Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby Canon on Wed 19 Jul 2017, 8:51 pm

boff180 wrote:
Father Ted wrote:Boff180/Andrew ,just catching up with the pros/cons on this thread.

I've met you at the approach end of a runway before, as with a fair few others here.
You knew of a potential risk and pilots knew you were there during a critical phase of flight.
Are you not part of the same 'problem' you are pointing out?

Everyone in the vicinity of Fairford Village, all the campsites, RIAT itself and Marston Meysey et al are at risk should something go horribly wrong.

Yet, we all still attend.

One question to you.

Did Totterdown campsite really RUIN your RIAT 2017 experience?

If so, why?


Cheers,
Paul Severn
Totterdowner and RIAT enthusiast/supporter.


Sitting at the approach (not under it) on a normal day of operations is a completely different kettle of fish to being under an air display as you full well know, it's also got nothing to do with distracting the pilot - it's about risk mitigation which (sadly) is what the new regulations are all about. In the past, when I was younger and naïve I did use "naughty fields" at Waddington, do I use naughty fields anywhere now? No I don't - my opinion and understanding about them has changed.

As I previously posted, if/when pilots begin to actively avoid the area (as the regs say they should now) and are pushed further away as a result (which from accounts from the site after my original post, this was not the case this year) then yes at that point the site should close. Regardless of how popular a location might be, if it begins to negatively effect the display for those that are viewing from the event itself then it becomes a problem.

Did Totterdown ruin my event this year? No it didn't. Did I ever insinuate it had? No I didn't.

The one location that I will say - without question - always affected my RIAT experience was Rhymes. I don't pay £200+ for a ticket for a large number of my runway shots to have hundreds of people on ladders in them at the fence.


Well the mustang incident recently was on approach to landing, and when it hit the field it was off the approach not under it, so you may well have been in more danger sitting at the approach rather than under it :whistle:

Also maybe if the planes displayed between Totterdown and the Fairford crowdline (as opposed to above/ behind Totterdown, with fast passes in front), then 1) people wouldn't use Totterdown for viewing the display as inside would be much better and 2) Totterdown and Fairford village would be 'safer' (not that they aren't already) areas to be in. So the rules pushing aircraft further out are actually making it more dangerous as opposed to safer.... now if only the CAA/MAA would realise that.
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Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby boff180 on Wed 19 Jul 2017, 9:04 pm

Canon wrote:Well the mustang incident recently was on approach to landing, and when it hit the field it was off the approach not under it, so you may well have been in more danger sitting at the approach rather than under it :whistle:


Tell me, what part of the Mustang incident occurred on a normal day of operations?

Also maybe if the planes displayed between Totterdown and the Fairford crowdline (as opposed to above/ behind Totterdown, with fast passes in front), then 1) people wouldn't use Totterdown for viewing the display as inside would be much better and 2) Totterdown and Fairford village would be 'safer' (not that they aren't already) areas to be in. So the rules pushing aircraft further out are actually making it more dangerous as opposed to safer.... now if only the CAA/MAA would realise that.


Quite agree and that would be the perfect solution however, apart from the most modern solo participants, for many display aircraft (especially teams) this is a physical impossibility.
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Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby Canon on Wed 19 Jul 2017, 9:10 pm

boff180 wrote:
Canon wrote:Well the mustang incident recently was on approach to landing, and when it hit the field it was off the approach not under it, so you may well have been in more danger sitting at the approach rather than under it :whistle:


Tell me, what part of the Mustang incident occurred on a normal day of operations?


Well planes have to land whenever they fly, whether he was doing an airshow display or just going up for a test flight/ practice display, it could have happened, that type of incident is not exclusive to airshows.
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Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby Father Ted on Wed 19 Jul 2017, 9:18 pm

Andy,
What? No juvenile clown insults this time?
Bless.

To suggest that Totterdown should shut down, because of active avoidance during repositioning is kinda indicative of your stance.
I guess you are not a fan then?

I have seen pre and post Shoreham restriction displays both inside and outside of RIAT and can honestly say I don't think it affects most people's enjoyment of an air show, yet you and others like you, look like you have an agenda against that campsite.

As the freeloader arguement doesn't really hold water , what else?

