Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Thu 29 Jun 2017, 9:50 pm

Still an accident involving the aeroplane, regardless of cause. Shoreham was proven to be, at least in part, pilot error, and we've not seen a Hunter at an airshow since.
Dan O'Hagan

Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby FGR2 on Thu 29 Jun 2017, 9:53 pm

Adie1980 wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote:
DonaldGrump wrote:Would you like to make clear in what way this aircraft has been dangerous?

Display flying is dangerous regardless of the aircraft. The Sea Vixen no more than other vintage aircraft. It frankly seems to me that many on here are fast becoming turkeys screaming for more xmas. Why not have done with it and ban vintage aircraft doing flying displays across the board, and then hope to god nobody gets killed whilst indulging in whatever alternative they find to attending or participating in the air shows that are soon to be no longer at this rate.


Gear collapse at Hurn in 2012 and damaging its flaps in flight last year dangerous enough for you?

Lovely aeroplane, but one that never seems too far from needing repairs. You can only tweak the nose of fate so many times. £3m to tweak it some more is plain foolhardy.


Gear collapse was pilot error, not an aircraft safety issue


I thought it was a bit of both, correct me if I am wrong, if I remember the gear shouldn't have retracted, as a micro switch should have prevented this. I seem to recall that the gear (after the aircraft being fitted with drop tanks), had not been set up correctly and had not compressed sufficiently. The aircraft thought it was in the air and up went the gear, crunch! :dizzy:
FGR2

Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby DonaldGrump on Thu 29 Jun 2017, 9:59 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
DonaldGrump wrote:Would you like to make clear in what way this aircraft has been dangerous?

Display flying is dangerous regardless of the aircraft. The Sea Vixen no more than other vintage aircraft. It frankly seems to me that many on here are fast becoming turkeys screaming for more xmas. Why not have done with it and ban vintage aircraft doing flying displays across the board, and then hope to god nobody gets killed whilst indulging in whatever alternative they find to attending or participating in the air shows that are soon to be no longer at this rate.


Gear collapse at Hurn in 2012 and damaging its flaps in flight last year dangerous enough for you?

Lovely aeroplane, but one that never seems too far from needing repairs. You can only tweak the nose of fate so many times. £3m to tweak it some more is plain foolhardy.


No not nearly dangerous enough, if you expect old aircraft (or new for that matter) to operate without a glitch then you really must support the complete abolition of flying displays for the public.

Would you say that the Lancaster should be grounded because that has had more proplems than the Vixen over the last few years? cant have that flying over the fields of Lincolnshire with an engine fire just in case it falls onto a couple of copulating trespassers in a hay stack as the compensation would bankrupt the RAF.
DonaldGrump

Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby FGR2 on Thu 29 Jun 2017, 10:14 pm

The only thing I would say is the Lancaster does do a large number of shows each year, and it's reliability is pretty good. I am probably right in saying that engine fire (and probably one or two gear issues) were it's only major incidents in 40 or so years. It is all simple 1940s technology as well, so it is easy to repair :smile:
FGR2

Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby DonaldGrump on Thu 29 Jun 2017, 10:48 pm

FGR2 wrote:The only thing I would say is the Lancaster does do a large number of shows each year, and it's reliability is pretty good. I am probably right in saying that engine fire (and probably one or two gear issues) were it's only major incidents in 40 or so years. It is all simple 1940s technology as well, so it is easy to repair :smile:


Of course I am not for one minute suggesting it should not continue doing lots of shows for decades to come, but at the end of the day it regardless of age falls out of the sky onto someone the consequences are not going to be good. My point about all this sudden screaming about safety seems to miss the fact that until Shoreham no members of the public have died as a result of an aircraft coming down at an airshow since the Farnborough crash until Shoreham. It seems fairly certain that it will remain the case that nobody has died due to a mechanical, structural failure since that day, if we accept there was nothing wrong with the Hunter at Shoreham.

