Lakenheath "Field" Interview!
Lakenheath "Field" Interview!
Evening,
Just returned from a pleasent day at LN (F15's, Alpha Jets, C17's (photo's later)) that was slightly tainted by a brush with the USAF Security infrastructure. Had been down at the woodland gate all day but decided to swap to the 06 end to take some shots of the returning F15's. Now this is a spot of used before and was actually suggested to me by Suffork Constabulary as a suitable spot. Got their went right to the fence, took a couple of shots of a departing pair of F15c's and then retired at least 100m back down the foot path. About 15-mins later my friend spotted a blue pickup and asked if that was security, I took a look throught the 400mm and it was. About 5-mins later there was shouting from the fence. I looked around and there was 1 MP shouting and waving at the fence (about 150m away). I walked over and noticed the other MP "covering" the first from behind the pickup. The conversation went something like this (and yes all sides kept it very civil):
MP1: How you doing today?
Me: Fine thank you.
MP1: You are aware that you are not allowed to take photo's of the base aircraft outside of the approved viewing area?
Me: Err, No. I'm well away from the fence, on a public footpath at a spot Suffork Constabulary said was ok - whats wrong with that?
MP1: Its not allowed. I need to take some details of you.
Me: What do you need the details for?
MP1: I've been instructed to conduct a field interview of you. Can you show me some photo id please?
Me: Sorry no, this is England we don't have photo id. I've got a business card if you like
(hands that over - MP1 starts writing my details, MP2 wonders over)
MP2: Everything OK?
MP1: Sure there just taking photo's.
MP2: Hi, You are aware that you are not allowed to take photo's of the base aircraft outside of the approved viewing area?
MP1: Yes, I told them that but they say they are on a public footpath at a spot Suffork Constabulary said was ok
Me: Look, we just want to take the 4 returning F15's then we are out of here, is that OK?
MP2: I radio the request into the watch commander and explain what you have said (he does)
WC: Negative, instruct them that they are not allowed to take photo's of the base aircraft outside of the approved viewing area.
Me: OK where do we go from here?
MP2: We'll I can get the watch commander out here to tell you in person and he'll involve the UK Police if need be.
Me: That's going to help no one, we'll move back along the footpath, OK?
MP2: Thanks very much, we are just obeying orders.
MP1: Yah and thanks for co-operating, not running and not swearing at us!
Clearly I backed down as it was not worth ruining everybodies day for a couple of shots of the base F15's. However, I honestly don't think I had done anything wrong (at least in USAF terms - might have been slightly off the footpath) and statements such as "You are aware that you are not allowed to take photo's of the base aircraft outside of the approved viewing area" (and that is verbatum) is not exactly helpful. Clearly if thats true if you boys catch a F15 in Cad you had better delete it
Whats the Forum think?
Just returned from a pleasent day at LN (F15's, Alpha Jets, C17's (photo's later)) that was slightly tainted by a brush with the USAF Security infrastructure. Had been down at the woodland gate all day but decided to swap to the 06 end to take some shots of the returning F15's. Now this is a spot of used before and was actually suggested to me by Suffork Constabulary as a suitable spot. Got their went right to the fence, took a couple of shots of a departing pair of F15c's and then retired at least 100m back down the foot path. About 15-mins later my friend spotted a blue pickup and asked if that was security, I took a look throught the 400mm and it was. About 5-mins later there was shouting from the fence. I looked around and there was 1 MP shouting and waving at the fence (about 150m away). I walked over and noticed the other MP "covering" the first from behind the pickup. The conversation went something like this (and yes all sides kept it very civil):
MP1: How you doing today?
Me: Fine thank you.
MP1: You are aware that you are not allowed to take photo's of the base aircraft outside of the approved viewing area?
Me: Err, No. I'm well away from the fence, on a public footpath at a spot Suffork Constabulary said was ok - whats wrong with that?
MP1: Its not allowed. I need to take some details of you.
Me: What do you need the details for?
MP1: I've been instructed to conduct a field interview of you. Can you show me some photo id please?
Me: Sorry no, this is England we don't have photo id. I've got a business card if you like
(hands that over - MP1 starts writing my details, MP2 wonders over)
MP2: Everything OK?
MP1: Sure there just taking photo's.
MP2: Hi, You are aware that you are not allowed to take photo's of the base aircraft outside of the approved viewing area?
MP1: Yes, I told them that but they say they are on a public footpath at a spot Suffork Constabulary said was ok
Me: Look, we just want to take the 4 returning F15's then we are out of here, is that OK?
