P-51 Mustang "Big Beautiful Doll" down - Pilot ok!

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jimbob1194
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Re: P-51 Mustang "Big Beautiful Doll" down - Pilot ok!

Post by jimbob1194 »

UKTopgun wrote:
DamienB wrote:I see the armchair display directors are pontificating here too then...

I don't think that is totally unreasonable, although yes we are probably guilty of being a bit wise after the event.
But Legends always has felt compelled to keep the pace up very high, giving it a lot of appeal undeniably.
But I never mind airshow 'gaps' - they are there for a reason. No one knows what happened here apart from those involved,
and I am not offering any conjecture re that, just that this show does sometimes appear to force the pace, that is all.


That is what makes DX shows brilliant. Constant action. It does work, as shown in the previous shows....

James
The Mustang won't do what a Spitfire does, but it does it over Berlin.

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Re: P-51 Mustang "Big Beautiful Doll" down - Pilot ok!

Post by UKTopgun »

Of course you are right, but it is a balance. Anyone there yesterday saw 1 or 2 things that looked a little 'unplanned' shall we say, that is all.
Wasn't there today so can't comment on that. Of course we all love the dynamic displays... don't get me wrong. I'm sure the AAIB will get to the bottom
of this incident and gladly we are only talking about a lost airframe.

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Re: P-51 Mustang "Big Beautiful Doll" down - Pilot ok!

Post by Hasboman »

I was a Legends today, sitting on the end of the tank bank so I got a pretty good view of what happened....

As you who went to Legends on Saturday will know, after the balbo the aircraft split up into threes and did a flypast before breaking away at the tank bank and going a circuit before landing. This is when the incident took place. I was watching through binoculars while the aircraft broke away. Big Beautiful Doll was flying with the light blue French Skyraider and one other aircraft. After they split I looked away but then saw a large piece of metal falling and smaller other parts in the sky. The French Skyraider lost altitude immediatly and I really though he wasnt going to pull up, the engine was producing more dark smoke than normal. However the pilot regained control and my attention was soon drawn to the Mustang which was now diving fast towards earth. The canopy flew away and the pilot baled out, this parashoot opening (red and white stripes) just above the tree line. The Mustang plowed into the Earth nose first, and a large ball of dust was seen flying away from the crash site. Meanwhile the Skyraider had its gear down and landed slowly heading towards the Land Warfare Hall, only now could I see the 5 foot piece of wing missing. She stopped a few feet from the taxi way - about 100 feet from me. The crowd clapped loudly but the pilot remained in the aircraft and did so for about 15 minutes. About 8 fire engines, police and ambulance rushed across the airfeild towards the crash site, about 2 miles away. The commentators didnt mention the crash, insteed commenting on the aircraft landing. At first I thought it was February who had crashed, but she landed 5 minutes later. I realised it was Big Beautiful Doll. Fragile but Agile circled the crash site which looked as if it had started to burn, for about 5 minutes .A police helicopter arrived an hour later.

From inspecting the damage to the Skyraiders wing, I presume that the Mustang, was had turned hard (I guess to loose airspeed) came up and cut the wing tip off the Skyraider's right wing with its prop. The wing tip must have been the large piece I saw falling and the smaller pieces must have been the prop and parts of the engine cowling?

The commentators announded the crash about 30 minutes later, as many had stayed to hear the news on BBD pilots fate. After a long speech the commentators said he was ok and had walked away from the crash but was going to hospital for check ups. This made the crowd cheer louder than when the Skyraider landed (which was pretty loud).

TFC began to move the Skyraider at about 7pm when I left. A lucky escape indeed!

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Re: P-51 Mustang "Big Beautiful Doll" down - Pilot ok!

Post by jimbob1194 »

UKTopgun wrote:Of course you are right, but it is a balance. Anyone there yesterday saw 1 or 2 things that looked a little 'unplanned' shall we say, that is all.
Wasn't there today so can't comment on that. Of course we all love the dynamic displays... don't get me wrong. I'm sure the AAIB will get to the bottom
of this incident and gladly we are only talking about a lost airframe.


I didn't notice anything really yesterday as I was down the M 11 end right near the ARCo compound. What are you referencing too from yesterday exactly, apart from Dakota Norway taking it a bit too low. That's all I know of, anything else happen mate?

James
The Mustang won't do what a Spitfire does, but it does it over Berlin.

FGR2
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Re: P-51 Mustang "Big Beautiful Doll" down - Pilot ok!

Post by FGR2 »

There are a few photos on Key of the P-51 going down (you'll have to ignore them commenting on our posts though) ;)

It does look like the damage is underneath BBD, just behind the radiator inlet and infront of the tailwheel.

