Trump alert

Re: Trump alert

Postby Wissam24 on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 11:57 am

Because the Americans are hugely paranoid and always insist on more security than is ever reasonable? They demand armed guards for aircraft in the static park, I dread to think what they would demand (of our police forces and resources, of course) for their baby-in-chief
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Re: Trump alert

Postby pbeardmore on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 12:19 pm

if they stayed airside, surrounded by their own service personel, I would have thought that would be more secure than any civilian drinks party?
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Re: Trump alert

Postby Brevet Cable on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 12:23 pm

Wissam24 wrote:Because the Americans are hugely paranoid and always insist on more security than is ever reasonable? They demand armed guards for aircraft in the static park, I dread to think what they would demand (of our police forces and resources, of course) for their baby-in-chief


:up:
The 2-day NATO Summit cost over £20 million ( some sources claim almost £25 million ) to police and had a Police presence of around 10,000 ( yes, ten thousand ! ) with many of the forces throughout the Country being denuded to supply the required number of bodies.
Oh, and not to mention the fact that Cardiff & Newport were pretty much fenced off ( something like 12 miles of fencing ) starting several weeks before the Summit took place.
Most of this was because of the presence of the POTUS.....funnily enough, despite the number of delegates staying in the Hilton Hotel, most of the Police presence disappeared when Obama wasn't in Cardiff.
Much like the fact that most of the other delegates flew in to Cardiff Airport, except for the Americans who deemed it necessary to land at Fairford instead.

Various members of the Royal Family have done official and semi-official visits to Cardiff & other parts of Wales, usually with very little in the way of extra Police presence.
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Re: Trump alert

Postby chrisward123 on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 12:26 pm

Trump attending the Worlds Largest Military Airshow… surely not! :grin:
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Re: Trump alert

Postby CJS on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 12:49 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:
Wissam24 wrote:Because the Americans are hugely paranoid and always insist on more security than is ever reasonable? They demand armed guards for aircraft in the static park, I dread to think what they would demand (of our police forces and resources, of course) for their baby-in-chief


:up:
The 2-day NATO Summit cost over £20 million ( some sources claim almost £25 million ) to police and had a Police presence of around 10,000 ( yes, ten thousand ! ) with many of the forces throughout the Country being denuded to supply the required number of bodies.
Oh, and not to mention the fact that Cardiff & Newport were pretty much fenced off ( something like 12 miles of fencing ) starting several weeks before the Summit took place.
Most of this was because of the presence of the POTUS.....funnily enough, despite the number of delegates staying in the Hilton Hotel, most of the Police presence disappeared when Obama wasn't in Cardiff.
Much like the fact that most of the other delegates flew in to Cardiff Airport, except for the Americans who deemed it necessary to land at Fairford instead.

Various members of the Royal Family have done official and semi-official visits to Cardiff & other parts of Wales, usually with very little in the way of extra Police presence.


Quite right BC, more evidence of the US just thinking they're better than everybody else for no reason other than they're have the biggest egos and smallest IQs*. It's not exactly an endearing quality is it?

*sweeping generalisation alert
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Re: Trump alert

Postby verreli on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 1:26 pm

CJS wrote:
Brevet Cable wrote:
Wissam24 wrote:Because the Americans are hugely paranoid and always insist on more security than is ever reasonable? They demand armed guards for aircraft in the static park, I dread to think what they would demand (of our police forces and resources, of course) for their baby-in-chief


:up:
The 2-day NATO Summit cost over £20 million ( some sources claim almost £25 million ) to police and had a Police presence of around 10,000 ( yes, ten thousand ! ) with many of the forces throughout the Country being denuded to supply the required number of bodies.
Oh, and not to mention the fact that Cardiff & Newport were pretty much fenced off ( something like 12 miles of fencing ) starting several weeks before the Summit took place.
Most of this was because of the presence of the POTUS.....funnily enough, despite the number of delegates staying in the Hilton Hotel, most of the Police presence disappeared when Obama wasn't in Cardiff.
Much like the fact that most of the other delegates flew in to Cardiff Airport, except for the Americans who deemed it necessary to land at Fairford instead.

