UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby Ewart on Fri 08 Dec 2017, 5:57 pm

I don't often post.

But has anyone else thought UK HAT is a silly name for a aviation based idea.
Probably more suited to a trip to Manchester (http://www.thehatmuseum.com) than a trip to Shuttleworth/Duxford/etc.
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Ewart

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby robterry99 on Sat 09 Dec 2017, 6:02 pm

Tommy wrote:I wish this group well, I really do, which is why I've taken a not insignificant amount of time to write an extensive post that will likely be read by no-one


Tommy,

I read it. Thank you.

It's an eloquent, well rounded, honest post which I hope others will read, not least the UKHAT "staff" themselves. They appear to be blundering ahead without much of a plan, unwilling to fund any of their ventures and expecting the general public to hand over money to a so-called-Trust which has presumably failed in its attempt to become a registered charity. (in other news, APRES finally admitted today that they too failed to become a charity, quelle surprise!)

I was particularly amused to see HeyfordDave111 say that UKHAT are "coming across as 16 year old keyboard warriors"
- I think that's giving them more credit than they deserve, particularly as Matthew "Communications" Lear doesn't actually turn 16 until next summer. :roll:

Did anyone go to the UKHAT-organised talk by Barry Masefield at Baginton Village Hall last week? I remember seeing it advertised, but then they seemed to get all distracted by that old lump of Herald at Gatwick. Did it actually happen?

Rob
robterry99

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby Skymonster on Sat 09 Dec 2017, 7:26 pm

robterry99 wrote:Did anyone go to the UKHAT-organised talk by Barry Masefield at Baginton Village Hall last week? I remember seeing it advertised, but then they seemed to get all distracted by that old lump of Herald at Gatwick. Did it actually happen?


It was cancelled - if I remember correctly, due to insufficient ticket sales, blamed on the proximity of the event to Christmas which they claimed meant likely attendees would have other things in their diary. First week in December - I'm not convinced of the validity of that argument. I did wonder - if they can't even organise a talk in a village hall, what hope anything more significant?

I had hopes for the rescue of the Herald at Gatwick when a Facebook group was first formed to encourage those with a like-minded view to get together to discuss what could be done. However, what appeared to be a disparate group with a common objective soon morphed into something that UKHAT muscled into - or maybe they were behind from the start, but initially it wasn't apparent. It certainly seems that some UKHATers have self-appointed themselves to lead the "project".

Sadly I now have far less hope that the aircraft will be rescued. Initially I was surprised that UKHAT was involved, as preserving an airliner which will never fly again seems far from the originally stated objectives of the "trust". Moreover, I didn't have much confidence they would be able to achieve their original objectives, and the way they have gone about the Herald project leaves me with no greater faith in what they are attempting to do now. They've already talked about an aircraft with no engines taxiing again - good luck sourcing some serviceable Darts at a reasonable price. And that's before the airframe has been surveyed and confirmed as salvageable at a realistic cost and with reasonable effort. If nothing else, I think UKHAT needs to walk before it tries to run. And now the cackhanded fundraising attempt - to buy merchandise to sell. Huh? All things being equal, I would have done what I could (however little that was) to help preserve a Herald, but now in my mind I've consigned the airframe back to the "lost" category. I believed / hoped there was a chance, but given their track record so far, I don't have much faith now with UKHAT running the show.
Skymonster

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby Skymonster on Sat 09 Dec 2017, 8:08 pm

The Herald's Facebook group is apparently being shut down this weekend in favour of a Facebook page. But at the end of October Duncan Halford posted: "...the fire service ultimately want to see her go to a new home they are not going to give her up lightly or to just any group, and were very interested to hear that we wanted to restore her to a high standard and keep her at the airport for as long as possible whilst at least some of that restoration takes place to CAA standards. They want to help us in any way they can so further more detailed discussions will now have to take place..."

