RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby The Baron on Sun 31 Dec 2017, 8:22 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:Whinge about the airframe as much as you want, but the greatest offence is that from the photos featured there appears to be no mention whatsoever about the pilot or his fate.


Surely the airframe itself is the best memorial to Denis Copping? From where I'm sitting the Egyptians have basically vandalised his memorial. The fact there's no mention of him just adds insult to injury.
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby Hammy on Sun 31 Dec 2017, 8:45 pm

HeyfordDave111 wrote:What about the spitfire?
Where is it now?
Who is responsible?
What’s happening with it?
Anyone?


1. See the below.
2. As of September 2013, it was stored alongside Seafire Mk.46 LA564 at North Weald, see below image.

Image
Image: Richard Crockett

3. Presumably, it is still in the care of Kennet Aviation unless it has been sold and its new owner has had it moved to another location.
4. That's a very good question, it's likely that it's still stored at North Weald.
5. Me? I'm Martin, from Macclesfield.
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby Brevet Cable on Sun 31 Dec 2017, 11:27 pm

The Baron wrote:Surely the airframe itself is the best memorial to Denis Copping? From where I'm sitting the Egyptians have basically vandalised his memorial. The fact there's no mention of him just adds insult to injury.

It's only a memorial to him if the accompanying bumf mentioned him....it doesn't.
In my opinion they could have painted it in the proper scheme or even left it as-is, but without making reference to him 99% or more of those who ever get to see the airframe wouldn't have a clue.




As for the Spitfire traded to Kennet Aviation in payment for the recovery of the P-40.......from posts on the Flypast forum, apparently that's a non-story as KA complied with and completed every part of the recovery process they were contracted for.
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby Marathon Milkshake on Mon 01 Jan 2018, 11:41 am

Brevet Cable wrote:.......from posts on the Flypast forum


All 80! pages of it, they seem to be going pretty ape about the whole situation, while I think possibly forgetting that it is safe where it is now, away from looters or scrap merchants or indeed the so called black market, but on that forum saying the slightest wrong thing gets a lifetime ban!

Personaly I think that more items will be found, Egypt and indeed Africa is a vast place, with plenty of places for long forgotten war materials to hide....
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby wezgulf3 on Tue 02 Jan 2018, 1:37 pm

Looks like the guy who took the pictures thinks they did "Great Restoration"

Image

Wes...
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby Brevet Cable on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 6:08 pm

From posts on the Flypast forum, the Daily Mail is now on the case : http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5231593/Egyptians-World-War-II-RAF-Kittyhawk-plane-makeover.html#ixzz53914dkOk

And the comments on the article say it all. :facepalm:
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby Marathon Milkshake on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 10:32 am

Egypt giving us the finger
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby HeyfordDave111 on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 11:45 am

So, if I understand this properly.

The P40 was found, and the RAFM wanted it, and brokered a deal in which the P40 was recovered but not to the UK, and in payment was a spitfire?

Sorry but more questions than answers here....... how much was the recovery costs across Egypt to where it ended up?

Was there a permission to export to the UK in place?
How much is a spitfire worth nowadays?

Why wasn’t the contract to include transport to Hendon / Cosford?

Who was responsible for this ‘deal’? And why haven’t we all been told the full story about this which should cover answers to these questions?

Lastly, if it was a “horlicks” like it seems to me, due to an insufficient contract weighted in K.A.’s favour (i’m Not blaming K.A. Here as they apparently have been paid for their contracted work with the agreed fee), then who’s head’s are rolling for this? If not why not, and if they have left the RAFM (and I doubt all concerned haven’t) why aren’t we chasing them for gross misconduct?

Was a damaged piece of history worth a spitfire in exchange? What were the Egyptians getting out of this? If nothing, then you could have bet your bottom dollar that the P40 wouldn’t have gone anywhere!

And again, whatever happens, it’s shameful that the pilot isn’t commemorated at all on the plinth the badly made airfix kit now stands.
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby Marathon Milkshake on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 5:19 pm

This post over on the flypast forum is worth a read

https://forum.keypublishing.com/showthr ... ost2425576
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby Tommy on Thu 11 Jan 2018, 1:11 pm

Thanks to IanG for spotting this, another video relevant showing the recovery of the "Kitty Hawaak".

In places it looks astonishingly well-preserved underneath the wing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov8jVroC820&t=5s
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby keithjs on Thu 11 Jan 2018, 2:43 pm

Tommy wrote:Thanks to IanG for spotting this, another video relevant showing the recovery of the "Kitty Hawaak".

In places it looks astonishingly well-preserved underneath the wing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov8jVroC820&t=5s


Very interesting video, such a shame it looks like it does now... :sad: And, from a personal point of view (although I doubt if he'd remember me) I know one of the guys on the clip too.....
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby JJC on Thu 11 Jan 2018, 6:31 pm

For all intents and purposes, it would have been better left where it was.

