UK to revert back to F-35B?

UK to revert back to F-35B?

Postby tomcatforever on Fri 02 Mar 2012, 1:50 pm

Speechless :roll:



UK aircraft carrier plans in confusion as ministers revisit square one

Decision expected by Easter on which US joint strike fighter Britain will buy: ministers now want to revert to original choice

Britain's troubled and increasingly expensive plan to equip the navy with new aircraft carriers has been plunged into fresh turmoil as ministers consider reversing their earlier decision to change the type of plane that should fly from them, it has emerged.

The government announced in last autumn's strategic defence review that it had decided to buy the "cats and flaps" (catapults and arrester gear) version of the US joint strike fighter. This would have a "longer range and greater payload ... the critical requirement for precision-strike operations in the future", the government stated.

Moreover, the government added, it will be cheaper. It would also enable French planes to land on British carriers, and vice versa, inkeeping with the new UK-French defence spirit of co-operation.

Now, in an extraordinary volte-face, the Ministry of Defence says the "cats and flaps" planes may well be cheaper but it would be too expensive to redesign a carrier – more than £1bn – to accommodate them. The ministry is thus faced with the prospect of renegotiating a deal with the US, reverting to its original plan – namely buying the short take-off and vertical landing version of the aircraft, even though it is acknowledged to be less effective and more expensive .

The latest chapter in the troubled saga of Britain's future aircraft carriers – whose own estimated costs have soared – was raised on Thursday in a letter to the defence secretary, Philip Hammond, from Jim Murphy, his Labour opposite number.

Murphy referred to "worrying suggestions" that the government was about to change its mind about the kind of aircraft to buy from the US. "It is vital that there is now clarity on the government's plans for this vital area of the defence equipment programme," he wrote.

Murphy said the decision in the defence review to scrap the Harrier fleet meant the UK would have no carrier aircraft capability until 2020 – and then only one carrier would be operational.

Defence officials said that the government was "re-assessing" its earlier decision because, they indicated, of pressures on the defence budget.

HMS Queen Elizabeth, the first carrier, will be mothballed immediately it is launched in 2016, according to existing plans. The second, HMS Prince of Wales, will be able to put to sea by 2020, but it is not known how many planes will be able to fly from it – nor what kind.

The two carriers, originally priced at £3.5bn, are now estimated to cost £6.2bn. According to the Commons public accounts committee, the cost is likely to icrease to as much as £12bn.

The government, which originally said it wanted more than 100 joint strike fighters, says that it will have just six operational ones by 2020. The unit cost of the joint strike fighter, made by Lockheed Martin, has soared because of production problems and delays caused by US defence budget cuts. Britain's BAE Systems and Rolls-Royce have big stakes in a future deal adapting the joint strike fighter for British forces.

A spokesperson for the MoD said: "We are currently finalising the 2012-13 budget and balancing the equipment plan. As part of this process, we are reviewing all programmes, including elements of the carrier strike programme, to validate costs and ensure risks are properly managed. The defence secretary expects to announce the outcome of this process to parliament before Easter."


Info from The Guardian.co.uk
Gary
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tomcatforever

Re: UK to revert back to F-35B?

Postby Russ on Fri 02 Mar 2012, 2:06 pm

A very bizarre decision, if it is indeed made. That's not a slur on the 'B which will be a fantastic aircraft, now a number of the problems have been sorted, but the F-35C makes so much more sense.

Can't help but think this seems to be a political idea, perhaps because of British industry involved in the 'B (although there is plenty in all three variants), rather than a military one.
Ma-Ma is not the law... I am the law.
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Re: UK to revert back to F-35B?

Postby DamienB on Fri 02 Mar 2012, 6:33 pm

Government: So, BAE, these big carriers of yours, looks like they're going to be no use to us as the little jets we want to put on them are turning out to be a bit crap. We'd like to buy some similar jets without the crap bits, but they have arrestor hooks and don't stop very quickly without arrestor wires to match. So we'll be cancelling the carriers - unless you can convert them so they have catapults and arrester gear?

BAE: Right you are guvnor. No problem, that should only be about eleventy quid. We'd already designed a load of empty space into them just in case you dicked us about like this. Honestly.

Government: Excellent, thank you Smithers. We'll tell the Septics we don't want the crap jet but do want the hooky one.

Septics: Ah, you don't want the crappy jet? OK, fair enough buddy. Have to warn you though, the hooky version ain't too good at stopping even if you put arrestor wires on those cute lil' carriers you're building. We were kinda expecting you to d1ck us about so you'll still have to buy the first crap jet you don't want.