On the justgiving page they are using to attempt to raise funds for merchandise which was set up just a day or two ago: "UKHAT have been given the opportunity to restore XP to her former glory by the Gatwick Airport Fire Service and we hope to move the aircraft to another airfield in the foreseeable future."

There had been no formal indication in between those two statements that UKHAT has actually got the go ahead from the Gatwick Fire Service... Did the detailed discussions take place? Was a conclusion reached that means UKHAT is indeed now officially and recognisely in the driving seat? Has a structural survey taken place, or are they attempting to raise funds agains something that could potentially be a no-hoper? Or when they say on the justgiving page they have "been given the opportunity", is that wishful thinking at this stage? And anyway, why does a non-flyer need to be restored to "CAA standards"?

Seems to me to becoming more and more like a VTTS-style fiasco... And VTTS are a trust.
Skymonster

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby robterry99 on Sat 09 Dec 2017, 8:17 pm

In response to the announcement of their ham-fisted fundraiser (https://www.facebook.com/hpheraldcexp/p ... 0387968215) someone asked the question "Do you have to pay for the herald or has it been gifted by the fire svc???"

The response was that "She will be gifted to the Trust. We are not pushing to take ownership at this stage because the fire service don't pay ground rent and there is a chance we would have to. She is safe where she is for the foreseeable future."

I do wonder if the Gatwick Fire Service know that the "trust" they're going to gift an aircraft to isn't a trust at all, nor is it a charity. It's nothing more than a jobbing gardener and a schoolboy who have very little knowledge or credibility when it comes to aircraft preservation and restoration.
robterry99

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby CJS on Sat 09 Dec 2017, 8:20 pm

I think the whole fiasco, debacle, attempt, whatever you want to call it that UKHAT has got itself into is a stark reminder of the perils of social media. Don't get me wrong, it can be an extremely powerful way of getting your ideas across and for galvanizing support and raising funds for whatever your cause is.

Unfortunately the flipside of that - which is what UKHAT appear to have fallen and be falling into big time - is that if you don't have everything properly thought out and considered in advance you end up looking like you really don't have a clue what you're doing. And it's there from day one for all to see for the rest of forever.

20 years ago it could never have happened like this and almost certainly UKHAT would have got nowhere. Even more nowhere than they have got now.

I have nothing but admiration for anyone who wants to keep or restore historic aircraft, but you really really can't go about it like this, otherwise I'm afraid you're doomed to fail.

I just hope they realise and either change drastically and quickly or jack it in before they or anyone else starts throwing money at their projects, because there is little (nothing) to suggest that money is going to actually get anything done any time soon (ever).

Sorry to be negative (I'm not usually) but I'm struggling to see how this can end well if it carries on.
"Forewarned is forearmed"
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CJS

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby Brevet Cable on Sat 09 Dec 2017, 8:58 pm

Skymonster wrote:Seems to me to becoming more and more like a VTTS-style fiasco... And VTTS are a trust.

That would be VTST ( and it's earlier incarnations ) who did restore and return an aircraft to flight, and operated it for several years...... :whistle: :lol:
Not the best example you could have chosen, to be honest :biggrin:

There have been plenty of individuals & groups over the years who've sprung into existence with the stated intention of restoring an airframe(s) either to flight operation or as a museum exhibit.
Many never really got off the ground ( no pun intended )
Some got as far as purchasing an airframe.
Most of those ceased to exist pretty quickly whilst some lingered on before failing, often with a disastrous outcome for the airframe(s) they'd purchased.
Others adapted to circumstances and changed their ambitions to match.
Some still exist and - years later - are still working towards their goals.

Which category does UKHAT fall into ?
Whilst I'd like to see any restoration project succeed, sadly I feel they fall into the first category.
I also have the same doubts about TMPT ( or whatever they're called )
Brevet.. Meh !!
Not an enthusiast or a spotter
trollpikken fforwm swyddogol
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Brevet Cable

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby Berf on Sat 09 Dec 2017, 9:40 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:Many never really got off the ground ( no pun intended )
Some got as far as purchasing an airframe.
Most of those ceased to exist pretty quickly whilst some lingered on before failing, often with a disastrous outcome for the airframe(s) they'd purchased.
Others adapted to circumstances and changed their ambitions to match.
Some still exist and - years later - are still working towards their goals.



