Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby Alanko on Fri 30 Jun 2017, 2:33 pm

Screechy wrote:Great for me and the enthusiast, but not going to be a big draw for those outside that


I'm not so sure about that. I've spoken to lots of people with no interest in aviation who, because they are above a certain age, remember Lightnings. I've spoken to a number of people who went to university in St Andrews who remembers them operating out of Leuchars. Others were taken to airshows as children and remember them that way. One guy I spoke to was in the ATC at school, and was taken on a tour of an airbase and saw them up close. I think there is some residual interest in them outside the enthusiast sphere.
Alanko

Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby G-CVIX on Fri 30 Jun 2017, 2:39 pm

Alanko wrote:
Screechy wrote:Great for me and the enthusiast, but not going to be a big draw for those outside that


I'm not so sure about that. I've spoken to lots of people with no interest in aviation who, because they are above a certain age, remember Lightnings. I've spoken to a number of people who went to university in St Andrews who remembers them operating out of Leuchars. Others were taken to airshows as children and remember them that way. One guy I spoke to was in the ATC at school, and was taken on a tour of an airbase and saw them up close. I think there is some residual interest in them outside the enthusiast sphere.


I came here to post the same thing but you've said it much better than I could.

I know a lot of people that remember Lightning displays over anything else, and these aren't enthusiasts.

The Harrier is arguably more famous than the Vulcan and has huge public appeal. People were swarming to the crowd line to see the Harrier too but of course now we have to call that the "Vulcan Effect", because no other aircraft could ever possibly do that to people.....

Screechy, do you honestly think a Harrier would be ignored at an airshow? Even RIAT.
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Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby NickB on Fri 30 Jun 2017, 3:02 pm

We are not going to see a Lightning fly here in the UK. End of.
Same applies to a Phantom - too complicated, too expensive.

However, in recent years we have seen a Sea Vixen display - it has been allowed by the CAA, achieved by the operator and loved by airshow goers. Yes, it has has had more than it's fair share of mishaps, but that goes with the territory.

Look at Sea Furies - hardly a complex aircraft compared with the jets above and we've seen TF956 destroyed, WG655 effcectively written off (I understand the now WG655 isn't quite all of the original WG655) plus VX281 having an extremely close shave in 2014 - in fact if that aircraft wasn't directly over Culdrose when the engine failure happened it would have been either a smoking hole in the ground or more likely ditched into Mounts Bay... But, no one talks about grounding Sea Furies permanently.

So rather than bicker on here, wouldn't it be good to have something positive to say about XP924 and all of the hard work the team have put into getting it and keeping it flying? Is that really too difficult to do?
NickB

Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Fri 30 Jun 2017, 3:16 pm

G-CVIX wrote:
Alanko wrote:
Screechy wrote:Great for me and the enthusiast, but not going to be a big draw for those outside that


I'm not so sure about that. I've spoken to lots of people with no interest in aviation who, because they are above a certain age, remember Lightnings. I've spoken to a number of people who went to university in St Andrews who remembers them operating out of Leuchars. Others were taken to airshows as children and remember them that way. One guy I spoke to was in the ATC at school, and was taken on a tour of an airbase and saw them up close. I think there is some residual interest in them outside the enthusiast sphere.


I came here to post the same thing but you've said it much better than I could.

I know a lot of people that remember Lightning displays over anything else, and these aren't enthusiasts.

The Harrier is arguably more famous than the Vulcan and has huge public appeal. People were swarming to the crowd line to see the Harrier too but of course now we have to call that the "Vulcan Effect", because no other aircraft could ever possibly do that to people.....

Screechy, do you honestly think a Harrier would be ignored at an airshow? Even RIAT.


You're assuming, of course, that RIAT would book it.
Dan O'Hagan

Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby Screechy on Fri 30 Jun 2017, 3:19 pm

G-CVIX wrote:
Screechy, do you honestly think a Harrier would be ignored at an airshow? Even RIAT.


No I think it would be a great draw but mainly from the enthusiast and the more clued in public. These days the F35 can do the hover so it's no longer as unique as it once was (not that the F35 is a common display) Sure the Harrier was and still is a cool bit of kit and i'd love to see it again (in fact toying with going to a Spanish show in Sept just to do that) but did it stop the show to the extent that a Vulcan or Concord would and bring people through the door just to see it, not so sure. The Sea Vixen was a big draw for enthusiasts, I'm not so sure that the general public would be so bothered. We know the history, we know what it's done and what it's been through to get to this point. Joe public sees a noisy jet that looks a bit different but it's not going to make him turn up at an event exclusively to see it. Thats what the Vulcan did
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Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby Alanko on Fri 30 Jun 2017, 3:24 pm

My grandmother remembers seeing a Harrier display, circa 2000, at East Fortune. She mostly remembers the noise! She's not an aviation enthusiast by any means, but fast things and loud things leave their impression on people. I think I saw a Harrier display twice, and they were gone before I ever got a chance to see them again. I also remember the noise!

