Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby RIAT Air Ops on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 1:55 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:Bottom line is that moving the display line further and higher from the public means photographers have no choice but to use the campsites, as from inside too many shows (not just RIAT) are distant and remarkably sterile.


The RIAT display line hasn't been pushed farther away from the crowd line and the height minima has also not changed; worth noting that the display line is a boundary.

Cheers, Tom
RIAT Air Ops

Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby Vodka on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 1:57 pm

Thank you for that Tom. . . . . perhaps peoples eyes have just got older but not any wiser? :clap:
Vodka

Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby jayne_morris on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 5:16 pm

Canon wrote:a camera and lens is an item that is expected to be at an airshow, chances are if you're behind my camera and lens then that means you arrived later than me, so thats your own fault :whistle:
A flag pole on the other hand serves no purpose and no one gains anything from it being there. In fact everyone loses from it being there during the show. Put it up before/ after the show if you want. but during the show keep it down.
Must remember to take some kind of cutters with me next year for any flag poles that end up in my shots :ninja:


I didn't see a single flagpole along the crowd line or in the grandstands at the show this year
jayne_morris

Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby speedbird2639 on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 5:29 pm

@jayne - I think Canon is referring to those who stay at Totterdown to watch the show.
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speedbird2639

Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby Canon on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 6:24 pm

jayne_morris wrote:
Canon wrote:a camera and lens is an item that is expected to be at an airshow, chances are if you're behind my camera and lens then that means you arrived later than me, so thats your own fault :whistle:
A flag pole on the other hand serves no purpose and no one gains anything from it being there. In fact everyone loses from it being there during the show. Put it up before/ after the show if you want. but during the show keep it down.
Must remember to take some kind of cutters with me next year for any flag poles that end up in my shots :ninja:


I didn't see a single flagpole along the crowd line or in the grandstands at the show this year


Talking about inside Totterdown. Any flags that get into my shots will mysteriously disappear under the cover of darkness :ninja: So if you camp at Totterdown, and like your flag, take it down during the flying display :grin:
Canon 80D
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Canon

Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby sopwithflyer on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 9:26 pm

DerekF wrote:
Alanko wrote:I'm picturing a grassy field full of wee tents and fat, sweaty aircraft spotters. Ewwwww.

Dan O'Hagan wrote:Bottom line is that moving the display line further and higher from the public means photographers have no choice but to use the campsites...


How about actually watching the aircraft with their own eyes, rather than impulsively snapping everything passing over? Or finding a better hobby? :whistle:

Colour me old fashioned, but I go to airshows to enjoy seeing the aircraft, not simply filling up an SD card. :grin:


Boy are you on the wrong forum with that sort of attitude. Many of us enjoy taking photos and that the fact that you don't doesn't actually make you a better person.


I get Alanko though. As I said on another thread. Someone stood directly in front of me on Saturday with his big lens (They may be reading this - exciting) When I told him to .... off he said, "well you aren't taking photos." An airshow isn't just a photographic session - its an airshow. I accept we all have different reasons for going, but to many (see the manners comments) it seems to be the, 'be all, and end all', an addiction.
sopwithflyer

Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby DerekF on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 9:44 pm

Yes I understand that everyone goes to airshows for different reasons. But that is no excuse for Alanko's somewhat offensive and condescending attitude to those who choose to do something different from him. Once again we see someone posting who seems to do just to provoke a reaction.
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DerekF

Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby DonaldGrump on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 9:58 pm

DerekF wrote:Yes I understand that everyone goes to airshows for different reasons. But that is no excuse for Alanko's somewhat offensive and condescending attitude to those who choose to do something different from him. Once again we see someone posting who seems to do just to provoke a reaction.


Oh come on Derek its not offensive is it really. I think there have been enough posts on here posted by the photography people on here to prove there is indeed a superior attitude amongst many who attend shows. I have witnessed it myself on numerous occasions, its appalling. As per usual its not everybody but a higher proportion than many on here would like to admit.

I am one who also basically goes to shows to watch the aircraft, and when I have taken a few pics its has become clear that I miss out on the spectacle as i am concentrating on trying to take a picture rather than what i am taking a picture of. Equally I simply cannot compete with the wonderful shots many post on here. I dont however believe it is needed to have the manners of a starving pig to get those great shots.

Honestly if you are offended by Alankos post, you really are easily offended.
DonaldGrump

Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby DerekF on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 10:08 pm

Hence my use of the phrase "somewhat offensive". Personally I am not bothered what anyone thinks of how I wish to enjoy airshows but I still think is an odd attitude to come on an airshow forum to slag off photographers when very clearly many of us enjoy our photography. That's all.
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DerekF

Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby kianelle on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 9:03 am

Big lenses at totterdown !!
Never seen them !!
https://flic.kr/p/WmaKf7
kianelle

Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby Ouragan on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 9:15 am

Derek, your post could be seen to be offensive and condescending as well. Them's that lives in glass houses etc... :down:

And Vodka, you are absolutely spot on. :clap:
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Ouragan

Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby DerekF on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 9:23 am

Ouragan wrote:Derek, your post could be seen to be offensive and condescending as well. Them's that lives in glass houses etc... :down:

And Vodka, you are absolutely spot on. :clap:



How on earth could anything I've posted be construed as being offensive? And I was accused of being sensitive?

