More F-35 woes...

[Russ]

Funny, only a few weeks later so truth comes out about the alleged F-35 wing drop problems...

http://aviationweek.com/defense/f-35-flies-against-f-16-basic-fighter-maneuvers

With the full flight envelope now opened to an altitude of 50,000 ft., speeds of Mach 1.6/700 KCAS and loads of 9g, test pilots also say improvements to the flight control system have rendered the transonic roll-off (TRO) issue tactically irrelevant. Highlighted as a “program concern” in the Defense Department’s Director of Operational Test and Evaluation (DOT&E) 2014 report, initial flight tests showed that all three F-35 variants experienced some form of wing drop in high-speed turns associated with asymmetrical movements of shock waves. However, TRO “has evolved into a non-factor,” says Nelson, who likens the effect to a momentary “tug” on one shoulder harness. “You have to pull high-g to even find it.” The roll-off phenomena exhibits itself as “less than 10 deg./sec. for a fraction of a second. We have been looking for a task it affects and we can’t find one.”

In addition....

test pilots say the aircraft can be cleared for greater agility as a growth option.

So basically, the design is actually better than they thought it was.

Of course nobody would mention any of the above on here, would they.

[aviodromefriend]

Of course nobody would mention any of the above on here, would they.

Well, nobody Russ did, didn't he?

[john001]

Well it all depends on if anyone believes, or not, PR speak.

[Black Projects]

It seems the US Navy has Problems with DAVE there New DAVE Only Carrier is going into dry Dock for almost a year as it can not Handle DAVE"s RE-Heat on the deck (Burns holes through it)

Is a Purpose built DAVE Carrier yet can not handle DAVE!


http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/navy-b ... 1697523492

[IgnatiusJReilly]

Correspondents from the US casting admiring glances at our QE carriers?
Whatever next?

But, hell, the F35 is shaping up to be the mother of all shambles...

[IgnatiusJReilly]

The ongoing tale of woe that is the F35, does give this article some credence;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32290224

[Brevet Cable]

US Government Report on The F135 Engine problems :
http://www.dodig.mil/pubs/documents/DODIG-2015-111.pdf

Just had a quick scan through it........lots of criticism from the DoD of both P&W and the F-35 team , lots of denials from P&W and the F-35 team.


And for a bit more entertainment......
http://www.gao.gov/assets/670/669619.pdf

The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program had to make unexpected changes to its development and test plans over the last year, largely in response to a structural failure on a durability test aircraft, an engine failure, and software challenges.
At the same time, engine reliability is poor and has a long way to go to meet program goals.
With nearly 2 years and 40 percent of developmental testing to go, more technical problems are likely.
Addressing new problems and improving engine reliability may require additional design changes and retrofits.
Meanwhile, the Department of Defense (DOD) has plans to increase annual aircraft procurement from 38 to 90 over the next 5 years.
As GAO has previously reported, increasing production while concurrently developing and testing creates risk and could result in additional cost growth and schedule delays in the future.
Cost and affordability challenges remain.
DOD plans to significantly increase annual F-35 funding from around $8 billion to nearly $12 billion over the next 5 years (see figure) reaching $14 billion in 2022 and remaining between $14 and $15 billion for nearly a decade. Over the last year, DOD reduced near-term aircraft procurement by 4 aircraft, largely due to budget constraints.
While these deferrals may lower annual near-term funding needs, they will likely increase the cost of aircraft procured in that time frame and may increase funding liability in the future.
It is unlikely the program will be able to sustain such a high level of annual funding and if required funding levels are not reached, the program’s procurement plan may not be affordable.
DOD policy requires affordability analyses to inform long-term investment decisions.
The consistent changes in F-35 procurement plans indicate that DOD’s prior analyses did not adequately account for future technical and funding uncertainty.

[Brevet Cable]

So.....Egypt , India & Quatar have all opted to buy Rafales.
Guess they don't have much confidence in the 'dodgy Dave' , then.

[barkin mad]

So.....Egypt , India & Quatar have all opted to buy Rafales.
Guess they don't have much confidence in the 'dodgy Dave' , then.

India may want Rafales but nothing is signed yet.