A shambles, a national disgrace and a travesty however you look it. And most egregious of all - the desecration of what is essentially a war grave by the Egyptian authorities.

Truly disgraceful.
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby Marathon Milkshake on Thu 11 Jan 2018, 10:54 pm

JJC wrote:For all intents and purposes, it would have been better left where it was.


Nope, nothing would be left of it by now, souvenier hunters had already started on it before it was recovered
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby AFKAMC on Fri 12 Jan 2018, 11:22 am

JJC wrote:And most egregious of all - the desecration of what is essentially a war grave by the Egyptian authorities.


Was the wreck itself a war grave, though? Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_grave) suggests that military aircraft are only classed as war graves if they crashed in water; “this is particularly true if crewmen perished inside the vehicle.” Neither applies in this case.

The UK Government (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/aviation-archaeology) has this to say: “All military aircraft crash sites in the United Kingdom, its territorial waters, or British aircraft in international waters, are controlled sites under the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986.” and “Outside the United Kingdom, international or British territorial waters, the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986 does not apply. Excavations of crash sites of British aircraft are be subject to the laws of the country concerned. However, MOD policy is to discourage disturbance of such sites unless necessary in respect of host government approved activities, like land reclamation or construction.”

It seems to me that the RAF museum actively encouraged and facilitated disturbance of the site, because they wanted to recover the aircraft. So I don’t see how the Egyptians can be blamed on this score.

I believe from what I’ve read elsewhere that human remains were located in the vicinity, but after investigation were deemed not to be those of the pilot. If this is the case, then surely the pilot, sadly, has no known grave?

So I don’t see any desecration having taken place.
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby JJC on Fri 12 Jan 2018, 12:47 pm

AFKAMC wrote:
JJC wrote:And most egregious of all - the desecration of what is essentially a war grave by the Egyptian authorities.


Was the wreck itself a war grave, though? Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_grave) suggests that military aircraft are only classed as war graves if they crashed in water; “this is particularly true if crewmen perished inside the vehicle.” Neither applies in this case.

The UK Government (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/aviation-archaeology) has this to say: “All military aircraft crash sites in the United Kingdom, its territorial waters, or British aircraft in international waters, are controlled sites under the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986.” and “Outside the United Kingdom, international or British territorial waters, the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986 does not apply. Excavations of crash sites of British aircraft are be subject to the laws of the country concerned. However, MOD policy is to discourage disturbance of such sites unless necessary in respect of host government approved activities, like land reclamation or construction.”

It seems to me that the RAF museum actively encouraged and facilitated disturbance of the site, because they wanted to recover the aircraft. So I don’t see how the Egyptians can be blamed on this score.

I believe from what I’ve read elsewhere that human remains were located in the vicinity, but after investigation were deemed not to be those of the pilot. If this is the case, then surely the pilot, sadly, has no known grave?

So I don’t see any desecration having taken place.


The important phrase being ‘what is essentially...’ regardless of what it may or may not be in very specific legal terms, the aircraft represents the last known and tangible location of Dennis Copping. As it is unlikely that his remains will ever be found, it represents the most compelling location for his final resting place.

You don’t see how the Egyptian authorities and their bodge job ‘restoration’ is rather unsympathetic and completely inappropriate? Interesting.

Considering the Egyptian authorities said the bones were too old/too contaminated to run any meaningful tests on, I don’t see how they would know.

Think what you want, the fact remains that this entire affair has been mismanaged and poorly orchestrated. Regardless of the pressing necessity to move the aircraft to a ‘safe location’, there should have been more oversight and the project should have been handled better.

I’ve no more to say on the subject other than to say it is a huge shame.
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby Traveller on Sat 13 Jan 2018, 9:25 am

Hilarious, you lot. So taking a wreck and making it look like this is tragic yet oh, Miss Demeanor in that ridiculous scheme never came in for criticism and was simply stunning and a huge loss when sold......
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby Jakub.Zurek on Sat 13 Jan 2018, 10:25 am

But with Miss Demeanour, it was never meant to be an authentic scheme?
With this P-40, they clearly tried to represent what the aircraft looked like in WWII... Just look at all the discussion on various forums about the wrong roundels on certain aircraft e.g. MH434. That's what everyone is upset about, taking a historical time capsule, and by our UK standards, restoring it very poorly.
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby Hammy on Sat 13 Jan 2018, 10:40 am

Traveller wrote:Hilarious, you lot. So taking a wreck and making it look like this is tragic yet oh, Miss Demeanor in that ridiculous scheme never came in for criticism and was simply stunning and a huge loss when sold......


Nuance, a speciality of yours?
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