I reckon the MOD fits all of those. :smile:
Berf

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby Duncan Halford on Sun 24 Dec 2017, 9:57 am

Hello All

First of all I would like to wish you all a happy Christmas. Because of the comments about UKHAT on another thread over the last few days I felt it was time to raise my profile and engage with you all and hope that we can keep comments about UKHAT just to this thread.

Unfortunately, some individuals still seem to think that UKHAT is just Matthew and I, in fact this has never been the case and actually there are eight of us now Nigel Powton, Jem Shaw, Pete Jenness, Jason Cotton, Clive Grievson and of course not forgetting my wife Gill Halford.

This forms the working committee and there are others who have offered help at air shows and other events.

Reading back over some of the comments I have to say that some will be treated with the contempt they deserve and will be ignored especially where Matthew and I have been called “Amateur Morons” and the like.

However there have been some very constructive comments and criticisms especially from the likes of “Tommy”, “CJS” “XP282” and Skymonster that deserve replies to as we go on. If I can’t answer the comments straight away I will go away and endeavour to do so as soon as possible but certainly will not be hiding anything.

I read Tommy’s Comments from the 7th December with interest and they have been taken on board and we are working through them. We won’t get everything right first time and I am sure like many other organisations and charities big and small will make mistakes from time to time, we are only human after all, the main thing is we learn from them and continue to develop.

I have gone back over all the comments and though I’m not going to answer them again now, I am happy to try and answer sensible, and most importantly polite questioning going forward. In the same way the guys at the Vulcan Restoration Trust at Southend have been very open and honest especially with their recent unfortunate move out the hangar so we will be as well.

Though our application for Trust status was turned down this was not a flat rejection, it was mostly around wording and costings and them wanting us to have a home in place for the Herald. We have a case officer who is working with us to resolve these issues and after a long phone conversation they are well aware of our Facebook pages, website and our name.

They are happy with our progress, don’t feel we are in any way hiding anything and certainly don’t think we need to change our name at this stage. So once Xmas is out of the way it shouldn’t be too much longer before our application for Trust status is completed.

CJS your comment today on the other thread is one worth trying to answer.

“Take UKHAT for comparison: yes, flawed in some (to others, many. To some, every) respect. But, they at least are engaging with those on here in a professional, albeit somewhat sporadic, way. They at least have just the one person speaking on their behalf, do try to address the questions raised.

We will never please everyone and we are not going to try and I’m sure there are some people on here just waiting for us to fail so they can say “I told you so” However as I have said before we will happily take constructive criticism on board and as we have been doing all this year, listen to people in the heritage aviation world such as Mark Hooton of Vampire WZ507 fame who have far more experience than we do.

This is one of the reasons why we have decided to go for the restoration on a Handley Page Herald at this time and not operate classic jets which need experienced people to help operate. For some the Herald is not worth saving, being of the viewpoint, “It’s only an old airliner”. For others they can’t wait to see her saved and ultimately restored and have expressed lots of interest and have offered help in various ways.

This is going to be a long road and as some have quite rightly pointed out she is lacking most of her instruments and more importantly two engines.
Though our research so far it actually turns out the engines will be the easiest but most certainly not cheapest components to source. A company in South Africa can supply us with two life-expired but certainly suitable for ground running, engines fairly easily. Before people ask, we don’t have a specific cost for these as I’m sure you are all aware, this is not high on the list of priorities at the moment.

We are aiming to have a cleaning day at the end of January for the Herald. In addition, a detailed structural survey will also be undertaken at the same time. In order to facilitate this, we have to work closely with the fire service and Gatwick Airport management because of her current location “airside”, however we will provide a further update once we have a date confirmed.

Many Thanks
Duncan Halford (chairman)
Duncan Halford

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