MP2: I radio the request into the watch commander and explain what you have said (he does)
WC: Negative, instruct them that they are not allowed to take photo's of the base aircraft outside of the approved viewing area.
Me: OK where do we go from here?
MP2: We'll I can get the watch commander out here to tell you in person and he'll involve the UK Police if need be.
Me: That's going to help no one, we'll move back along the footpath, OK?
MP2: Thanks very much, we are just obeying orders.
MP1: Yah and thanks for co-operating, not running and not swearing at us!
Clearly I backed down as it was not worth ruining everybodies day for a couple of shots of the base F15's. However, I honestly don't think I had done anything wrong (at least in USAF terms - might have been slightly off the footpath) and statements such as "You are aware that you are not allowed to take photo's of the base aircraft outside of the approved viewing area" (and that is verbatum) is not exactly helpful. Clearly if thats true if you boys catch a F15 in Cad you had better delete it
Whats the Forum think?
Cheers Simon
You can't beat a good Canon shot
You can't beat a good Canon shot
Re: Lakenheath "Field" Interview!
This is the second time I've heard this sort of story from LN, and it is most perplexing. You'd think US personnal on a base in a friendly country would be a little more accomodating, I guess not. As for the not taking photos offbase, well that's quite frankly bizzare, as as I understand it the OSA (OK not strictly relevant I know, but for the sake of comparison) forbids taking photos of the base, but aircraft off base are fair game.
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Re: Lakenheath "Field" Interview!
Myself and a few other UKAR members had a brief 'run in' with the LN USAF MPs once where they basically lied to the local Police by calling them out saying that we were refusing to move on (from a public footpath) despite the fact that the cowards never even got out of their massive Police car.
Still, they've got to do something to keep themselves occupied all day I guess. If they don't look busy then someone might realise they're not required.
Still, they've got to do something to keep themselves occupied all day I guess. If they don't look busy then someone might realise they're not required.
Peter Clements,
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Re: Lakenheath "Field" Interview!
They can't move you, if you are public/private land, ie outside the base only the civil police can ask you to move. Had this at Alconbury once(many years ago) the USAF coppers wanted me to move, asked them to call the local plod. Explained all this to the civil plod, they went to fence and basically told them to 'go away and stop causing harassment'.
Belive MOD Police can move you on but not forces police.
USAF Police at LN have gone overboard a few times, I used to live in LN village and after finishing my very late shift at Honington was followed thro the village by a suspect looking car. As this was at the time of the IRA, doing some nasties, I got the car reg and phoned local civil plod. The car was a USAF unmarked police car and they had been told about over stepping the mark before.
Belive MOD Police can move you on but not forces police.
USAF Police at LN have gone overboard a few times, I used to live in LN village and after finishing my very late shift at Honington was followed thro the village by a suspect looking car. As this was at the time of the IRA, doing some nasties, I got the car reg and phoned local civil plod. The car was a USAF unmarked police car and they had been told about over stepping the mark before.
Re: Lakenheath "Field" Interview!
Like Pete says, sounds like they're bored senseless. I wouldn't worry.
Re: Lakenheath "Field" Interview!
SCARECROW 451 wrote:They can't move you, if you are public/private land, ie outside the base only the civil police can ask you to move. Had this at Alconbury once(many years ago) the USAF coppers wanted me to move, asked them to call the local plod. Explained all this to the civil plod, they went to fence and basically told them to 'go away and stop causing harassment'.
Belive MOD Police can move you on but not forces police.
USAF Police at LN have gone overboard a few times, I used to live in LN village and after finishing my very late shift at Honington was followed thro the village by a suspect looking car. As this was at the time of the IRA, doing some nasties, I got the car reg and phoned local civil plod. The car was a USAF unmarked police car and they had been told about over stepping the mark before.
Yeah this is what I'd think too, I guess it's just how far you want to push it for the sake of a couple of Eagles. It must be very annoying, but I certainly wouldn't fancy taking them on. I'd think a letter to the base CO or their RAF contact might offer more of a return?
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Re: Lakenheath "Field" Interview!
RAF Police tried to move me on at Odiham and Marham once(not on the same day though) and I just asked them to get the civil plods. They soon changed their minds, just did'nt let on I was in the mob as well but their powers stop at the main gate, even to RAF members.
Re: Lakenheath "Field" Interview!