-----------

[stratocaster]

I'm still saying Navy Phoons At least Rafales are proven!

[Russ]

So.....Egypt , India & Quatar have all opted to buy Rafales.
Guess they don't have much confidence in the 'dodgy Dave' , then.

Or in reality, the F-35 isn't available for export to those nations.

[Tommy]

So.....Egypt , India & Quatar have all opted to buy Rafales.
Guess they don't have much confidence in the 'dodgy Dave' , then.

Or in reality, the F-35 isn't available for export to those nations.

Indeed - and speaking of India (apologies if I'm having a bit of a brain-fart, here), iirc the F-35 was never even part of the MMRCA competition (though I think the option of a sale of F-35s as F-16 replacements was part of the F-16IN bid), so it seems a bit unfair to criticise the aircraft for not being selected in a competition that they didn't take part in.

You could also flip that argument on its head and say that Israel, Japan and South Korea (the nine partner countries notwithstanding) do have confidence in the aircraft.

Or to go further, that Egypt, India & Qatar also don't have confidence in the JAS-39E & F models, or the latest block versions of the F-16, or the Super Hornet, or the MiG-35 or indeed the Typhoon.

To me, three countries choosing the Rafale, is not a specific indictment against the F-35...

But meh.. what do I know...

[Red Dragon]

So.....Egypt , India & Quatar have all opted to buy Rafales.
Guess they don't have much confidence in the 'dodgy Dave' , then.

Or in reality, the F-35 isn't available for export to those nations.

Indeed - and speaking of India (apologies if I'm having a bit of a brain-fart, here), iirc the F-35 was never even part of the MMRCA competition (though I think the option of a sale of F-35s as F-16 replacements was part of the F-16IN bid), so it seems a bit unfair to criticise the aircraft for not being selected in a competition that they didn't take part in.

You could also flip that argument on its head and say that Israel, Japan and South Korea (the nine partner countries notwithstanding) do have confidence in the aircraft.

Or to go further, that Egypt, India & Qatar also don't have confidence in the JAS-39E & F models, or the latest block versions of the F-16, or the Super Hornet, or the MiG-35 or indeed the Typhoon.

To me, three countries choosing the Rafale, is not a specific indictment against the F-35...

But meh.. what do I know...

Taking it one step further, Egypt, India & Qatar needed to replace Dassault Mirage 2000 with Dassault Rafale, It's might be "brand loyalty", with maybe a discount for loyalty.....

[IgnatiusJReilly]

I'm still saying Navy Phoons

On the face of it, a 'navalised' Typhoon makes a lot of sense, but it's not as simple as just sticking a hook on an airframe...
There was a good article on the web, which went in some length as to why the Typhoon can't be adapted. Basically, you'd be re-designing from scratch...
If I can find it again, I'll share the link.

and on top of that, you'd be putting a Cat back on the QE..

[stratocaster]

I'm still saying Navy Phoons

On the face of it, a 'navalised' Typhoon makes a lot of sense, but it's not as simple as just sticking a hook on an airframe...
There was a good article on the web, which went in some length as to why the Typhoon can't be adapted. Basically, you'd be re-designing from scratch...
If I can find it again, I'll share the link.

and on top of that, you'd be putting a Cat back on the QE..

No worries!

[Russ]

The concept of a Naval Typhoon was pretty ridiculous when it was first proposed, it's even more so now.

Some thoughts....

- Cost of fitting CAT and TRAP to the QE Class Carriers = £2billion
- New Eurojet Thrust Vectored engines needed. Unfunded and not developed.
- Airframe would need strengthening and ultimately become heavier, such as a stronger undercarriage and hook.
- Heavier airframe means a reduced thrust-to-weight ratio. Also the combat radius or possible payload would most likely be reduced. So it may need CFT's to increase the range = heavier airframe again.
- When would it happen? Production lines are full of existing Typhoons.
- Factor in inevitable technical problems, cost overuns and delays.
- Ultimately, you'd be trying to make an aircraft never designed for carrier ops. Square peg, round hole.
- Still gives the enemy a big radar return to shoot at.
- Increased CAT and TRAP operating costs.
- Cancelling the F-35B would be a significant loss to British innovation and Business.
- It would absolutely be like starting again.