Various members of the Royal Family have done official and semi-official visits to Cardiff & other parts of Wales, usually with very little in the way of extra Police presence.


Quite right BC, more evidence of the US just thinking they're better than everybody else for no reason other than they're have the biggest egos and smallest IQs*. It's not exactly an endearing quality is it?

*sweeping generalisation alert


OK, let's analyse what you've just quoted...

A police officer is on about 40k pa which is about £170 per day. If there were 10,000 officers that's only £1.7m per day. 2 days = 3.4m - A few days prep (not all would be needed) and it's still going to come in under £5m. Hold on though, most would be employed anyway so the headline cost is misleading and the addition cost is likely to be far far less.

As for the fencing, you can get a 3.4m wide by 2m high temporary panel for £17.74. 12 miles is 19,312m so you'd need 5680 panels which is only just over £100k. Add 44k for the feet. That's if you bought them new, i.e. not rented or have previously purchased them.

Do you really believe everything you read without question?
verreli

Re: Trump alert

Postby Brevet Cable on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 2:14 pm

You didn't see the fencing they erected in and around Cardiff, then ( last heard it had been given to the French to use in Calais ) ?
It was a bit more sophisticated that a sections of bog-standard harris fencing.
Here ya go....plenty of images of it here : https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=2014+nato+summit+fence&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjE4oW38t_bAhWLVxQKHf2zAu8Q_AUICygC&biw=1920&bih=968

The figures published by the FCO state that the overall cost of the Summit was over £81 million.
As for the accuracy of the policing costs, how about from the horses mouth :
http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/NEWS/11625873.Nato_summit_cost_Gwent_Police___22_million/
THE Nato Summit in Newport cost Gwent Police £22 million to facilitate, most of which has been recovered from the Home Office.

Police and Crime Commissioner Ian Johnston told a strategy and performance board meeting yesterday that he was “optimistic” that the summit, held in September at the Celtic Manor Resort, will not cost the force anything.

Assistant chief officer of resources Nigel Stephens said: “Nato cost this organisation £22 million of which the Home Office, by and large, has funded.”
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Re: Trump alert

Postby Ouragan on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 6:00 pm

verreli wrote:Why would general security be any worse than for the royal review?


Because this is the President of the United States we are talking about, and the US Secret Service will do as they want things to be done. No argument. DBH, the MoD or anyone else will not have a say. And if they want a two hour no-fly window either side of his arrival they will have it. If they want one end of the showground cleared while he is there they will get it. Or any other demand.

I hope he will find something else to do. Maybe he could go to the American Air Museum at Duxford?
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Re: Trump alert

Postby CJS on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 6:39 pm

CJS wrote:
Quite right BC, more evidence of the US just thinking they're better than everybody else for no reason other than they're have the biggest egos and smallest IQs*. It's not exactly an endearing quality is it?

*sweeping generalisation alert


I'll just leave this here again :-p
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Re: Trump alert

Postby play it cool on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 6:42 pm

Ouragan wrote:
verreli wrote:Why would general security be any worse than for the royal review?


Because this is the President of the United States we are talking about, and the US Secret Service will do as they want things to be done. No argument. DBH, the MoD or anyone else will not have a say. And if they want a two hour no-fly window either side of his arrival they will have it. If they want one end of the showground cleared while he is there they will get it. Or any other demand.


You honestly think DBH would agree to that? It’s their show, not his.
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Re: Trump alert

Postby verreli on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 7:13 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:You didn't see the fencing...


There doesn't seem to be much complexity with that fence although the cost will be more than the one I quoted. A quick search and I found something similar for triple the cost of the one I originally quoted but it still comes to less than £1m total cost.

As for the rest of the cost, what's it being spent on? I think you're being taken for a politically motivated ride.

Edit: I did a bit of digging on the cost. This is how they managed to get the figure so high... The police force is publicly funded from the govt via your taxes. Lets say an officer costs 170 per day in his wages. For this event the Force sold back the Police officers to govt as a service for a multiple of the cost of employment - lets say 1000 per day. So 10,000 officers at 1000 is 10m per day. So you the taxpayer paid c.1170 for the officers for the day to the Police force but it actually didn't cost any more. i.e accountancy shenanigans.
Last edited by verreli on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
verreli

Re: Trump alert

Postby verreli on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 7:20 pm

Ouragan wrote:
verreli wrote:Why would general security be any worse than for the royal review?