P.s.
Your absolute belief that you were at less risk under an approaching aircraft on finals than at a display shows how much of an 'expert' you , and you alone, regard yourself.

Try an open mind for once Andy, you may find it liberating.

Awaiting your next indignant response or insult with 'trepidation'.

Or, maybe not.
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Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby DonaldGrump on Wed 19 Jul 2017, 9:38 pm

boff180 wrote:
Father Ted wrote:Boff180/Andrew ,just catching up with the pros/cons on this thread.

I've met you at the approach end of a runway before, as with a fair few others here.
You knew of a potential risk and pilots knew you were there during a critical phase of flight.
Are you not part of the same 'problem' you are pointing out?

Everyone in the vicinity of Fairford Village, all the campsites, RIAT itself and Marston Meysey et al are at risk should something go horribly wrong.

Yet, we all still attend.

One question to you.

Did Totterdown campsite really RUIN your RIAT 2017 experience?

If so, why?


Cheers,
Paul Severn
Totterdowner and RIAT enthusiast/supporter.


Sitting at the approach (not under it) on a normal day of operations is a completely different kettle of fish to being under an air display as you full well know, it's also got nothing to do with distracting the pilot - it's about risk mitigation which (sadly) is what the new regulations are all about. In the past, when I was younger and naïve I did use "naughty fields" at Waddington, do I use naughty fields anywhere now? No I don't - my opinion and understanding about them has changed.

As I previously posted, if/when pilots begin to actively avoid the area (as the regs say they should now) and are pushed further away as a result (which from accounts from the site after my original post, this was not the case this year) then yes at that point the site should close. Regardless of how popular a location might be, if it begins to negatively effect the display for those that are viewing from the event itself then it becomes a problem.

Did Totterdown ruin my event this year? No it didn't. Did I ever insinuate it had? No I didn't.

The one location that I will say - without question - always affected my RIAT experience was Rhymes. I don't pay £200+ for a ticket for a large number of my runway shots to have hundreds of people on ladders in them at the fence. Tottedown itself is barely noticeable in photos.

If the site isn't negatively affecting the display or the distance of the display for people actually at the event then there is no issue (unless you follow the regs to the letter). It's if the opposite becomes the case that there is.



My word how dare anyone stand where you wish to take photos, even if its the best part of a mile from where you are sat/stood. Bloody peasants, I blame the parents.
DonaldGrump

Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby boff180 on Wed 19 Jul 2017, 9:43 pm

Again, you are putting words in my mouth to make your own point and to support your own agenda.

1. At what point did I claim to be an 'expert'? This thread is a discussion, one where I provided my opinion - one you quite clearly have a personal agenda against.
2. We are discussing people being under displays in circumstances that are now tightly governed by regulations which now specifically mention their presence (and that they should be avoided) - not being near the approach of an airfield during normal operations and the risks involved in such.
3. This has nothing to do with freeloading at all and I never said it did.

Everyone is entitled to their own view and mine is quite clear having regard to the event, the popularity of Totterdown and a reasonable approach to the regs; applying a priority of needs to each - if aircraft aren't being pushed out further from the event to avoid the major secondary crowd area then fine, however if the latter begins to occur then the secondary crowd area should be closed. T
The other long term alternative which, would be an absolute disaster for everyone, is the adoption of alternative display lines as the Reds did at Cosford and Duxford - we all lose in that situation.

A closed mind with an agenda would be one demanding that the site it is closed regardless....

p.s.
And the clown smiley? I have a screenshot of your very facebook post that deliberately misquoted my post to support your own point. In those circumstances, I'd say the clown smiley was fully justified.
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Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby Father Ted on Wed 19 Jul 2017, 10:27 pm

I'm flattered you got a screenshot.

Your beligerance over deliberate misquoting is far beyond my realms of giving an actual hoot .
Otherwise, I'd have cut n pasted you.

But, my main point was and is...you were saying that Totterdown should close because of active avoidance, were you not?

The Reds at Cosford proved what a disaster altered display lines can be, agreed , but the display at RIAT showed that the adjacent campsites did not push them to any extreme of crowd/public avoidance.
We even had the T'birds overflying the crowd to add to the risk.

Totterdown Farm has been there a long time , it did not affect display patterns or cause undue problems to the display teams or pilots.