Actually the last time I saw my Grandmother she was talking about the first proper holiday she ever went on. She flew from Southend to Greece in a Viking (she remembered the spar running through the cabin) with several stops along the way. At one point they apparently passed near enough to Vesuvius to peer down into the crater. The whole flight sounded like a hairy operation, not improved when I discovered the total number of Viking losses (about 30% of all built).
Alanko

Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby CJS on Fri 30 Jun 2017, 3:28 pm

NickB - you'll see a Phantom (2 I believe) flying in the UK in a little under week.

Must agree with Dan about RIAT. For whatever reason, the Sea Vixen hasn't appeared since (briefly) 2009. Likewise there has been the potential for the Swedish Historic Flight's aircraft (prior to any regulatory changes) but they've never been booked.

So there's no given that a Harrier would be booked by RIAT. Perhaps especially because the possibility still exists to tempt an operational one to the show, a la the Spanish Matador at Farnborough a few years ago.

RIAT does see its fair share of static classic jets though (Hunter, JP/Strikemaster, Magister, Canberra, Meteor have all appeared in recent years - or will this - plus of course operational Phantoms from the continent which would be deemed classic jets if UK based) with the occasional stellar flying example (the Meteor in (?) 2013 for example, as well as '558). The Norwegian Vampires are a regular sight elsewhere too.

But someone needs perhaps to admit that the risk in taking on such a project is so huge as to be questionable I think.
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Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby NickB on Fri 30 Jun 2017, 3:35 pm

CJS wrote:NickB - you'll see a Phantom (2 I believe) flying in the UK in a little under week.


I was of course referring a Phantom operated for display purposes only... not a military operated example.

Don't get me wrong - I'd love to see one flying, but it ain't gonna happen.

I'm not sure a Harrier would be allowed by the CAA either - not a great safety record in service and single engined only - when that Pegasus goes 'pop' the Harrier has a serious sink rate...
NickB

Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby borismorris on Fri 30 Jun 2017, 7:35 pm

I appreciate the thread has moved on a bit but just to return to the Lightning point..

I was maybe 6-7 years old when I first saw a Lightning take off on a sunny day at RAF Valley.. That sound, that pointy nose. The sight of two afterburners - one on top of the other. That moment when suddenly it pulled up into the vertical and revealed that swept wing geometry and that climb which didnt stop until it was a mere speck in the blue sky.

That moment is etched on my subconscious.

Many years later, when I first saw the Lightning in the Cold War museum in Cosford in its glorious vertical position I nearly bit through my lip to prevent my 40 year old self bursting in to tears of joy.

I frequently saw the same effect on grown men with the Vulcan and I genuinely believe that in the pigs might fly chance that a Lightning were to fly in the UK again it would undoubtebly have THAT effect on a whole new generation..

Its an absolute travesty that youngsters today may never get the chance.
borismorris

Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby CJS on Fri 30 Jun 2017, 8:17 pm

borismorris wrote:I appreciate the thread has moved on a bit but just to return to the Lightning point..

I was maybe 6-7 years old when I first saw a Lightning take off on a sunny day at RAF Valley.. That sound, that pointy nose. The sight of two afterburners - one on top of the other. That moment when suddenly it pulled up into the vertical and revealed that swept wing geometry and that climb which didnt stop until it was a mere speck in the blue sky.

That moment is etched on my subconscious.

Many years later, when I first saw the Lightning in the Cold War museum in Cosford in its glorious vertical position I nearly bit through my lip to prevent my 40 year old self bursting in to tears of joy.

I frequently saw the same effect on grown men with the Vulcan and I genuinely believe that in the pigs might fly chance that a Lightning were to fly in the UK again it would undoubtebly have THAT effect on a whole new generation..

Its an absolute travesty that youngsters today may never get the chance.


Really?

I wonder, has there always been this level of sentimentality about aircraft that we used to see and now don't? Will we feel the same when the Tornado stops flying? Why don't we get quite so misty eyed about seeing Hunters, Strikemasters, Vampires or Meteors? Is it because we genuinely miss the Lightning, Harrier, Phantom more, or is it precisely because we don't see them any more that we so yearn to do so again?

Did the Vulcan and Sea Vixen (should that be does for the SV) get us all rose tinted because they were (are??) the only ones of their type still flying?