Because this is the President of the United States we are talking about, and the US Secret Service will do as they want things to be done. No argument. DBH, the MoD or anyone else will not have a say. And if they want a two hour no-fly window either side of his arrival they will have it. If they want one end of the showground cleared while he is there they will get it. Or any other demand.

I hope he will find something else to do. Maybe he could go to the American Air Museum at Duxford?


Yes, US secret service would do their thing but that's their job. Fairford is a US military base which until the general public are allowed on site (after checks) is secure. Just what do you think they do extra? Even Kim took a sightseeing trip in downtown Singapore last week and his detail made the US Presidential security look positively casual.
verreli

Re: Trump alert

Postby Ewart on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 8:00 pm

Paul_Reflex wrote:I'm not sure that I could attend an event of any sort if Trump was to be invited. If we knew which day it was he was attending I would just not go that day, but if that wasn't known I think I would very sadly leave my FRIAT seat unoccupied for the week and stay at home. .


Well if I can get on a course at work the week before RIAT, I may get the weekend off and I'll happily have your FRIAT ticket off you!

Just see it as an experiance, wear a Obama change t-shirt or an 'I voted Clinton' one.
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Re: Trump alert

Postby Tommy on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 8:13 pm

If this does happen, and isn't just tabloid puff, it'll be great to see the Russian delegation attend after some years of absence.
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Re: Trump alert

Postby Airshowhammer on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 8:24 pm

Paul_Reflex wrote:I'm not sure that I could attend an event of any sort if Trump was to be invited. If we knew which day it was he was attending I would just not go that day, but if that wasn't known I think I would very sadly leave my FRIAT seat unoccupied for the week and stay at home.


Get a grip. :roll:
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Re: Trump alert

Postby verreli on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 8:29 pm

Paul_Reflex wrote:I'm not sure that I could attend an event of any sort if Trump was to be invited. If we knew which day it was he was attending I would just not go that day, but if that wasn't known I think I would very sadly leave my FRIAT seat unoccupied for the week and stay at home. .


Just curious; is it a proximity thing? You can still go to RIAT and be over a mile away from him at any time. Is that any different from 50 miles or indeed 3775 to the White House. Please explain, I really don't understand the mindset but recognise that he sure does stir emotion.
verreli

Re: Trump alert

Postby CJS on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 9:08 pm

verreli wrote:
Ouragan wrote:
verreli wrote:Why would general security be any worse than for the royal review?


Because this is the President of the United States we are talking about, and the US Secret Service will do as they want things to be done. No argument. DBH, the MoD or anyone else will not have a say. And if they want a two hour no-fly window either side of his arrival they will have it. If they want one end of the showground cleared while he is there they will get it. Or any other demand.

I hope he will find something else to do. Maybe he could go to the American Air Museum at Duxford?


Yes, US secret service would do their thing but that's their job. Fairford is a US military base which until the general public are allowed on site (after checks) is secure. Just what do you think they do extra? Even Kim took a sightseeing trip in downtown Singapore last week and his detail made the US Presidential security look positively casual.


Does the fact that the base is owned by the MOD and remains RAF Fairford (although I of course know it's operated currently by the USAF) make any difference to security arrangements as opposed to an American owned base or I've in the states itself?
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Re: Trump alert

Postby Ouragan on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 9:28 pm

play it cool wrote:
Ouragan wrote:
verreli wrote:Why would general security be any worse than for the royal review?


Because this is the President of the United States we are talking about, and the US Secret Service will do as they want things to be done. No argument. DBH, the MoD or anyone else will not have a say. And if they want a two hour no-fly window either side of his arrival they will have it. If they want one end of the showground cleared while he is there they will get it. Or any other demand.


You honestly think DBH would agree to that? It’s their show, not his.