We are where we we were, many years ago, many people enjoying RIAT from many vantage/camping areas

Long may it continue.


I'm off to nail Mrs Popoff.
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Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby AARDVARK on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 6:56 am

I think the problem lies with the fact that many displays have become so distant and sanitised,I have to admit that many times during the day(s)I was,(for the want of another word)getting bored,not because the displays weren't any good but because they seemed so far away!
Rhymes was an amazing place to view the displays ,some may say it was dangerous,but to me it was simply getting up close and personal with the dynamics of the displays,it also gave photographers excellent opportunities to take dynamic photos that you simply couldn't get within the airshow "safe zone",sadly that seems to have been eradicated for good now and we are left with Totterdown,which is the next best option,I did feel this year that aircraft weren't flying directly over the area as much and instead of doing tight turn radius over the hill were widening their display area,the shots I tock on my 1 day their don't appear to be as near or as dynamic as last year (which was my first experience of Totterdown).
The question of is it safe or should be allowed to continue...well I guess you could argue that RIAT has been a victim of its own success and p&v spots have popped up all over the area,Totterdown(apart from the defunct Ryhmes)just happens to be the prime spot for this,weather an aircraft display (god forbid)would ever end up crashing their instead of say Fairford itself ,or any other surrounding area is open to conjecture!
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Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby profile_M on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 7:19 am

AARDVARK wrote:,I did feel this year that aircraft weren't flying directly over the area as much and instead of doing tight turn radius over the hill were widening their display area,the shots I tock on my 1 day their don't appear to be as near or as dynamic as last year (which was my first experience of Totterdown)


Which field were you in? I camp in the first field on the right as you come on to site and I saw little or no difference to the last 2 years I've been there? We had tight turns overhead from F22, Belgian F16, Tornado etc etc. Having spoken to some of the other campers who've been there many more years than me, they saw no difference either? I am confused :dizzy:
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Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby vulcan558 on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 8:03 am

A lot of people go into the show but live the weekend at these campsites, Andy did you have trouble booking your normal Hotel. Take Totterdown out and you will find those few thousand weekend campers in the hunt for local hotels, this will impact yourself .
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Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby Georgeconna on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 8:32 am

"I'm off to nail Mrs Popoff"

How did it go then? :grin:
Cheers

George

2017 shows
Yeovilton via Webcast from My Armchair.
Foynes and Bray for my sins.
Thats me done for 2017
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Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby Georgeconna on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 8:34 am

vulcan558 wrote:A lot of people go into the show but live the weekend at these campsites, Andy did you have trouble booking your normal Hotel. Take Totterdown out and you will find those few thousand weekend campers in the hunt for local hotels, this will impact yourself .


Or perhaps due to extra cost they won't bother travelling at all to the Area. Plenty of other things do it the UK.
Cheers

George

2017 shows
Yeovilton via Webcast from My Armchair.
Foynes and Bray for my sins.
Thats me done for 2017
Georgeconna

Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby AARDVARK on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 9:23 am

profile_M wrote:
AARDVARK wrote:,I did feel this year that aircraft weren't flying directly over the area as much and instead of doing tight turn radius over the hill were widening their display area,the shots I tock on my 1 day their don't appear to be as near or as dynamic as last year (which was my first experience of Totterdown)


Yeah ,I don't know ,maybe it's me then ,I was in the field as you first pay,I just thought some displays were circling behind the hill rather than round it,that and avoiding the flags haha

Which field were you in? I camp in the first field on the right as you come on to site and I saw little or no difference to the last 2 years I've been there? We had tight turns overhead from F22, Belgian F16, Tornado etc etc. Having spoken to some of the other campers who've been there many more years than me, they saw no difference either? I am confused :dizzy:
AARDVARK

Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby Ouragan on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 9:29 am

boff180 wrote:The one location that I will say - without question - always affected my RIAT experience was Rhymes. I don't pay £200+ for a ticket for a large number of my runway shots to have hundreds of people on ladders in them at the fence.


Well, I have seen a lot of arrogance expressed on the internet, but I have to say this trumps most of it. Who on earth are you that you think you're that important?
Last edited by Ouragan on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby mikek on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 9:31 am

:snack:
Handsomest UKAR member.
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Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 9:55 am

I have used both Totterdown and Rhymes in the past and I preferred the former over the latter. Maybe I was positioned badly being too close to the fence, but I got nothing out of Rhymes really.