I was at the Lakenheath viewing area a couple of weeks ago,security was patrolling regularly past us.I think its great they provide the viewing area,wish they would have one at RAF Marham up the road.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=956M7TRbrfY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=956M7TRbrfY
Re: Lakenheath "Field" Interview!
Thanks for the comments guys - killed the self doubt dead. The MP's were polite (unlike the ones you mentioned ) but were clearly overstepping the mark. Could not see the point in involving local plod to be honest as it seemed like a waste of time.
Cheers Simon
You can't beat a good Canon shot
You can't beat a good Canon shot
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Re: Lakenheath "Field" Interview!
As with other posters I would be interested to know on which grounds the police could demand your name and move you on if push come to shove. Can I commend your sensible attitude to the circumstances. I have no doubt that had this incident occured to certain other readers of this board (mentioning no names) it would have ended differently followed by postings on here about how rude and heavy handed the authorities were.
Re: Lakenheath "Field" Interview!
Certainly sounds like a case of boredom or box ticking for this months personal development folder subject.
All kept calm and amiccable just as it should be.
On the scale of such encounters you do hear of very few incidents like this around military installations, which i guess reflects on the general good behaviour of hobbyists.
All kept calm and amiccable just as it should be.
On the scale of such encounters you do hear of very few incidents like this around military installations, which i guess reflects on the general good behaviour of hobbyists.
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Re: Lakenheath "Field" Interview!
*Rubs hands* Where do I start
Firstly you did the right thing by cooperating with the base Police. We all know that confrontation with authority usually results in a clampdown of some sorts. Which would probably impact on this hobby for most of us.
Secondly you were right to point out that you were on a public footpath in YOUR country obeying OUR laws.
But more importantly than both of these....you were polite Nobody's back up, no hassle, all sorted out amicably.
I was in a situation at Langley a couple of years ago with the FBI ( regular board viewers yawn) We were guests in THERE country and found that our attitude helped smooth things out a great deal. Have respect for the law and smile at the nice man with the uniform on
As has been pointed out jobsworths they may be but if they go away having seen to be justifying their existence, then we are all Happy Bunnys
Firstly you did the right thing by cooperating with the base Police. We all know that confrontation with authority usually results in a clampdown of some sorts. Which would probably impact on this hobby for most of us.
Secondly you were right to point out that you were on a public footpath in YOUR country obeying OUR laws.
But more importantly than both of these....you were polite Nobody's back up, no hassle, all sorted out amicably.
I was in a situation at Langley a couple of years ago with the FBI ( regular board viewers yawn) We were guests in THERE country and found that our attitude helped smooth things out a great deal. Have respect for the law and smile at the nice man with the uniform on
As has been pointed out jobsworths they may be but if they go away having seen to be justifying their existence, then we are all Happy Bunnys
Re: Lakenheath "Field" Interview!
You only have to listen to this clip to see that they get twitchy when people go spotting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBD0WkYp_5Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBD0WkYp_5Y
Re: Lakenheath "Field" Interview!
"We're all spotters"....them sounds like fighting words to me
Agdickie on Airliners.net
Hey jet pilots! Do a barrell roll!
Hey jet pilots! Do a barrell roll!
Re: Lakenheath "Field" Interview!
SCARECROW 451 wrote:RAF Police tried to move me on at Odiham and Marham once(not on the same day though) and I just asked them to get the civil plods. They soon changed their minds, just did'nt let on I was in the mob as well but their powers stop at the main gate, even to RAF members.
Incorrect, their powers stop when the service's interests stop, whether that's personnel or the protection of service assets, not at the gate. They can also respond to civil issues on the request of the local constabulary.
Re: Lakenheath "Field" Interview!
Sounds like you ran into some MPs new on the job who have been treated to a good wind-up from their colleagues.
The obvious response to 'you are not allowed to take photos...' is to say 'Sorry but you're wrong. This is the United Kingdom - not the United States - and we have no such law. Feel free to enquire with our local police if you want proof. Now if you'll excuse me I've got to get a shot of this F-15 that's coming in without an emergency - it's the first one I've seen for ages that hasn't got bits falling off of it.'
Your 'cooperation' only means they will try it on again with somebody else and sooner or later that'll be me
The obvious response to 'you are not allowed to take photos...' is to say 'Sorry but you're wrong. This is the United Kingdom - not the United States - and we have no such law. Feel free to enquire with our local police if you want proof. Now if you'll excuse me I've got to get a shot of this F-15 that's coming in without an emergency - it's the first one I've seen for ages that hasn't got bits falling off of it.'