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Re: P-51 Mustang "Big Beautiful Doll" down - Pilot ok!

Post by AMB »

Hasboman wrote:Meanwhile the Skyraider had its gear down and landed slowly heading towards the Land Warfare Hall, only now could I see the 5 foot piece of wing missing. She stopped a few feet from the taxi way - about 100 feet from me. The crowd clapped loudly but the pilot remained in the aircraft and did so for about 15 minutes. About 8 fire engines, police and ambulance rushed across the airfeild towards the crash site, about 2 miles away.


I think 'rushed' is a bit of an overstatement! I was appalled at how long the fire & ambulance vehicles took to react. In fact their whole response was poor today.
When the Fokker Triplane 'nosed over', no one went out to it for ages then as an 'afterthought' the entire Duxford fire complement went out and took ages over this minor incident, blocking off the runway and thus cancelling the P-40s slot. When we had the Skraider/Mustang incident, again they took ages to respond, so much so that the Skyraider pilot(who must have been in shock after his amazing recovery) was totally ignored for about 15 minutes, whilst all the emergency services drove past him to go out to the crashed Mustang in the next field. No one came to see if the Skyraider pilot was okay until finally his own ground crew arrived in a WW2 jeep.
Adrian

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Re: P-51 Mustang "Big Beautiful Doll" down - Pilot ok!

Post by JBartlett »

UKTopgun wrote:
DamienB wrote:I see the armchair display directors are pontificating here too then...

I don't think that is totally unreasonable, although yes we are probably guilty of being a bit wise after the event.
But Legends always has felt compelled to keep the pace up very high, giving it a lot of appeal undeniably.
But I never mind airshow 'gaps' - they are there for a reason. No one knows what happened here apart from those involved,
and I am not offering any conjecture re that, just that this show does sometimes appear to force the pace, that is all.


Maybe they should start at 1300 instead of 1400,

jimbob1194 wrote:
UKTopgun wrote:
DamienB wrote:I see the armchair display directors are pontificating here too then...

I don't think that is totally unreasonable, although yes we are probably guilty of being a bit wise after the event.
But Legends always has felt compelled to keep the pace up very high, giving it a lot of appeal undeniably.
But I never mind airshow 'gaps' - they are there for a reason. No one knows what happened here apart from those involved,
and I am not offering any conjecture re that, just that this show does sometimes appear to force the pace, that is all.


That is what makes DX shows brilliant. Constant action. It does work, as shown in the previous shows....

James


Untill next time we loose another aircraft or someone's life!! Is it not about time that they just let planes take off or land first before letting aircraft start there displays ?!?

James
RIP Red 4, Flight Lieutenant Jon Egging 1978 - 2011
RIP Red 5, Flight Lieutenant Sean Cunningham

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Re: P-51 Mustang "Big Beautiful Doll" down - Pilot ok!

Post by jimbob1194 »

Yes I agree totally about giving time for aircraft to land and take off. Communications just looked poor yesterday with a number of things!

James
The Mustang won't do what a Spitfire does, but it does it over Berlin.

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Re: P-51 Mustang "Big Beautiful Doll" down - Pilot ok!

Post by Tomahawk »

So many 'experts' in just a small forum?

I suggest that anyone who felt that so much 'dangerous' flying (as I've read on another forum but some on here would seem to agree) was going on should formally report it to the authorities and stop speculating in a manner that will make it easier and easier to stop display flying at Duxford i.e. "look, even those who go to the displays think it's dangerous".

There were isolated incidents yesterday, most of which had nothing to do with the 'style' of legends and have been seen at other events. At the end of the day, airshows come with risk for all concerned and whilst it can be minimised, it cannot be eliminated unless everything stays on the ground and in any case the biggest risk due to airshows remains the road journey home or to the hotel or wherever.
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Re: P-51 Mustang "Big Beautiful Doll" down - Pilot ok!

Post by lambo17841 »

Have to agree about things being all of a rush.I am all for a constant action display but things on Sunday were getting a bit tight at times.As has been suggested have the display start a bit earlier may be have something before lunch.I realise the flight walk would have to change but something could be worked out.Have the walk from 10 to 1130,a hour display from 12 to 1,a hour for lunch then 2 to 6 for the main display.
Any thoughts on that.

John in East Sussex

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Re: P-51 Mustang "Big Beautiful Doll" down - Pilot ok!