Just interesting (to me anyway) when you consider what classic jets there are still appearing at airshows, yet so many people fawn over one that will (almost certainly) never fly again, one that we hope will but now may not, and a whole bunch that (let's be realistic here) never will again in the UK.

RIAT this year has (at least) a Magister, JP, Bronco (not a jet I know, but in the same bracket heritage wise), Strikemaster and was going to have a Hunter, so there are plenty that fit the classic jet bracket, yet they are (to all intents and purposes) ignored. Bur if it was the last Strikemaster, the only Magister - would that make them suddenly more desirable?

I :dunno: the answers, I'm just interested in what people think...
"Forewarned is forearmed"
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Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby FGR2 on Fri 30 Jun 2017, 8:31 pm

The Lightning is a Cold War icon, and would have some wider pull with the public, but is apparently difficult to maintain. In-flight fires were always a problem, even with the experience of years of RAF operations and British Aerospace support.

The tragic accident in South Africa just underlined how quickly things can escalate with the Lightning. That is why we will never see one flying here.

The only aircraft with a hope of getting in the air from the 1960s era is the Canberra PR9. No one seems interested in buying it though, which is a shame as the Canberra is historically a very significant aircraft :(
FGR2

Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby borismorris on Fri 30 Jun 2017, 8:43 pm

I can only speak for myself of course.. but for me the Lightning just has Wow factor.
It looks different to mostly anything else you see (did see) at UK airshows.. it did things that most other aircraft didnt and its a shiny beast to boot.

The Lightning (in the same way as the Sea Vixen) stands out from crowd visually. It also happens to be a bloomin loud un. :grin:
borismorris

Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Sat 01 Jul 2017, 9:13 am

Jets of 1950s/60s vintage have a soul and a character which modern aircraft can't match. Typhoons, F-22s and F-35s look what they are, computer designed lumps. A Hunter or a Lightning looks like it was designed and built by craftsmen, in the same way an E-Type Jaguar gets the pulse racing more than a modern car of the same marque.

This, and of course nostalgia, is why people want to see these types back in the air.

It won't happen though, at least not in the UK. Not since you-know-who at you-know-where. Before that, I thought a Buccaneer was realistic, now we should just be grateful a couple of wafty Jet Provosts are still active.
Dan O'Hagan

Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby DerekF on Sat 01 Jul 2017, 9:58 am

It is unlikely permission would be granted to fly a Lightning in the UK. The Lightning may have been "iconic" and had "character", whatever they might mean but it also had a terrible safety record in RAF service. Something that is unlikely to be improved by being out of service for nearly 30 years. While it would be great to see one flying again, it will take an accountable manager with considerable "cojones" to sign that one off.

The Sea Vixen may not have a much public recognition but as far as I was concerned it had a reputation simply not appearing when promised. If its regular reliability problems are indicative of operating cold-war jets then it is going to take an awful lot of money and effort to get anything similar in the air again.

With the modern regulatory structure and risk averse nature of duty holders it's a miracle a brand new aircraft ever flies far less a vintage one.
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Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby Cole on Sat 01 Jul 2017, 11:28 am

FGR2 wrote:The Lightning is a Cold War icon, and would have some wider pull with the public, but is apparently difficult to maintain. In-flight fires were always a problem, even with the experience of years of RAF operations and British Aerospace support.

The tragic accident in South Africa just underlined how quickly things can escalate with the Lightning. That is why we will never see one flying here.

The only aircraft with a hope of getting in the air from the 1960s era is the Canberra PR9. No one seems interested in buying it though, which is a shame as the Canberra is historically a very significant aircraft :(


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Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby Adie1980 on Sat 01 Jul 2017, 12:21 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:Jets of 1950s/60s vintage have a soul and a character which modern aircraft can't match. Typhoons, F-22s and F-35s look what they are, computer designed lumps. A Hunter or a Lightning looks like it was designed and built by craftsmen, in the same way an E-Type Jaguar gets the pulse racing more than a modern car of the same marque.

This, and of course nostalgia, is why people want to see these types back in the air.

It won't happen though, at least not in the UK. Not since you-know-who at you-know-where. Before that, I thought a Buccaneer was realistic, now we should just be grateful a couple of wafty Jet Provosts are still active.