I honestly think they would not get much of a say if he decided to come.
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Re: Trump alert

Postby Wissam24 on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 9:28 pm

Tommy wrote:If this does happen, and isn't just tabloid puff, it'll be great to see the Russian delegation attend after some years of absence.


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Re: Trump alert

Postby Paul_Reflex on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 9:31 pm

verreli wrote:
Paul_Reflex wrote:I'm not sure that I could attend an event of any sort if Trump was to be invited. If we knew which day it was he was attending I would just not go that day, but if that wasn't known I think I would very sadly leave my FRIAT seat unoccupied for the week and stay at home. .


Just curious; is it a proximity thing? You can still go to RIAT and be over a mile away from him at any time. Is that any different from 50 miles or indeed 3775 to the White House. Please explain, I really don't understand the mindset but recognise that he sure does stir emotion.


It's obviously not the proximity, except in the sense that I have no wish to be part of the background for his particular brand of public relations. I'm sure you can think of events you'd rather not be apart of.
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Re: Trump alert

Postby verreli on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 10:05 pm

Paul_Reflex wrote:I'm sure you can think of events you'd rather not be apart of.


Well, the Chelsea flower show isn't really my kind of thing but I have to say, no politicians presence would prevent me doing something I enjoy. I think the saying is 'to cut off your nose to spite your face'.
verreli

Re: Trump alert

Postby Go4Long on Wed 20 Jun 2018, 1:34 am

Paul_Reflex wrote:
verreli wrote:
Paul_Reflex wrote:I'm not sure that I could attend an event of any sort if Trump was to be invited. If we knew which day it was he was attending I would just not go that day, but if that wasn't known I think I would very sadly leave my FRIAT seat unoccupied for the week and stay at home. .


Just curious; is it a proximity thing? You can still go to RIAT and be over a mile away from him at any time. Is that any different from 50 miles or indeed 3775 to the White House. Please explain, I really don't understand the mindset but recognise that he sure does stir emotion.


It's obviously not the proximity, except in the sense that I have no wish to be part of the background for his particular brand of public relations. I'm sure you can think of events you'd rather not be apart of.


That'll show him. He'll be the leader of the free world...but he'll be hurt by your lack of attendance. :clap:
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Re: Trump alert

Postby Paul_Reflex on Wed 20 Jun 2018, 5:55 am

Go4Long wrote:
Paul_Reflex wrote:
verreli wrote:
Paul_Reflex wrote:I'm not sure that I could attend an event of any sort if Trump was to be invited. If we knew which day it was he was attending I would just not go that day, but if that wasn't known I think I would very sadly leave my FRIAT seat unoccupied for the week and stay at home. .


Just curious; is it a proximity thing? You can still go to RIAT and be over a mile away from him at any time. Is that any different from 50 miles or indeed 3775 to the White House. Please explain, I really don't understand the mindset but recognise that he sure does stir emotion.




It's obviously not the proximity, except in the sense that I have no wish to be part of the background for his particular brand of public relations. I'm sure you can think of events you'd rather not be apart of.


That'll show him. He'll be the leader of the free world...but he'll be hurt by your lack of attendance. :clap:


Firstly, he's not the leader of the free world. He's no-one's leader outside of the USA. Secondly, it's not in my power to hurt him, I'm not in his constituency.

I really don't understand why it's such a hard concept for people to grasp. I would not boycott RIAT expecting it to have ant affect on the situation at all. It would simply be that I wouldn't want to be a part of his state visit in any way.

You can all mock me all you want, but I hope that deep down there are some things which you care about too which influence your behaviour, even if your behaviour alone doesn't make any difference in the grand scheme of things.
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Re: Trump alert

Postby Wissam24 on Wed 20 Jun 2018, 6:49 am

I guess people here don't have a concept of "principles"
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Re: Trump alert

Postby chrisward123 on Wed 20 Jun 2018, 7:36 am

Paul,
Last year I wasn't too keen on the Israeli Hercules attending, I didn't go over to them and simply walked past.
You can argue that the Israelis didn't confirm attendance in the public eye, but I didn't spit my dummy out just because they were there, I just ignored it and enjoyed the rest of the show.

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