Jeez.. This forum......

I don't often agree with Dan O but he is right. This forum isn't what it used to be...
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DerekF

Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby Ouragan on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 9:29 am

DerekF wrote:
Boy are you on the wrong forum with that sort of attitude. Many of us enjoy taking photos and that the fact that you don't doesn't actually make you a better person.


Really?
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Ouragan

Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby Wes_Howes on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 9:33 am

I don't see anything offensive in what Derek said. He was merely pointing out that having a go a people with cameras, especially on this forum, is a bit of an odd thing to do.

Good luck to anyone brave enough to take the flag poles down with the underwear attached to them :sick:
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Wes_Howes

Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby sithrity on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 9:41 am

I take a camera to airshows (nothing special, just a 300mm lens) I try to set myself up in a good spot, never that far forward as we have a small tent for the kids. Talking about photography at airshows being an "addiction" or "illness". I have another theory, maybe these (us?) people feel the need to justify the cost of their equipment as often as possible. I sometimes consider leaving mine at home, then remind myself how much it all cost me. Its no excuse for rudeness though.
I don't know everything there is to know about our hobby.

Kids, aviation, missus then responsibilities, (in that order)
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sithrity

Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby DerekF on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 9:44 am

Ouragan wrote:
DerekF wrote:
Boy are you on the wrong forum with that sort of attitude. Many of us enjoy taking photos and that the fact that you don't doesn't actually make you a better person.


Really?


And you're offended by that?

I can only apologize if you are offended by that. I had no idea that such sensitivity existed.
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DerekF

Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby capercaillie on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 10:05 am

kianelle wrote:Big lenses at totterdown !!
Never seen them !!
https://flic.kr/p/WmaKf7


I think I've found Wally! :up:
"The surrogate voice of st24"
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Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby bobtomlin on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 10:34 am

Just wondered what are your thoughts on Totterdown and do you think it is bad in some way for RIAT ?



Ticket sales-wise:- I believe Saturday was a sell out (which would suggest that Totterdown being there is academic). I don't know how close Sunday was to selling out.
I've not seen from there myself, but would have thought the views on arrivals/departures days wouldn't be as good from Totterdown as the P&V's, so I don't think that would affect those parts of RIAT?
Totterdown's always been an option for those attending more than one day at RIAT needing to stay somewhere.

Disclaimer - I'm not a pilot, aircraft designer or expert in aviation/airshow safety, just an enthusiast with a camera. :smile:

Safety-wise: Obviously there's potential for an aircraft, or part of one, to end up at Totterdown, just the same as there is for other places within a fairly large area around Fairford.
Airshows are always going to involve some amount of risk. Don't be near a Helicopter when the tail rotor fails.
Yes, organisers can do some things to minimise risks but will not be able to completely eliminate them.
People have mentioned the risks involved with overflying. Also the idea of keeping areas free for potential emergency landing sites/avoidance of crowds.

That last one is presuming that the pilot will still have control over his aircraft.
The 'elephant in the room' is that an aircraft (or parts of it) could potentially end up anywhere within a several mile radius (including the crowd centre, approach roads, official campsite, houses) should there ever be some catastrophic incident where the pilot has no control (e.g. collision with another aircraft, aircraft structural failure, controls failure, pilot blackout), especially if this occurs at some height.
I'm 'painting a bleak picture here' but the more you think (about how insurers might think) about the possible potential risks with airshows, it's a miracle they take place at all, especially if looking at footage of incidents like Ramstein, Reno and Sknyliv, from where I think a combined total of 154 people in the actual airshow crowd were killed (you can find the footage on google/youtube but I won't link here and it's not easy viewing).

Talking generally, not just about Fairford, for a moment; minimising that risk to an official airshow crowd might at some stage have involved pushing the display line back, but this might have correspondingly increased the potential risk to outlying areas - (and just thinking about Shoreham as an example here for a moment), that can affect the risk to people who have no interest/nothing to do with the show, e.g. on a road on their way to somewhere. Conversely, keeping things tight to the crowdline might increase this risk to the show goer, but decrease it to the local area.
Personally, I choose to accept the risk when I go to an airshow (as I'm sure many do - also probably many of those at Totterdown), but didn't see a disclaimer on the ticket and don't know how insurers/solicitors think regarding liability in these situations - I'd be interested to know, though. I think Rhymes used to say 'the owners accept no liability/responsiblity for.......on their land' or similar, but can't be sure.
I'd be happy to agree to a disclaimer although I'd bet solicitors/insurers would probably say that organisers would still have a 'duty of care' whilst on the premises, or something?

