.
Maybe someone is just envious of the photo opportunities and the experiences that are presented at Totterdown instead of inside Fairford?
Totterdown is good for RIAT, it provides accomodation and allows many people, who probably would not otherwise go to the show, to attend (possibly on multiple days).
RIAT sells out year on year, its not like Totterdown is stealing all of their customers.....

[DonaldGrump]

Greed, jealousy and rampant nimbyism are the only reason people can object to Totterdown.

What absolute tripe!!

Totterdown is a safety risk, not just for those stood underneath it but also for the crews flying their aircraft. We all saw the Mustang having to make a forced landing in a field outside Duxford last week.

Totterdown means that aircraft have to change their course to avoid it, this isn't in dispute I noticed it, and I am sure other UKAR people did too.
It therefore has an adverse effect on the Ticket holder experience.

"Freeloader" is the right term, because I will bet a significant amount that if the show was the same price as Totterdown, everyone who goes there would be in the show. Really, lets not pretend the usual rubbish spouted about it being about the different photo shot perspective.

The Air Tattoo is a charitable institution, all of its profits go to the Charitable Trust. I hope those at Totterdown, and in fact the farmer himself make a sizeable donation, but I suspect given the nature of people going there, they won't.
Sooner it closes the better.

It may be less safe than those on the airfield. People on Totterdown are in more danger on their journey home than they are on that campsite. Nothing other than a helicopter would find a safe place to land anywhere near Totterdown.

As others have said the ticket holder experience is not diminished by Totterdown it is diminished by a ridiculous post Shoreham reaction that if repeated in any other walk of life would be considered draconian at best.

As regards to your freeloader comments and indeed your judgemental and ill educated speculation as to "what kind of person" goes there suggest you are a pompous individual.

As for whether the farmer makes a contribution to the charity, I have no idea. Should he do so? Well if I were fortunate enough to be sat on a goldmine then I would certainly do so. However no more than every other campsite,pub, restaurant, hotel in the area that have a sizeable chunk generated by RIAT.

Not sure about the photography myself as i dont do it. I just go to to enjoy the aircraft, and Totterdown offers a different perspective that I enjoy as well as the showside one.

Anyway do feel free to come up to Totterdown next year and I will gladly introduce you to lots of people whom you can judge.

[steveb23]

Seeing as you mention the Mustang incident at Duxford, it was on its landing approach, Totterdown is nowhere near the landing approach for Fairford, if anything Kempsford is

Really, because all accidents happen on approach? Remember Shoreham?

Maybe someone is just envious of the photo opportunities and the experiences that are presented at Totterdown instead of inside Fairford?

Wrong, not even a photographer.

[steveb23]

Anyway do feel free to come up to Totterdown next year and I will gladly introduce you to lots of people whom you can judge.

Sure, I will bring a charity bucket!

Seriously though in these times the worry for me is that RIAT is under an existential threat. If the CAA / MAA play hard ball with the current climate the presence of Totterdown could either serious curtail what RIAT can do, or even worse force it to have to close down completely at Fairford. That should be a worry for everyone!

As unlikely as it is if the worst happened there it really could be the end for Airshows in the UK as we know it.

[Canon]

Seeing as you mention the Mustang incident at Duxford, it was on its landing approach, Totterdown is nowhere near the landing approach for Fairford, if anything Kempsford is

Really, because all accidents happen on approach? Remember Shoreham?

You mentioned the Mustang incident, so I corrected you with regards to the Mustang incident
Also we are all aware of the risks involved, but for me the experience is worth the risk. I'm fed up of being told what I can and can't do due to danger, its my life let me live it how I chose to. If I chose to do something dangerous then so be it, its my choice, this is what rule makers need to learn and understand.

[Canon]

Maybe someone is just envious of the photo opportunities and the experiences that are presented at Totterdown instead of inside Fairford?

Wrong, not even a photographer.

You don't have to be a photographer to enjoy the experience (hence why I mentioned the experience of it as well as the photography aspect), the sight and sound is much better than from inside Fairford

[mikek]

Anyway do feel free to come up to Totterdown next year and I will gladly introduce you to lots of people whom you can judge.

Sure, I will bring a charity bucket!

Seriously though in these times the worry for me is that RIAT is under an existential threat. If the CAA / MAA play hard ball with the current climate the presence of Totterdown could either serious curtail what RIAT can do, or even worse force it to have to close down completely at Fairford. That should be a worry for everyone!

i think everyone is worrying unnecessarily. They've made their post-Shoreham rule changes. Nothing too untoward has happened this year. My guess is that until something happens, things will be as this year for the foreseeable.

[TYPHOON3]

Totterdown is good for RIAT and RIAT is good for Totterdown.

[ukaskew]

Bottom line is that moving the display line further and higher from the public means photographers have no choice but to use the campsites

Is that not that sense of entitlement creeping in again (that was sadly so evident last weekend and manifested itself in many embarrassing and selfish ways)? Airshows are not put on for photographers.