Post by Tomahawk »

lambo17841 wrote:Have to agree about things being all of a rush.I am all for a constant action display but things on Sunday were getting a bit tight at times.As has been suggested have the display start a bit earlier may be have something before lunch.I realise the flight walk would have to change but something could be worked out.Have the walk from 10 to 1130,a hour display from 12 to 1,a hour for lunch then 2 to 6 for the main display.
Any thoughts on that.

John in East Sussex


Thoughts on that? yes define "all of a rush", I saw a pre-briefed air display designed to give continuous action over a defined period of time.

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Re: P-51 Mustang "Big Beautiful Doll" down - Pilot ok!

Post by Tomahawk »

DanO1978 wrote:Is there a reason for cramming everything into three hours at Duxford? We wondered if it might be something they'd historically agreed with Stansted on show days? Was that why they were so keen to finish on-time yesterday, completely cancelling the P-40s slot?

Flying Legends has enough aircraft there to fill five hours, still at a decent pace. Some displays had woefully short slots. As someone said before, gaps are there for good reason.


Dan,

The display was timed for about 3.5 hrs, not 3. The P-40s were lost due to the Dr1 nose-over, one P40 called critical engine temperatures, was told to hold by Duxford Information and by the time they got back to him the P-40s had all shut down.

Yes legends has enough to fill five hours but I would question the decent pace point. Multiple aircraft take time to position and we would see "large" gaps that would turn one of the best displays in the world into just another boring left-right, next please airshow.

I would also question your previous point on several incidents related to pace. The Sea Fury problem was due to the navy aircraft arriving too early which could happen anywhere, the Skyraider coming in too low was also some thing that has happened at other events and Stephen Grey's landing options were based on feeding him in during the Balbo with the risk of an overshoot accepted every time i.e. take a look, see if it fits and if it doesn't then overshoot. At all times he was in communication with both the ground and Balbo lead.

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Re: P-51 Mustang "Big Beautiful Doll" down - Pilot ok!

Post by romeo bravo »

I agree with Tomahawk on this.

Surely the whole flying program was agreed by the show organisers and pilots alike. The program must have been submitted to all participants prior to the day, so everyone was aware; if anyone had doubts on timings, then the time to raise these should/would have been at the briefing, if not before. If someone had an issue, they had the right of pull out or the organisers had the right to slightly amend the timetable.

If people want to see more flying, then the organisers will have to extend the flying program. Its better to have a couple of minute pause than aircraft on top of each other.

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Re: P-51 Mustang "Big Beautiful Doll" down - Pilot ok!

Post by FlyingMachinesTV »

Plenty of air shows with a slower format have had similar incidents as well, it was nothing to do with the format. Whenever you have aircraft in the sky together there is a risk. The best way to stop this happening would be to not fly them at all.

The format, organisation and safety at Legends is the best I've seen in nearly 20 years of filming air shows around the world. You've all enjoyed the benefits of Legends over the years, some of you "experts" have left it a little late to start the criticism.

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Re: P-51 Mustang "Big Beautiful Doll" down - Pilot ok!

Post by A380FWWOW »

I think we all know that there are lessons to be learn't from Sunday at Duxford, the show did seem very busy, I think that there are experts that will be looking at what has happened and will be coming out with recommendations for future events.
Lets hope that when or if people are approached by the AAIB about what they saw, they state the facts and not comments like 'eight fire engines rushed to the scene' when infact two fire tenders rushed to the scene and 3 fire tenders ambled to the scene.

The AAIB will hopefully now do their job.
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Re: P-51 Mustang "Big Beautiful Doll" down - Pilot ok!

Post by DamienB »

FlyingMachinesTV wrote:Plenty of air shows with a slower format have had similar incidents as well, it was nothing to do with the format. Whenever you have aircraft in the sky together there is a risk. The best way to stop this happening would be to not fly them at all.

The format, organisation and safety at Legends is the best I've seen in nearly 20 years of filming air shows around the world. You've all enjoyed the benefits of Legends over the years, some of you "experts" have left it a little late to start the criticism.


Amen to that. Introducing gaps into a display to calm down a minority of the audience would be insanity.

I would suggest if you find Legends too exciting you stay at home and take up knitting Dan... :dummy:

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Re: P-51 Mustang "Big Beautiful Doll" down - Pilot ok!

Post by UKTopgun »

jimbob1194 wrote:
UKTopgun wrote:Of course you are right, but it is a balance. Anyone there yesterday saw 1 or 2 things that looked a little 'unplanned' shall we say, that is all.
Wasn't there today so can't comment on that. Of course we all love the dynamic displays... don't get me wrong. I'm sure the AAIB will get to the bottom
of this incident and gladly we are only talking about a lost airframe.