Your 'cooperation' only means they will try it on again with somebody else and sooner or later that'll be me
Re: Lakenheath "Field" Interview!
DamienB wrote: Now if you'll excuse me I've got to get a shot of this F-15 that's coming in without an emergency - it's the first one I've seen for ages that hasn't got bits falling off of it.'
Someone actually commented on the same thing round the fence yesterday. They actually did very well, 12 sorties, no emergencies, although one of them had to have 5 attempts to land it back on the runway
Cheers Simon
You can't beat a good Canon shot
You can't beat a good Canon shot
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Re: Lakenheath "Field" Interview!
Incorrect, their powers stop when the service's interests stop,
The RAFP have no powers over RAF personnel outside, ie not on a RAF base. They do not have the full powers that MP'S(redcaps) or MOD Plods have. The RAF police also do not have powers over civilians on a RAF base, as a few years back on guard training if any protesters scaled the fence they were to be 'detained for you own safety' til the civ plods arrived.
Re: Lakenheath "Field" Interview!
Scarecrow
Yes, RAFP do have the same powers as RMP, and so do the RN Police(including RM Police). They always have done.
It is reinforced in the latest armed forced discipline act, that refers to 'Service Police' when confering powers, and defines them as the above groups.
They also have the same powers as any member of the public, which means they can prevent you from committing an arrestable offence. Offences under the OSA are arrestable offences. That power also applies to people who are not citizens of the UK, and therefore also applies to the USAF Police.
Viper
Like it or not, you did do something wrong, if I have read your post correctly, you took a photo of the inside of the station. As such, yes, they can ask you about it. If they were feeling that arsey, they could have got Suffolk Pol or the MOD Pol involved and insisted they do something, clearly they didn't. Again, like it or not that OSA does apply to ALL service establishments, and just because it's not enforced in some places it doesn't mean it can't or wont be at others.
Yes, RAFP do have the same powers as RMP, and so do the RN Police(including RM Police). They always have done.
It is reinforced in the latest armed forced discipline act, that refers to 'Service Police' when confering powers, and defines them as the above groups.
They also have the same powers as any member of the public, which means they can prevent you from committing an arrestable offence. Offences under the OSA are arrestable offences. That power also applies to people who are not citizens of the UK, and therefore also applies to the USAF Police.
Viper
Like it or not, you did do something wrong, if I have read your post correctly, you took a photo of the inside of the station. As such, yes, they can ask you about it. If they were feeling that arsey, they could have got Suffolk Pol or the MOD Pol involved and insisted they do something, clearly they didn't. Again, like it or not that OSA does apply to ALL service establishments, and just because it's not enforced in some places it doesn't mean it can't or wont be at others.
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Re: Lakenheath "Field" Interview!
Well unless you are a current serving RAFP with 25 years service ,and still in, who told me this morning the opposite of what you say, I bow to your knowledge !!
To quote my mate,
'We do not have the powers to move you on however we can advise to move on for your own safety depending on where you are.'
Note the words 'we do not have the powers' and 'advise'.
As during my 12 years in the RAF, all RAFP told me the same thing. They(RAFP) do not have the same powers as MP's.
Its just some RAFP think they are more powerful then they are. Think these yanks thought the same.
To quote my mate,
'We do not have the powers to move you on however we can advise to move on for your own safety depending on where you are.'
Note the words 'we do not have the powers' and 'advise'.
As during my 12 years in the RAF, all RAFP told me the same thing. They(RAFP) do not have the same powers as MP's.
Its just some RAFP think they are more powerful then they are. Think these yanks thought the same.
Re: Lakenheath "Field" Interview!
Scarecrow.
First read the armed forces discipline act 2006.
Here's the link,
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2006/uk ... 2_en_1.htm
but to save you plowing through it...
375 Definitions relating to police forces (1) In this Act “service police force” means—
(a) the Royal Navy Police;
(b) the Royal Military Police; or
(c) the Royal Air Force Police;
and “service policeman” means a member of a service police force.
I note the inclution of Royal Air Force Police. Unless they have changed matters, that means RAFP. All powers in the act are conferred on 'Service Police', not on RMP. RAFP & RMP have always had the same powers, and both have always had the power to act in accordence with the criminal law act and PACE as far as it applies to 'any person'. That is what the public refer to as citizens arrest, and that it says 'any person' means it also applies to the USAF Police. All Service Police, and indeed any person in the UK have a duty to prevent crime.