There is no way, it would be available cheaper or a better solution, than an aircraft flying designed to work with the QE carriers and which also is LO. You'd have to be a madman to think it would be.

[ericbee123]

The concept of a Naval Typhoon was pretty ridiculous when it was first proposed, it's even more so now.


There is no way, it would be available cheaper or a better solution, than an aircraft flying designed to work with the QE carriers and which also is LO. You'd have to be a madman to think it would be.

Not to mention that would change the UK Fast Jet spotting opportunities to be just Typhoon Variants ( one of which will have a hook ) , instead of Typhoon variants ( none of which will have a hook ) and F-35s ( possibly variants in the future, maybe some 'A's).

Also meaning if Typhoon was grounded the whole UK FJ fleet would be grounded if we just had Typhoon and Sea-Typhoon.

[Vodka]

The UK is a Tier 1 supplier and customer !

Forget any talk of a alternative, you could literally manufacture 3 new QE class aircraft carriers alone with Cat Traps from the financial penalties alone!

[Flankerman]

I thought that the QE carriers could not be fitted with cats?? - because the RR Tyne engines are not able to produce steam.

And the alternative EMALS isn't mature enough yet.....

So STOVL is the only option currently.

Ken

[Vodka]

Don't necessary need the Tynes to produce the steam. The choice for STOVL was simply a New Labour naive one that the con-iibdems did consider too reverse. Albeit a no-go with costs involved.

[Russ]

The choice for STOVL was simply a New Labour naive one that the con-iibdems did consider too reverse.

Actually the Tories signed up for the project in 1995.

[boff180]

I thought that the QE carriers could not be fitted with cats?? - because the RR Tyne engines are not able to produce steam.

And the alternative EMALS isn't mature enough yet.....

So STOVL is the only option currently.

Ken

EMALS are mature enough, I understood the issue was the QE was supposed to have been designed for EMALS to be retrofitted if required in the future. When they came to add them on the back of the F-35C decision it was discovered the design hadn't taken account of the retrofit requirement and the cost was ludicrous to retrofit. The result - we reverted back to the B

[Vodka]

frankly though. . if labour get in today. . it may well end up having a complete STALL rather than STOVL

[Brevet Cable]

Remind us again who was in Goverment when the decision was made to switch from F-35B/STOVOL to F-35C/CATOBAR and then reverse that decision a couple of years later , thus putting the project years behind schedule & wasting £millions .....not to mention decimating the Armed Forces in recent years.

[ericbee123]

The problem was, I believe, that although The QE Class was originally designed for, but not with, Cat and Trap it was also designed with a 'normal' deck so they could cut holes in it and have space underneath it for the cat and trap stuff. The F-35B would have melted this normal deck, it was found out after tests after the F-35B had flown, so it got modified to a super duper heat resistant deck, which has had to use some of the space below as well ( I guess ). The US Marine carriers "designed for" the F-35 have lost underdeck space and also now only have a few "heat resistant spots" the F-35B can land on also because of this.

As the F-35B melts where it lands, is heavy, has a lower range and lower payload than the F-35C, and as the QE was, according to its literature, designed for Cat And Trap the move to F-35C was a logical move, given the F-35B was different to expected ( I am guessing nobody expected it to generate so much heat on landing - otherwise it wouldn't have been a surprise to the designers of the QE and the US Marines carriers ). It only became apparent that replacing the "new" deck and adding Cat and Trap wasn't as easy as advertised at this time. It also looked like the F-35B could being canned by the US anyway , as the carriers they designed for it, look like they are going to struggle to handle them anyway ( if one wipes out on one of the landing spots it could be a disaster for any others in the air and looking for somewhere they won't sink when they come down - that could be a ships deck or the sea if the ship doesn't have a heat resistant spot to support them). If the US did (or does) abandon the STOVL variant, then without Cat and Trap we are building the biggest Helicopter Carriers in the world.

Anyway if we want to get political, today of all days, then the cuts might be because of overspending and over or over borrowing of the previous government.