I didn't notice anything really yesterday as I was down the M 11 end right near the ARCo compound. What are you referencing too from yesterday exactly, apart from Dakota Norway taking it a bit too low. That's all I know of, anything else happen mate?

James

Think it was a skyraider that appeared to pull hard right onto the 45 having noticed a griffon spit on short finals... not a huge deal but highlights the extra issues involved when flying a condensed display

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Re: P-51 Mustang "Big Beautiful Doll" down - Pilot ok!

Post by pb643 »

FlyingMachinesTV wrote:Plenty of air shows with a slower format have had similar incidents as well, it was nothing to do with the format. Whenever you have aircraft in the sky together there is a risk. The best way to stop this happening would be to not fly them at all.

The format, organisation and safety at Legends is the best I've seen in nearly 20 years of filming air shows around the world. You've all enjoyed the benefits of Legends over the years, some of you "experts" have left it a little late to start the criticism.



In my view Legends provides a level of entertainment that most other big airshows can only dream about.

Long may it continue in its present format.

I hope the the CAA have a somewhat less reactionary approach to things than some of the posts on this board. (feelings of doom, sightings of the grim reaper etc)

Unfortuantely midair collisions are always a possibility whilst there are two people wanting to fly at the same time. I have only ever witnessed one and it was a most unpleasant experience. They happen to the best, see Crete March 2010

Phil
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Re: P-51 Mustang "Big Beautiful Doll" down - Pilot ok!

Post by AMB »

A380FWWOW wrote:I think we all know that there are lessons to be learn't from Sunday at Duxford, the show did seem very busy, I think that there are experts that will be looking at what has happened and will be coming out with recommendations for future events.
Lets hope that when or if people are approached by the AAIB about what they saw, they state the facts and not comments like 'eight fire engines rushed to the scene' when infact two fire tenders rushed to the scene and 3 fire tenders ambled to the scene.

The AAIB will hopefully now do their job.


Quite agree with this. I found the Duxford emergency services responses on Sunday completely lacked urgency or priority and I have to ask what the fire vehicle was doing on the far side of the airfield as it never moved, yet could have been on the scene of the Mustang crash long before any of the other fire vehicles ?
Adrian

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Re: P-51 Mustang "Big Beautiful Doll" down - Pilot ok!

Post by AlexC »

So glad to hear that Rob Davies bailed out safely at such a low altitude. He must have swung just a couple of times on the parachute before landing.
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Re: P-51 Mustang "Big Beautiful Doll" down - Pilot ok!

Post by A380FWWOW »

AlexC wrote:So glad to hear that Rob Davies bailed out safely at such a low altitude. He must have swung just a couple of times on the parachute before landing.

It was a great sight to see that parachute canopy open, he was very low!
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Re: P-51 Mustang "Big Beautiful Doll" down - Pilot ok!

Post by st24 »

DamienB wrote:I would suggest if you find Legends too exciting you stay at home and take up knitting Dan... :dummy:


Obviously legends is only exciting and safe if you are standing under the displays..... :whistle:

That hectic first part is absolutely nothing new if you are a regular "insider" to the show. As has been said, these guys aren't just throwing it together over a quick fag and red bull 10 minutes before they kick the tyres and light the fires. A tragic accident that fortunately ended as it did. No matter how much planning and preparation goes into it, airshows are a risky business. Yes timing is very tight, it always has been and thats what makes it what it is.

There is a video on Youtube which I will not link to. It is however slightly amusing reading the even more knowledgable experts on there giving their debriefings and also giving UKAR a right old slagging....
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Re: P-51 Mustang "Big Beautiful Doll" down - Pilot ok!

Post by FlyingMachinesTV »

I'm wondering why someone who should really know better is cheerleading the uninformed speculation on here?

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Re: P-51 Mustang "Big Beautiful Doll" down - Pilot ok!

Post by DamienB »

Dan O, Saturday:

DanO1978 wrote:...the flying was at times quite underwhelming... lacklustre... rather dull... fails to impress. *


Dan O, Sunday:

DanO1978 wrote:Both days I felt there was TOO much going on at once, especially the first 45 minutes or so...
Why not spread out the displays, and make the show last five hours, rather than cramming the sky with aeroplanes for three?



* Now I admit I may have accidentally snipped a word or two too many from this quote, but on balance I thought it was worth it for a laugh.

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Re: P-51 Mustang "Big Beautiful Doll" down - Pilot ok!

Post by DamienB »

:whistle: :grin:

Daily Heil now have some pics up:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... rshow.html

With comedy captioning errors too.

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