My point here is that by raising concerns and singling out Totterdown, (where people have actually chosen to gather to see the spectacle and probably accept some risk), concerns could correspondingly be raised about other outlying areas where people are, who are not interested in the Air Tattoo (and therefore a whole can of worms). They (and their solicitors/insurers) might start demanding that they should not be put at increased risk and threaten the existance of the whole thing.
Do they still keep the M11 open during Duxford shows? I believe a '109 'hopped low over this once and a Delphin actually ended up on the carriageway?

Risk wise, I do wonder about some crossover manoeuveres (esp. the Frecce Tricolori multi aircraft, multi direction one) and some formation crossovers/breaks which are often at crowd centre.
Tip: Don't watch online footage of Helicopters losing tail rotor control and then shedding rotor blades on impact just before watching one doing a hovering display in front of the main grandstand.


Viewing flying display from the Airshow-wise: I didn't notice any difference this year to the other years I've been in the crowdline. They still appear further away than I'd personally like them to be.
bobtomlin

Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby Georgeconna on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 10:46 am

RIAT Air Ops wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote:Bottom line is that moving the display line further and higher from the public means photographers have no choice but to use the campsites, as from inside too many shows (not just RIAT) are distant and remarkably sterile.


The RIAT display line hasn't been pushed farther away from the crowd line and the height minima has also not changed; worth noting that the display line is a boundary.

Cheers, Tom



"worth noting that the display line is a boundary". That's good info.

People are shooting aircraft and need to use bigger and bigger Lenses, I was happy in the 2000's with a 300, now a 600 is necessary. Now I jsut can be bothered photographing and enjoy the flying.

Maybe the line is still the same as Tom Sates but the fast jet displays were north of Rhymes Farm when that was open so something has changed to push the displays out further and further and to stay away from the Boundary. Fear of the FDD?

Even touch and goes now are a thing of the past with overshoots being the norm now.
Cheers

George

Zero shows for 2018 Giving in a Rest.
Georgeconna

Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby sithrity on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 11:10 am

Georgeconna wrote:
RIAT Air Ops wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote:Bottom line is that moving the display line further and higher from the public means photographers have no choice but to use the campsites, as from inside too many shows (not just RIAT) are distant and remarkably sterile.


The RIAT display line hasn't been pushed farther away from the crowd line and the height minima has also not changed; worth noting that the display line is a boundary.

Cheers, Tom



"worth noting that the display line is a boundary". That's good info.

People are shooting aircraft and need to use bigger and bigger Lenses, I was happy in the 2000's with a 300, now a 600 is necessary. Now I jsut can be bothered photographing and enjoy the flying.

Maybe the line is still the same as Tom Sates but the fast jet displays were north of Rhymes Farm when that was open so something has changed to push the displays out further and further and to stay away from the Boundary. Fear of the FDD?

Even touch and goes now are a thing of the past with overshoots being the norm now.


Not always. Here's my poor effort. :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHCdGQtkIv4&t=59s
I don't know everything there is to know about our hobby.

Kids, aviation, missus then responsibilities, (in that order)
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sithrity

Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby CJS on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 11:53 am

capercaillie wrote:
kianelle wrote:Big lenses at totterdown !!
Never seen them !!
https://flic.kr/p/WmaKf7


I think I've found Wally! :up:


The guy at the bottom - his lens got so heavy he fell over. :shock:
"Forewarned is forearmed"
How do you know I didn't?
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CJS

Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby TYPHOON3 on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 12:44 pm

kianelle wrote:Big lenses at totterdown !!
Never seen them !!
https://flic.kr/p/WmaKf7

This group of guys were Dutch and were only a few yards away from my tent.They were there Sat and Sun and they left their cars in the park and view field and walked accross to camping field 2.The guy with the stripey trousers got really excited at times when he had seen he had got the shot he wanted, he made some really strange noises.
TYPHOON3

Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby sopwithflyer on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 2:10 pm

CJS wrote:
capercaillie wrote:
kianelle wrote:Big lenses at totterdown !!
Never seen them !!
https://flic.kr/p/WmaKf7


I think I've found Wally! :up:


The guy at the bottom - his lens got so heavy he fell over. :shock:


Isnt that wonderful? 4 aviation photographers and an entomolgy photographer all in harmony . You can see he is just telling a couple of grass hoppers to get out of the way of his 2 spotted ladybird.
sopwithflyer

Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby captainfurious on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 4:57 pm

I can see my tent!
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captainfurious

Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby Big Eric on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 6:08 pm

captainfurious wrote:I can see my tent!


Tim the Enchanter doesn't live in a tent, don't be so silly ! :grin:
Big Eric

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