My main hobby is Motorsport photography, the restrictions that have crept in during the past 5-10 years have been immense, my local circuit has 50% more fencing than it did 10 years ago. It is what it is though, we still pay our entry fee and make the most of it, most circuits are struggling as it is.

A crop sensor and 400mm will still help a competent photographer achieve stunning results on the crowd line at RIAT, a few talented guys I follow on Flickr are testament to that. Sure it may not be like 'the good old days', but few things are now. Camera tech in the past 10 years has probably more than made up for the distance things have been pushed back at airshows for a start.

I'm a school teacher and some of the behaviour displayed by grown men with big lenses would honestly not be out of place in the playground, in fact I think I'd give the vast majority of kids I teach more credit than that.

[DonaldGrump]

Anyway do feel free to come up to Totterdown next year and I will gladly introduce you to lots of people whom you can judge.

Sure, I will bring a charity bucket!

Seriously though in these times the worry for me is that RIAT is under an existential threat. If the CAA / MAA play hard ball with the current climate the presence of Totterdown could either serious curtail what RIAT can do, or even worse force it to have to close down completely at Fairford. That should be a worry for everyone!

As unlikely as it is if the worst happened there it really could be the end for Airshows in the UK as we know it.

I can assure you that you would leave with a heavy bucket.

I agree that were the worst to happen then it would be catastrophic, but where do you draw the line? I dont think you can take away the right of the guy to run his business nor dictate to those taking that minimal risk, come on lets be honest I faced more danger on the M6 and M5 going to the event than the time I spent on Totterdown.

Those who frequent Totterdown who dont or have never paid to get in dont meet with my approval particularly either. However they still put money into the local community, without whom the support or at least tolerance of RIAT would not happen.

[sithrity]

Greed, jealousy and rampant nimbyism are the only reason people can object to Totterdown.

What absolute tripe!!

Totterdown is a safety risk, not just for those stood underneath it but also for the crews flying their aircraft. We all saw the Mustang having to make a forced landing in a field outside Duxford last week.

Totterdown means that aircraft have to change their course to avoid it, this isn't in dispute I noticed it, and I am sure other UKAR people did too.
It therefore has an adverse effect on the Ticket holder experience.

"Freeloader" is the right term, because I will bet a significant amount that if the show was the same price as Totterdown, everyone who goes there would be in the show. Really, lets not pretend the usual rubbish spouted about it being about the different photo shot perspective.

The Air Tattoo is a charitable institution, all of its profits go to the Charitable Trust. I hope those at Totterdown, and in fact the farmer himself make a sizeable donation, but I suspect given the nature of people going there, they won't.
Sooner it closes the better.

Tripe you say? Maybe you should get the facts before making such a bold statement! My group of 12 (5 under 16) bought 7 tickets for Saturday and spent lots of money while in the airfield. I can assure you lots of Totterdown residents do. Is spending upwards of £400 towards a charitable institution good natured enough for you?

[melodrama]

Interesting discussion. I pay most years for RIAT but have also watched from Totterdown, Rhymes and east end of runway. As a complete hypocrite I think it's absolutely right that Rhymes has been closed - purely on safety grounds. The crowds there in 2015 were such that the emergency gate was blocked and vast numbers of cars parked all over the verges - all under or close to the display line. Totterdown is set further back and Im not sure how much it interferes with the displays. It gets overflown and clipped a few times during the day (particularly by the Mirages - hooray!) but it doesn't seem to be too intrusive. It is pretty big though it has to be said - maybe a compromise would be close one field thus reducing the risk of a bad incident. Us airshow fans can't deny that Shoreham happened and that, although it was terrible luck that the Hunter hit the A27 as opposed to green fields beyond, the fact is that an aircraft travelling at 500 knots can end up in a lot of places so the risk needs to be minimised. I think, regrettably, then that Totterdown should take the money.

[captainfurious]

I have attended RIAT for approx 25 years. Originally we camped south of the runway in 2 campsites that are now gone. For the last 6 years we have been at Totterdown. I camp from Thurs to Sun. We always go to the end of the runway for a few hours at some point, go into RIAT on Saturday and the remaining time at the campsite. In no way do I think I free load. We always pay our ticket and get our programme year in year out. Watching from the runway, Totterdown and going in all offer different perspective's of the display and I love every bit of it. I wouldn't ever not go in but the excitement of viewing from Totterdowm is just amazing. The Flanker and Couteau Delta especially this year were something to experience. And I don't feel the display lines are any different in recent years. I know the risks. I was there when the Mig 29's crashed. It's my choice. If Totterdown were to go or the show moved I for one would still attend but I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't be disappointed. Long live RIAT and long live Totterdown!

[DonaldGrump]

Another little perspective to consider.

One of the adjoining fields bordering Totterdown is owned by a lottery winner apparently and one with little intelligence. On Saturday I witnessed a quite remarkable thing. Whilst display aircraft were flying overhead several of this Clampitt familly decided to fly one of those big parachute things that you hang on to for dear life. A fairly young lad was barely keeping hold of the thing at one point.

Needless to say those on Totterdown were quick to point out the folly of this and what would happen if the parachute was not removed post haste.