I would certainly consider using Totterdown again, and might well have last weekend if the weather forecast for Sunday had been more favourable.

It'll take a lot to get me back inside the fence at Fairford, certainly as a day tripper. Never say never, but the whole thing seems so unappealing to me now.
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Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby 2E0TVR on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 10:59 am

Canon wrote:You wouldn't like it if I stood in front of you and waved a massive flag in front of your camera, so don't do it to others.



I feel the same about photographers when they start waving their big lenses in front of me, blocking my view.

PS. Didn't see any flags on poles...they must have been behind me.
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Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby DerekF on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 11:17 am

A camera and lens is an item that could be reasonably expected at an airshow and is not likely to stay in the same place for long.
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Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby boff180 on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 11:21 am

Father Ted wrote:you were saying that Totterdown should close because of active avoidance, were you not?

If it proves that as a result of this happening (if it ever does I stress) aircraft fly further away from the event then, yes.

Like it or not, I am of the view that the relative enjoyment/proximity of flying acts to the actual event itself should take absolute precedence over campsites/secondary crowd areas. It is a harsh stance, I accept, however considering some of the alternatives if the situation arises due to the new regulations it is, in my view, the most effective for the least pain.

Father Ted wrote:The Reds at Cosford proved what a disaster altered display lines can be, agreed , but the display at RIAT showed that the adjacent campsites did not push them to any extreme of crowd/public avoidance.

Considering the location of Fairford village, a situation that potentially shows how hypocritical the RAF are being regarding where these alternative display lines have been implemented this year?

vulcan558 wrote:A lot of people go into the show but live the weekend at these campsites, Andy did you have trouble booking your normal Hotel. Take Totterdown out and you will find those few thousand weekend campers in the hunt for local hotels, this will impact yourself .

This year was down to a wedding booking the usual hotel in its entirety 18 months in advance. But yes, it probably would, however I would rather experience difficulties in finding a hotel in that situation (which according to witnesses after my initial post isn't happening) than see the experience from inside the showground itself be eroded. There is also the potential for further camp sites to be set up south of the display line - take the new official camp site for instance.

Ouragan wrote:Well, I have seen a lot of arrogance expressed on the internet, but I have to say this trumps most of it. Who on earth are you that you think you're that important?

I'm not alone in that view - far from it - however perhaps I'm one of the few that is willing (stupid enough?) to go on record as having that opinion.
It isn't self important, I did however make the comment personal by saying £200+ which was a mistake, it is a view having regard to the photographic opportunities from inside (which I know, can be controversial stance for some anyway) - for years anyone at crowd centre or to the west has had to put up with runway/low photos with swathes of the background consisting of heads, cars and stepladders. It didn't make for good images and limited opportunities from inside. With Rhymes gone the photographic opportunities have significantly improved for people inside the event.
As stated above I am of the view that the relative enjoyment of visitors to the actual event itself should take absolute precedence over secondary crowd areas - and that's not a "freeloader" comment before anyone makes it out to be one....
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Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby Alanko on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 11:47 am

I'm picturing a grassy field full of wee tents and fat, sweaty aircraft spotters. Ewwwww.

Dan O'Hagan wrote:Bottom line is that moving the display line further and higher from the public means photographers have no choice but to use the campsites...


How about actually watching the aircraft with their own eyes, rather than impulsively snapping everything passing over? Or finding a better hobby? :whistle:

Colour me old fashioned, but I go to airshows to enjoy seeing the aircraft, not simply filling up an SD card. :grin:
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Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby DerekF on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 11:52 am

Alanko wrote:I'm picturing a grassy field full of wee tents and fat, sweaty aircraft spotters. Ewwwww.

Dan O'Hagan wrote:Bottom line is that moving the display line further and higher from the public means photographers have no choice but to use the campsites...


How about actually watching the aircraft with their own eyes, rather than impulsively snapping everything passing over? Or finding a better hobby? :whistle:

Colour me old fashioned, but I go to airshows to enjoy seeing the aircraft, not simply filling up an SD card. :grin:


Boy are you on the wrong forum with that sort of attitude. Many of us enjoy taking photos and that the fact that you don't doesn't actually make you a better person.
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Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby Vodka on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 12:16 pm

Good God! you would never think we here, share the same passion for aviation ? :dizzy:

Reading the comments in this thread is nothing shy of kids, I mean 6 year olds! Arguing in a primary school playground about utter tosh they think they're 'All knowing' about.