Government: Damn. Well, never mind, we're sure you'll fix that hooky thing, no?

Septics: Yes. Absolutely. It'll only cost about eleventy bucks extra too.

BAE: Excuse me chaps, but you know we said eleventy quid? We actually meant a billion quid.

Government: But I thought you said you'd designed them to be easy to convert?

BAE: Sure, it's easy. But it's still expensive.

Government: Hey septics, can we buy the crap jet after all?

Septics: Gee buddy, no problem. Now, just which one are you talking about? Could do you a deal on some bargain basement F-22s - as long as the pilots hold their breath the oxygen system is guaranteed not to kill them.

Government: Did you say bargain? We'll have 100! Just one tiny thing, could we have them with smaller wings and vertical landing? Shouldn't cost much extra, should it?
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DamienB

Re: UK to revert back to F-35B?

Postby wezgulf3 on Fri 02 Mar 2012, 7:16 pm

I cant wait for the Movie! Davegate i think is a pretty good Title!!

Wes..
wezgulf3

Re: UK to revert back to F-35B?

Postby ATrs.jules on Sat 03 Mar 2012, 2:05 pm

come back Harrier all is for given? :wall:
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ATrs.jules

Re: UK to revert back to F-35B?

Postby DanO1978 on Sat 03 Mar 2012, 2:13 pm

Remind me again why we ditched the proven Sea Harrier/Harrier GR9 for the extortionate, plastic American F-35, which is proving to be far more trouble than it's worth?

If it wasn't broken, why fix it?

The result being a gaping capability chasm for years to come, and a new aircraft type which is costing an arm and a leg, and from various reports ain't much cop.
The name's Smythe. James St. John Smythe.
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DanO1978
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Re: UK to revert back to F-35B?

Postby iainpeden on Sat 03 Mar 2012, 2:21 pm

That is a question to ask all prospective Tory MP's at the next election - and just to keep it balanced, ask the Labour ones how we came to be in this mess.

(afraid the Lib Dems don't count and quite probably won't exist next time around.)
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iainpeden

Re: UK to revert back to F-35B?

Postby Orion on Sat 03 Mar 2012, 7:36 pm

The Telegraph has a report too:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... elays.html


Regards
David Mylchreest
Orion

Re: UK to revert back to F-35B?

Postby scotthldr on Sun 04 Mar 2012, 1:33 am

Why is everyone so against the F35? Look at Typhoon... 30 years in the making and it also had it's fair share of setbacks and massive financial overruns. Unfortunately with the amount of technology (and most of it is being untried technology) in these things, things aren't going to go to plan all the time and will only get picked up once the rigorous testing takes place.

The Harrier might've been a decent platform in it's day but it had it's limitations and is fast approaching obsolescence, unfortunately in British service it had to go a couple of years early to free up cash for newer projects.
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scotthldr

Re: UK to revert back to F-35B?

Postby boff180 on Sun 04 Mar 2012, 3:40 am

scotthldr wrote:Why is everyone so against the F35? Look at Typhoon... 30 years in the making and it also had it's fair share of setbacks and massive financial overruns. Unfortunately with the amount of technology (and most of it is being untried technology) in these things, things aren't going to go to plan all the time and will only get picked up once the rigorous testing takes place.


90% Of the Typhoons delays were political. The aircraft itself did exactly what it was designed to do from day 1.... Be a highly agile dog fighter and air superioty aircraft.

With the JSF, it was billed as the Jack of all trades fighter ensuring commonality across NATO allies in all versions. Cheap stealth.

The final design has ended up extremely compromised to maintain commonality and has some serious technical flaws. The delays on F-35 are not political, the aircraft itself in its current state is a flawed design. It has the potential to be superb but its going to cost a lot more money and redesigns yet. Latest one I've heard about is the avionics equipment isn't up to specs and needs redesigning!

Andy
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boff180
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Re: UK to revert back to F-35B?

Postby jakdaw on Sun 04 Mar 2012, 11:05 am

Maybe Boeing should have kept developing the X-32 off their own backs!!
jakdaw

Re: UK to revert back to F-35B?

Postby Orion on Sun 04 Mar 2012, 12:06 pm

jakdaw wrote:Maybe Boeing should have kept developing the X-32 off their own backs!!

Glad they didn't, such an ugly aeroplane!

Regards
David Mylchreest
Orion

Re: UK to revert back to F-35B?

Postby iainpeden on Sun 04 Mar 2012, 1:36 pm

Orion wrote:
jakdaw wrote:Maybe Boeing should have kept developing the X-32 off their own backs!!