To suggest the Sea Vixen has been a danger any more than any other display aircraft in my opinion is absolute rubbish. I would even suggest that given the high chance of the much loved media trash journalists held in such high esteem on here passing through this parish in search of tit bits, Dan's comments could at best feed the trolls and at worse be responsible for scaremongering and doing yet more damage to our air show industry.
DonaldGrump

Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby Pat Murphy on Thu 29 Jun 2017, 10:52 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:Still an accident involving the aeroplane, regardless of cause. Shoreham was proven to be, at least in part, pilot error, and we've not seen a Hunter at an airshow since.


Quite right Dan, I mean, last year the BBMF Lancaster caught fire, I say ground it now. Recently somewhere in the world, an airliner, I forget which type it was, had an incident. Ground that now, In fact flying...I mean it's just so dangerous we had better just.....

Oh :roll: you get the drift. The Sea Vixen has been particularly unlucky but, the only thing barring it's return to the sky to be operated professionally, is a lack of funds not safety. If you read the article in Aeroplane regarding classic jet operators, you will find that although the scene has obviously been in decline in recent years, there have been meetings between the operators and the CAA recently (Jonathon Whaley involved) that may have a positive outcome regarding the Hunter at least. The continuing grounding of the type is becoming increasingly untenable and may be open to legal challenge. I look forward to seeing a Hunter in the sky again soon.

As for the Vixen? Yes it may be time for flying to end but please it is NOT because it's dangerous and I am disappointed that you would smear a professional organisation in this way, by assuming that they would continue to operate said "Dangerous" aircraft at risk to the pilot et al.

Pat
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Formerly known as Ilovelightnings
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Pat Murphy

Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby vulcan558 on Thu 29 Jun 2017, 11:08 pm

Well if you got a team like TVOC involved, then the cost would not be 2 or 3 million. It
Would be more like 23 million.
vulcan558

Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby strangelookingalien on Thu 29 Jun 2017, 11:28 pm

The danger that aircraft pose is so alarmingly small it is ridiculous. The only reason anyone makes a fuss about air accidents is because they are spectacular, in the true sense of the word. There are plenty of other horrendously dangerous things that go on every day with little regulation and no public outcry; I think its pretty pathetic that there's people on an aviation forum suggesting that classic aircraft are, in the grand scheme of things, dangerous. Shoreham was a freak event. It was horrible, but frankly it doesn't deserve the huge outcry it's garnered.
strangelookingalien

Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby DonaldGrump on Thu 29 Jun 2017, 11:37 pm

strangelookingalien wrote:The danger that aircraft pose is so alarmingly small it is ridiculous. The only reason anyone makes a fuss about air accidents is because they are spectacular, in the true sense of the word. There are plenty of other horrendously dangerous things that go on every day with little regulation and no public outcry; I think its pretty pathetic that there's people on an aviation forum suggesting that classic aircraft are, in the grand scheme of things, dangerous. Shoreham was a freak event. It was horrible, but frankly it doesn't deserve the huge outcry it's garnered.


Exactly this, after all you are much more likely to be killed by an exploding muslim at a music event than by an aircraft at an air show, yet more draconian measures to avoid the virtually non existent danger of being killed by an aircraft have been taken in the name of health and safety, than will ever be taken to avoid people being blown to bits on the streets of Britain. Insanity.
DonaldGrump

Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby strangelookingalien on Fri 30 Jun 2017, 12:02 am

Personally I think the excitement over terrorism is just as stupid, but I take your point.
strangelookingalien

Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby mrshu on Fri 30 Jun 2017, 8:02 am

Re:- Time to patch it up, and wheel it across to the museum. That's much too big a financial undertaking for an aeroplane that has no great resonance with the general public.

Is that really the best you can offer???