' My Dad is bigger than your dad!'.. really! 'My wanger is bigger than yours. . . '

A day in P&V East is enough of a reminder where people are in life. 500mm being slung around as if they're in 'The Stan'. . Wearing Tactical outerwear?
Only thing to be protected from is the verbal tirade of 'get out of my @£$!$! way!, yes you with the 200mm !' - Not worthy

Flags, ladders. The tartan thermos flask I saw being thrown at another last year. :wall: Shouting the law according to themselves either here or at airshows. Only to be outed as a hypocrite :whistle:

Some people do seriously need to take a step back and have a very good look at themselves in a mirror. Frankly, I strongly suspect they'll see want they want to see. :clown:

1996, I believe UKAR had its first finger print here, with Paul 'Big Cheese' steering the ship. Somewhere in the last 10 or so years the advent of the 'keyboard warrior' has risen. The oracles of aviation have waved the Holly Grail of "I know it all'

Whatever happened to memorable banter and a place to share and enjoy our hobby. Thats is what is it is, all it is, nothing more! :surrender:

Sad state of affairs. I do fear where the next group of enthusisats will be in 10 years time.

Ps See you at Totterdown next year :win: . . . . . . :ninja:
Vodka

Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby DonaldGrump on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 1:33 pm

Vodka wrote:Good God! you would never think we here, share the same passion for aviation ? :dizzy:

Reading the comments in this thread is nothing shy of kids, I mean 6 year olds! Arguing in a primary school playground about utter tosh they think they're 'All knowing' about.

' My Dad is bigger than your dad!'.. really! 'My wanger is bigger than yours. . . '

A day in P&V East is enough of a reminder where people are in life. 500mm being slung around as if they're in 'The Stan'. . Wearing Tactical outerwear?
Only thing to be protected from is the verbal tirade of 'get out of my @£$!$! way!, yes you with the 200mm !' - Not worthy

Flags, ladders. The tartan thermos flask I saw being thrown at another last year. :wall: Shouting the law according to themselves either here or at airshows. Only to be outed as a hypocrite :whistle:

Some people do seriously need to take a step back and have a very good look at themselves in a mirror. Frankly, I strongly suspect they'll see want they want to see. :clown:

1996, I believe UKAR had its first finger print here, with Paul 'Big Cheese' steering the ship. Somewhere in the last 10 or so years the advent of the 'keyboard warrior' has risen. The oracles of aviation have waved the Holly Grail of "I know it all'

Whatever happened to memorable banter and a place to share and enjoy our hobby. Thats is what is it is, all it is, nothing more! :surrender:

Sad state of affairs. I do fear where the next group of enthusisats will be in 10 years time.

Ps See you at Totterdown next year :win: . . . . . . :ninja:




Without any shadow of doubt one of the finest posts ever made on this forum.
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Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby Canon on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 1:42 pm

2E0TVR wrote:
Canon wrote:You wouldn't like it if I stood in front of you and waved a massive flag in front of your camera, so don't do it to others.



I feel the same about photographers when they start waving their big lenses in front of me, blocking my view.

PS. Didn't see any flags on poles...they must have been behind me.


As DerekF has said, a camera and lens is an item that is expected to be at an airshow, chances are if you're behind my camera and lens then that means you arrived later than me, so thats your own fault :whistle:
A flag pole on the other hand serves no purpose and no one gains anything from it being there. In fact everyone loses from it being there during the show. Put it up before/ after the show if you want. but during the show keep it down.
Must remember to take some kind of cutters with me next year for any flag poles that end up in my shots :ninja:
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Re: Is Totterdown bad for RIAT

Postby Canon on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 1:47 pm

Surely queuing cars at the runway approach should be considered more dangerous than Totterdown? They're actually customers of RIAT, and if a plane was to crash at the end of the runway then it would be entirely the organisers fault. If Shuttleworth have to close their small country lane outside, and if Duxford have to close grange road, then surely RIAT has to close that road too? :cuppa:
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