Glad they didn't, such an ugly aeroplane!

Regards


That's what the doubters said about the Phantom and that hasn't done so badly over the last 54 years.
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iainpeden

Re: UK to revert back to F-35B?

Postby AndyBeau on Sun 04 Mar 2012, 2:32 pm

boff180 wrote:
scotthldr wrote:Why is everyone so against the F35? Look at Typhoon... 30 years in the making and it also had it's fair share of setbacks and massive financial overruns. Unfortunately with the amount of technology (and most of it is being untried technology) in these things, things aren't going to go to plan all the time and will only get picked up once the rigorous testing takes place.


90% Of the Typhoons delays were political. The aircraft itself did exactly what it was designed to do from day 1.... Be a highly agile dog fighter and air superioty aircraft.



What a load of tosh!

With the JSF, it was billed as the Jack of all trades fighter ensuring commonality across NATO allies in all versions. Cheap stealth.

The final design has ended up extremely compromised to maintain commonality and has some serious technical flaws. The delays on F-35 are not political, the aircraft itself in its current state is a flawed design. It has the potential to be superb but its going to cost a lot more money and redesigns yet. Latest one I've heard about is the avionics equipment isn't up to specs and needs redesigning!


How can a design be "extremely compomised" but have potential to be "superb?" :grin:

ALL high technology programmes go through "re-designs" and adjustments based on trials and experience. That's why we have trial programmes to make sure the sytem is safe and reliable to operate. Nobody is perfect and can predict 100% the performane of a highly complex system straight from the drawing board. Its better to find the gremlins and issues in the tests rather than out in the field.

Name me one programme where a brand new system has been designed and released for service with no cost overuns or technical delays?

I rest my case.
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AndyBeau

Re: UK to revert back to F-35B?

Postby Beefy on Sun 04 Mar 2012, 2:40 pm

Orion wrote:
jakdaw wrote:Maybe Boeing should have kept developing the X-32 off their own backs!!

Glad they didn't, such an ugly aeroplane!

Regards


As is the F-35 - horrible looking thing!!!
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Beefy

Re: UK to revert back to F-35B?

Postby DamienB on Sun 04 Mar 2012, 6:25 pm

AndyBeau wrote:Name me one programme where a brand new system has been designed and released for service with no cost overuns or technical delays?

I rest my case.


Most of the software projects I've been involved with. But then I'm dead good me.

In all seriousness the programmes that meet cost and deadline targets don't make the news. There are plenty of them. Most of the Jaguar upgrades; the EA-18G Prowler, HMS Bulwark upgrade, Trance 2 Typhoon production, etc. etc. - just the results from a couple of minutes on Google.

Don't fall into the trap of assuming ALL projects run late and over-budget - this is simply not the case.
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DamienB

Re: UK to revert back to F-35B?

Postby AndyBeau on Sun 04 Mar 2012, 7:51 pm

Damien,

I was careful with the words I used. All the programmes that you have mentioned are upgrades based on a system already in existance therefore a baseline is already in place to work from. And without knowing the specifics of the ones you mentioned I can probably guess that the updates being integrated into those platforms are proven technologies already working elsewhere. I'm not saying that it's easy to integrate new systems into old platforms, just that generally, the technology already exists and its a case of making it all compatible and working.

But when you're pushing the state of art, building and integrating new technologies into a brand new system that has many thousands of different components and subsystems that all need to be compatible with each other, work and are predictable; it isn't easy.

I know not all programmes are late and over-buget, as I've worked on a few myself which have come out good.
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AndyBeau

Re: UK to revert back to F-35B?

Postby Orion on Mon 05 Mar 2012, 11:06 am

iainpeden wrote:
Orion wrote:
jakdaw wrote:Maybe Boeing should have kept developing the X-32 off their own backs!!

Glad they didn't, such an ugly aeroplane!

Regards


That's what the doubters said about the Phantom and that hasn't done so badly over the last 54 years.


The first time I saw a photo of the Phantom in 1958 or so it looked good then and still looks good today, but the X-32 has always looked horrible.

To pick up on another thread, I do wonder whether there are too many variants of the F-35 for all of them to work. As the F-35B is the version that is the 'furthest away' from the F-35A in engineering terms it shouldn't be too much of a surprise that it's struggling.

I think the day of the STOVL fighter has come and gone. I correctly predicted that the Harrier would be axed in the Defence Review and for the same reasons the F-35B will go too.

Regards
David Mylchreest
Orion

Re: UK to revert back to F-35B?