Firstly, we are all aware that it simply cannot compete with the Vulcan as a show stopper, but the fact is, the Vulcan is no more!
Secondly, "most, if not all" aviation enthusiasts know what the Sea Vixen is and what an amazing and unique aircraft it is on the Air Show circuit. It's not all about the general public who have no interest in aviation and might only go to the free seaside shows!!
Lastly, now the Vulcan is no more, surely the Sea Vixen is by far the most special and unique example of an ex British Military Jet on the UK display circuit??? We sadly cannot fly types like the Lightning, Buccaneer, etc for what are obvious reasons with regards to complex types. We loose the Sea Vixen then what are we actually left with?
If the extremely professional team at Yeovilton have made the very tough decision to try and fix this special airframe after a great deal of thought and soul searching then let's support their hopes that they will once again get "Foxy" back where she belongs in the skies over Britain while there is still hope! Thy wouldn't have taken that decision lightly and certainly wouldn't have done so if they didn't think it was worth it having spent many hours around a table with "industry experts" and will have poured over all the data, health and safety wise verses cost etc. I would therefore suggest that between them they are the ones best placed, by far, to have reached the decision they have. Would you not agree?

Over to you Dan!!!
mrshu

Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby Screechy on Fri 30 Jun 2017, 8:52 am

It doesn't resonate with the public because it's not BIG enough size-wise or hype-wise either. As far as public support the only item I could see that would get the public support to the same levels as the Vulcan would be Concorde, other than that I don't think there is anything out there that would spark the publics interest and imagination enough. I love the Sea Vixen, it's a beast but i'd have to explain that to the wife as to why that would be. The Vulcan however is plainly obvious why it's a beast, the same would be true of Concorde, it's a distinctive size, shape and sound that set it apart.
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Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby Mike on Fri 30 Jun 2017, 9:19 am

Screechy wrote:As far as public support the only item I could see that would get the public support to the same levels as the Vulcan would be Concorde, other than that I don't think there is anything out there that would spark the publics interest and imagination enough.

Harrier
Mike

Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby tu16 on Fri 30 Jun 2017, 9:30 am

Harrier - agreed.... or Lightning..... maybe a Phantom?
tu16

Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby Georgeconna on Fri 30 Jun 2017, 9:36 am

Dan's really good at getting a threads moving and increasing hits on the Site with his Gruff one liners stirring up emotion!.

The Vulcan Thread and this are particularly entertaining to read and pass a bit of time at work!! :snack:

Keep up the good work.

I for one would be delighted to risk my life in watching another' Dangerous' Vixen display should I ever get the chance again. Possibly one of the Most Elegant Displays in the Circuit over the past few years. Like the Vulcan it will be missed.
Cheers

George

Zero shows for 2018 Giving in a Rest.
Georgeconna

Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby Screechy on Fri 30 Jun 2017, 9:37 am

All exciting aircraft to me but doubt Joe Public is going to be fussed with them too much. Neither are visible enough during a display, the Harrier spends most of its display time hovering in front of a limited crowd section and the Phantom just won't be recognised as anything different at all by Joanna Public, nor the Lightning. Gotta be big! Concorde, Vulcan, B-29 etc ... and it's got to make some noise so the Airlander wouldn't cut it either
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Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby Spiny Norman on Fri 30 Jun 2017, 9:58 am

Screechy wrote:All exciting aircraft to me but doubt Joe Public is going to be fussed with them too much. Neither are visible enough during a display, the Harrier spends most of its display time hovering in front of a limited crowd section and the Phantom just won't be recognised as anything different at all by Joanna Public, nor the Lightning. Gotta be big! Concorde, Vulcan, B-29 etc ... and it's got to make some noise so the Airlander wouldn't cut it either


"Running in from the left, ladies and gentlemen, is a sight not seen in these skies for decades. This is the English Electric Lightning, the RAF's last all-British fighter. The first air force machine to go faster than twice the speed of sound. The first to go supersonic in level flight. Defender of the UK's skies during the Cold War with the acceleration of a scalded cat. Here it comes now, and you might notice the cone of vapour around the fuselage. That's nothing to be concerned about. That means it is travelling close to the speed of sound. Here it is now. The Lightning!"