Whilst I agree on a certain level regarding modern jet fighters, I have to disagree with your point when it comes to the French Rafale.
That is a beautifully sculpted machine with plenty of character, in my opinion.
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Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Sat 01 Jul 2017, 12:43 pm

I don't believe I mentioned the Rafale, which as anyone can see is a beautiful aeroplane. However, the point remains for the bulk of western modern military aircraft - soulless and dull. See the ghastly Gripen for example.
Dan O'Hagan

Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby Thumper on Sat 01 Jul 2017, 6:04 pm

It's a sad end to the mighty Sea Vixen but I think it needs to be just that, an end, with dignity (so to speak). I for one cannot take yet another year of "we need your money" for an aircraft again. The Sea Vixen was a great aircraft to watch, the pilot flew her fantastically, I will always remember the Sea Vixen Enthusiasts Day at Yeovilton, the pilot chucked that hoofing great plane around like it was a Gnat.

I've seen some of the best aircraft in the air in my lifetime from Lightnings to the Vulcan, Phantoms to the Jaguar and the Harrier to Concorde. Times have changed, I will quote DanO because it is a valid point, vintage jets are indeed considered toxic, by the gutter press, the CAA and some public. It's probably time for the FNHT (or Navy Wings) to concentrate preserving the Swordfish, Sea Fury, Chipmunk etc before they become far too "dangerous", it was only a few weeks ago that Navy Wings were asking for money to get the Sea Vixen in the air, they struggled to raise £150,000 for that (current total at £24,320) they won't be raising £2-3m anytime soon. With a Sea Hawk sat there waiting for their attention and funds I think that is the far better move forwards.
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Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby MicrolightDriver on Sun 02 Jul 2017, 12:06 pm

I hope the Sea Vixen is restored and flies again at UK airshows. I think it would show a horrible lack of ambition to give up on such a marvellous aircraft prematurely and before it's actually proven to be too difficult! Sometimes I think 'realism' is a convenient cloak for apathy and idleness.

Navy Wings' statement seems to show an awareness that 'crowd-funding' is not the answer for the Sea Vixen this time, so either they'll get their 'White Knight' or not. That they wouldn't at least try, and simply accept 'defeat' without a fight, would seem rather pathetic.
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Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby DonaldGrump on Sun 02 Jul 2017, 12:23 pm

MicrolightDriver wrote:I hope the Sea Vixen is restored and flies again at UK airshows. I think it would show a horrible lack of ambition to give up on such a marvellous aircraft prematurely and before it's actually proven to be too difficult! Sometimes I think 'realism' is a convenient cloak for apathy and idleness.

Navy Wings' statement seems to show an awareness that 'crowd-funding' is not the answer for the Sea Vixen this time, so either they'll get their 'White Knight' or not. That they wouldn't at least try, and simply accept 'defeat' without a fight, would seem rather pathetic.


Wise words amidst the avalanche of doom defeatism and utter nonsense.
DonaldGrump

Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby VIGILANTERA5C on Sun 02 Jul 2017, 12:37 pm

I also wish to see it return to flight , however to offer it up to a" White night" potential of a repaint job , Similar to what it had under sponsorship in the past would be tantamount to vandalism
IMHO.

A beautiful Machine in an awesome scheme that deserves to be in the air .

What is it with RN Historic ac ?, how many times I have been to shows waiting to see the Sea hawk fly , or a Swordfish or 2 fly or a Sea Fury only to hear the announcement sorry , us. re build went on a bit etc , etc, over the past 20 years and more I am talking about here . Now we have the Saga Of the Sea Vixen to add to that list , Tragic , even if we were blessed with many other vintage jets , which we are not , simply tragic . Burned into my Memory as it Burned into the Runway .
Remember one display years back in the Rain in Brady , how the pilot could even see outside the windscreen I do not know and he still threw it about , Please put it Back Up.
VIGILANTERA5C

Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby HeyfordDave111 on Sun 02 Jul 2017, 12:54 pm

If Mr Branson or Mr Dyson want their name on this aircraft and it painted in lime green for, say, 2 years for the pleasure of paying for the repairs, then that's perfectly fine by me.

It means the aircraft stays airworthy for years to come, and basically that's all that really matters.
Got to love Russianhardware
HeyfordDave111

Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby VIGILANTERA5C on Sun 02 Jul 2017, 1:11 pm

Lime Green would be , like , Trek Mountain bike Sponsorship.

Red , Silver , Blue and Yellow even in the Austrian Alps and I saw it there myself ,no thanks .

Branson , say red and White , could work , as for Mr Dyson , not sure what company colours he would wish for , let me check , now where's my Dyson gone ?, had it in my hand an hour ago ? bloody thing.
VIGILANTERA5C

Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby Offbreed on Sun 02 Jul 2017, 3:31 pm

Cillit Bang purple and orange for the win :heyhey:
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Re: Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

Postby VIGILANTERA5C on Sun 02 Jul 2017, 3:45 pm

Classic. lol. :clap:
VIGILANTERA5C

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