Postby Unknown74 on Mon 05 Mar 2012, 7:49 pm

Was thinking recently that this jet should really be renamed the Harrier III not the Lightning II.....

Just a thought.
Unknown74

Re: UK to revert back to F-35B?

Postby tomcatforever on Wed 09 May 2012, 11:25 am

Bringing this thread back



About-turn on new variant of carriers’ fighter plane

By James Kirkup, Deputy Political Editor
6:20AM BST 09 May 2012


David Cameron has approved a major retreat over aircraft for the Royal Navy’s new carriers, abandoning plans to buy the conventional take-off version of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

Philip Hammond, the Defence Secretary, will tell MPs tomorrow that the Government will now purchase the jump-jet model of the plane instead, reversing one of the central decisions in the Coalition’s controversial defence review.

The Prime Minister’s National Security Council yesterday considered Mr Hammond’s plan, which will be announced to the House of Commons.

Mr Hammond will claim the decision will save hundreds of millions of pounds and help the Armed Forces. But he will face accusations of a climb-down driven by financial miscalculation.

The decision to buy the conventional take-off “C-variant” of the F-35 was at the heart of the Strategic Defence and Security Review in 2010.

Deploying the aircraft would require modifications to the new Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers to install catapults and landing gear.

The Ministry of Defence originally estimated the cost of that work at around £400 million, but internal MoD projections now put the figure at closer to £2 billion.

Mr Hammond told The Daily Telegraph this week that, since the defence review, “the facts have changed” on the choice of planes for the new carriers.

Attempting to balance the defence budget after years of overspending, Mr Hammond yesterday told Cabinet ministers that the rising cost should lead to the catapult plan being abandoned.

The Daily Telegraph earlier this month disclosed a secret Ministry of Defence paper showing military planners considered the jump-jet to be less useful and powerful than the conventional variant.

Despite the embarrassment of overturning the decision, ministers will argue that the change could bring some military benefits to the UK. In particular, buying the jump-jet could mean the next generation of carriers is ready to sail

The decision to install catapults on the new carriers was expected to delay the arrival of the new vessels until at least 2020. Delays in completing the conventional variant plane could have pushed that date back to 2023 or even later, leaving the UK without a working aircraft carrier for at least a decade.

By contrast, the development of the jump-jet fighter is proceeding more smoothly than expected, meaning the aircraft could be ready to fly from the new carriers as early as 2018.

Adopting the jump-jet could also allow the Navy to have two operational carriers. Under the review, one of the new carriers is to be mothballed to save money.

Downing Street confirmed a statement on the carrier programme was imminent.


Info from Telegraph website
Gary
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tomcatforever

Re: UK to revert back to F-35B?

Postby Vodka on Wed 09 May 2012, 12:31 pm

Either way, good or bad, we're getting carriers with an air asset! More than what we have for the next 6 years.
Vodka

Re: UK to revert back to F-35B?

Postby Dragon Rapide on Wed 09 May 2012, 12:34 pm

Seems as though the 8% who voted for "B" in the other thread were prescient! :smile:
Listen to that Gipsy music.....

Dragon Rapide
Dragon Rapide

Re: UK to revert back to F-35B?

Postby 121decimal5 on Wed 09 May 2012, 9:45 pm

As no conversion is required to the carrier design will this mean the second carrier will now enter service?
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121decimal5

Re: UK to revert back to F-35B?

Postby lambo17841 on Thu 10 May 2012, 6:53 am

After all this why do we need a new carrier,what was wrong with those that we had with the Harriers.Come to think of it why get rid of the Harriers in the first place at least wait a while until we see how the F-35 with all its problems would develop instead of selling them for a bargain price to the USA.
The new carriers were only being built for the jobs in Scotland which Labour thought would keep them in power which did not work although if I remember they made the contract so bad that to cancel would cost just as much.

John
lambo17841

Re: UK to revert back to F-35B?

Postby swingy on Thu 10 May 2012, 8:15 am

Oh no what a mess. So by the Government's own admission we are now going to purchase a less capable aircraft and put it on a carrier that we cant share with our new best pals in France and cant cross operate US Navy assets from which was heralded as one of the reasons for change. You wonder that saying that the cost estimates were wrong how many other review decisions were based on flawed information. No doubt the Government will blame someone else perhaps even the good Dr Fox but it now makes the decision to get rid of the harrier force look flawed as we now lose the aircrew capability just like Nmrod.

USMC must just be loving this and thinking when can we pick up some cheap UK F35s and Lockheed will no doubt hit us with a bill for changing our minds again and through it all the UK comes out of it looking like we have not a clue about how structure our defence forces. :sad:
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