Yeah, who would want to hear that an airshow...
I want to see a flying Mosquito in the UK. I'm supporting The People's Mosquito.
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Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby Screechy on Fri 30 Jun 2017, 10:07 am

Spiny Norman wrote:
Screechy wrote:All exciting aircraft to me but doubt Joe Public is going to be fussed with them too much. Neither are visible enough during a display, the Harrier spends most of its display time hovering in front of a limited crowd section and the Phantom just won't be recognised as anything different at all by Joanna Public, nor the Lightning. Gotta be big! Concorde, Vulcan, B-29 etc ... and it's got to make some noise so the Airlander wouldn't cut it either


"Running in from the left, ladies and gentlemen, is a sight not seen in these skies for decades. This is the English Electric Lightning, the RAF's last all-British fighter. The first air force machine to go faster than twice the speed of sound. The first to go supersonic in level flight. Defender of the UK's skies during the Cold War with the acceleration of a scalded cat. Here it comes now, and you might notice the cone of vapour around the fuselage. That's nothing to be concerned about. That means it is travelling close to the speed of sound. Here it is now. The Lightning!"

Yeah, who would want to hear that an airshow...


Great for me and the enthusiast, but not going to be a big draw for those outside that
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Screechy

Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby Mike on Fri 30 Jun 2017, 10:23 am

Pointy jet that makes a lot of noise. No different from a Typhoon to 90% of airshow goers.
Mike

Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby Screechy on Fri 30 Jun 2017, 10:42 am

Mike wrote:Pointy jet that makes a lot of noise. No different from a Typhoon to 90% of airshow goers.


Exactly
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Screechy

Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby capercaillie on Fri 30 Jun 2017, 10:42 am

Mike wrote:Pointy jet that makes a lot of noise. No different from a Typhoon to 90% of airshow goers.


I think at almost any airshow in the UK outside of Fairford and maybe Yeovilton, a noisy afterburning jet would create a great deal of interest these days, as hardly any are available anymore in the UK.

The fact it might be a shiny silver Lightning touted as "Britain's fastest ever aircraft, the only British supersonic blah-blah...etc" would stir up the Vulcanite type union flag wavers. The fact is its not going to happen any time soon anyway.
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Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby Flare Path on Fri 30 Jun 2017, 10:54 am

Mike wrote:Pointy jet that makes a lot of noise. No different from a Typhoon to 90% of airshow goers.


Could be applied to a whole range of aircraft displaying these days, if the 90% is an accurate number... :whistle:
Flare Path

Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby County1884 on Fri 30 Jun 2017, 12:20 pm

"Harrier spends most of its display time hovering in front of a limited crowd section"

Yeah what a load of old rubbish can't see the point at all, Who on earth would be interested in the most successful combat proven revolutionary post war British combat aircraft. :dizzy: :lmao:

SHAR at Old Warden Fly Navy anyone?
County1884

Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby Spiny Norman on Fri 30 Jun 2017, 12:28 pm

Screechy wrote:
Mike wrote:Pointy jet that makes a lot of noise. No different from a Typhoon to 90% of airshow goers.


Exactly


I think you're underestimating the audience a tad.

Is a Spitfire the same as a Tucano to 90% of airshow goers? Single-engined propeller aircraft flown by the RAF, what's the difference? History and the presentation of such.

Of course the Lightning doesn't have the same level of affection or knowledge with the public but how much did the Vulcan have? With the right PR and preparation a Lightning on the UK airshow circuit would be a massive draw. It might not happen, it probably won't. But it would be fantastic and it would not be the same as a Typhoon.
I want to see a flying Mosquito in the UK. I'm supporting The People's Mosquito.
http://www.peoplesmosquito.org.uk/
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Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby Screechy on Fri 30 Jun 2017, 12:34 pm

County1884 wrote:"Harrier spends most of its display time hovering in front of a limited crowd section"

Yeah what a load of old rubbish can't see the point at all, Who on earth would be interested in the most successful combat proven revolutionary post war British combat aircraft. :dizzy: :lmao:

SHAR at Old Warden Fly Navy anyone?


It's NOT what the enthusiast thinks though its what the majority of the public think that i'm getting at. Would the general public who are walking the static line at RIAT even look up if there was a Harrier hovering over the centre point of the runway? A Vulcan however.. you can see that from everywhere and you know it's there too, that's what gets the PUBLIC imagination going. There seems to be a lack of being able to put yourself in anyones shoes but your own going on here. Lighting..fantastic... average punter not fussed, maybe if it's the first time they see something there is a bit more interest but for repeat interest it's got to be something BIG and unique
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Screechy

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