Had Totterdown not been open these fools next door would have still been out doing thier thing and may well have caused the display to be halted at best and at worst??

Maybe we need to evacuate all buildings and residence within a 3 mile radius of the base?

[vulcan558]

If RIAT wasn't selling out every year and people were viewing from Totterdown instead then yes it would be.Having said that the campsite/park and view can only hold so many people so once it's full that's it.Many people rely on Totterdown for somewhere to stay and many(myself included) do at least one day in the show.I would have thought if it was going to close,it would have gone by now like Rhymes has.It seems they wanted Rhymes gone moreso as most of the displays seem to be centered over there.The campsite sold out in January and I daresay it will once again.It even has it's own Facebook page now as well as a website.I know some hate Totterdown but for the moment it's here to stay and those people who dissagree will just have to accept that fact.Some RIAT program sellers came on Sunday but I only saw one person purchase a program on my row of tents.Maybe if they were a little cheaper,they would have sold more?

If there were indeed official programme sellers at Totterdown, surely that shows DBH condoning viewing from the campsite? If they're so OK with it that they'll send employees/volunteers in to flog £12 tat, it clearly can't be too dangerous, can it?

Yes they was a group in official RIAT tops selling programs, I felt sorry for a young lad who ran over very excited, only to walk away still clucthing is five pound note with no program. Guess the £12 pound mate was a blow to him and is nice crisp plastic fiver.

Yes I blew £100 on Riat tickets but instead spent £15 and go a more pleasant flying display,
I did not want to be penned in to a area each end of the long flightline50 deep with no chance of seeing the runway, with tented villages takeing up so much crowdline, I thought sod it.
I will pay the same price as everyone else and get the exact same view. Why should i pay to enter riat and not get the same view as everyone else.

Its RIAT that are makeing the problem, ive been to air tattoos at riat with daly crowds in the hundred thousands.
All dotted along the that very long runway. Today they have 60k perday and most are crammed into 2 areas each end of the runway, and 5 thousand in tented villages and grandstands taking up most of the space center.

Far price far view, you do not get this inside anymore, i never used to see step ladders years ago either.
The above as encouraged this over the years.
Riat as gone down hill since it became a money grabbing business, and not a true charity they it was.
Its now a private enterprise with millions on wages and still can only really run by volunteers.
Volunteers was how it was run. Lets hope this was the last riat at Fairford.
And a new chapter at scampton give them the reality check they need.

[st24]

Lets hope this was the last RIAT at Fairford.
And a new chapter at scampton give them the reality check they need.

I always enjoy trying to translate your posts into something vaguely reminiscent of English and agreeing with somethings you post. But that last statement, jeez no Scampton is a dog of a place and for all its faults RIAT at Fairford is where it belongs and probably the best/only venue for a large military show left in the country.

[Dan O'Hagan]

Rich, amid your trademark mangling of the English language you make a lot of excellent points.

The programme, as heavily-sponsored as it is, should never be costing the paying punter anything in excess of £6 at the most. Non-league football teams manage to put out a full colour glossy programme for a couple of hundred supporters for £2-3 a pop. RIAT's programme has for years been an utter rip-off.

Once inside, on your £55 ticket, the show's eagerness to fleece you has long been blatant and shameless in a way that even Duxford can't equal. How much were the checklists and movement sheets this year? RIAT set the catering prices inside the showground - isn't that what cartels do? Want a view of the runway near crowd centre - how about a seat in the Gullible Garden or the Squeeze Your Wallet Grandstand? Surely, once you're inside an airshow, especially a premium-rate affair like RIAT, a good chance of getting a place at crowd centre should be a given.

Like a lot of the large shows now, it is a horrible experience inside the fence with a public admission ticket. No wonder so many spin a yarn to the organisers to get themselves a press pass..

Long may Totterdown offer a decent alternative.

[Dan213]

[quote="Dan O'Hagan"]Rich, amid your trademark mangling of the English language you make a lot of excellent points.

The programme, as heavily-sponsored as it is, should never be costing the paying punter anything in excess of £6 at the most. Non-league football teams manage to put out a full colour glossy programme for a couple of hundred supporters for £2-3 a pop. RIAT's programme has for years been an utter rip-off.

Once inside, on your £55 ticket, the show's eagerness to fleece you has long been blatant and shameless in a way that even Duxford can't equal. How much were the checklists and movement sheets this year? RIAT set the catering prices inside the showground - isn't that what cartels do? Want a view of the runway near crowd centre - how about a seat in the Gullible Garden or the Squeeze Your Wallet Grandstand? Surely, once you're inside an airshow, especially a premium-rate affair like RIAT, a good chance of getting a place at crowd centre should be a given.

Like a lot of the large shows now, it is a horrible experience inside the fence with a public admission ticket. No wonder so many spin a yarn to the organisers to get themselves a press pass..
You can hardly compare it to an A5 non-league football programme that has all of 20 pages. If anything, a more accurate comparison would be that of a programme to a West End show or similar. £12 is expensive, but it's hardly the rip off that you make it out to be