No, I don't have to be a serviceman to be able to read legislation, and in any event, my father retired as a WO RAFP SI/CI Investigator, so my experience of it goes back over 40 years (we'll ignore my own experience as a Civil Police Officer). If what you claim, is in reality what RAFP have told you, then it's a reflection on them, not fact.
I didn't claim powers to move on, although, clearly if you read the powers that Service Police have, in your case they can, however they do have the power to detain anyone, if they are, or they suspect they are, committing an offence for which any other person could. OSA offences, that means photographing drawing, making models of, entering and a host of other things are such offences. As with any other person detaining someone, they do so pending the arrival of a Constable, who they then hand custody over to.
First read the armed forces discipline act 2006.
Here's the link,
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2006/uk ... 2_en_1.htm
but to save you plowing through it...
375 Definitions relating to police forces (1) In this Act “service police force” means—
(a) the Royal Navy Police;
(b) the Royal Military Police; or
(c) the Royal Air Force Police;
and “service policeman” means a member of a service police force.
I note the inclution of Royal Air Force Police. Unless they have changed matters, that means RAFP. All powers in the act are conferred on 'Service Police', not on RMP. RAFP & RMP have always had the same powers, and both have always had the power to act in accordence with the criminal law act and PACE as far as it applies to 'any person'. That is what the public refer to as citizens arrest, and that it says 'any person' means it also applies to the USAF Police. All Service Police, and indeed any person in the UK have a duty to prevent crime.
No, I don't have to be a serviceman to be able to read legislation, and in any event, my father retired as a WO RAFP SI/CI Investigator, so my experience of it goes back over 40 years (we'll ignore my own experience as a Civil Police Officer). If what you claim, is in reality what RAFP have told you, then it's a reflection on them, not fact.
I didn't claim powers to move on, although, clearly if you read the powers that Service Police have, in your case they can, however they do have the power to detain anyone, if they are, or they suspect they are, committing an offence for which any other person could. OSA offences, that means photographing drawing, making models of, entering and a host of other things are such offences. As with any other person detaining someone, they do so pending the arrival of a Constable, who they then hand custody over to.
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Re: Lakenheath "Field" Interview!
SCARECROW 451 wrote:The RAF police also do not have powers over civilians on a RAF base
Try telling that to the two RAF police men who stopped me, and I'm a civilian, for a road traffic offence on MoD property and cautioned me and entered my details on their computer for riding my motorbike on a footpath using it as a short cut.
Brian
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Re: Lakenheath "Field" Interview!
Being a WO is bad enough but a snowdrop WO now thats just a hangable offence!
3 Months to go, hopefully he says.
Re: Lakenheath "Field" Interview!
SCARECROW 451 wrote:Incorrect, their powers stop when the service's interests stop,
The RAFP have no powers over RAF personnel outside, ie not on a RAF base. They do not have the full powers that MP'S(redcaps) or MOD Plods have. The RAF police also do not have powers over civilians on a RAF base, as a few years back on guard training if any protesters scaled the fence they were to be 'detained for you own safety' til the civ plods arrived.
Even yourself as a serviceman have the power of arrest over a civilian. You state the case of a protester scaling the fence. Your powers of arrest over that protester, obviously trespassing on MOD property, are contained in the specific JSP card that you carry when you are on guard. RAFP are also governed by that specific JSP in the same circumstance.
TJ
Re: Lakenheath "Field" Interview!
Bjcc wrote:Viper
Like it or not, you did do something wrong, if I have read your post correctly, you took a photo of the inside of the station. As such, yes, they can ask you about it. If they were feeling that arsey, they could have got Suffolk Pol or the MOD Pol involved and insisted they do something, clearly they didn't. Again, like it or not that OSA does apply to ALL service establishments, and just because it's not enforced in some places it doesn't mean it can't or wont be at others.
Hi Bjcc,
In the context that I had taken pictures of aircraft within the bounds of the field fence (both at the 24 and 06 end of the field) then yes I had. So if I understand you correctly that falls fowl of the OSA and hence just about every photographer at any military field in the UK breaks the law every time they visit unless they restrain their photography until the airframe clears the fence in which case they are free game?
If that is the case I have just two questions (asuming that I'm not on the facility and not touching the fence). Who can ask me to stop taking photo's and who can enforce it?
Why do the UK police force allow any person with a camera near the fence and hence prevent the crime?
Cheers Simon
You can't beat a good Canon shot
You can't beat a good Canon shot