UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby Ian G on Thu 24 May 2018, 12:16 pm

Just spotted this nugget

Ian Garfield Photography Website!

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I should probably be working. Will work for doughnuts.
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Ian G
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Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby Tommy on Thu 24 May 2018, 12:54 pm

I know it's innocent, but a charity that wants to be taken seriously can't suddenly say "oooh, we've spotted this on Google Earth. What do people think, eh? Shall we add this to the shopping list?" It just makes people uncertain on where their money will go. It creates another reason for people's fingers to pause before clicking the "Donate Now" button. How will this charity deal with someone who wants to contribute £20 to an Argosy recovery, but not the Herald, or vice versa?

Duncan, if you're watching/reading, this is only my opinion, but I think two things should be happening;

Firstly, the current focus needs to be well-defined and concentrated on. For now, UKHAT's chosen that to be the Herald. Maybe if the Herald project is considered a success and it all works out, then you can open yourselves up for new projects and see where the road lies, but for now, you're unproven and to succeed you need to keep yourselves focused on the task at hand. Leave all the ancillary guff you stumble on whilst Googling on a rainy weekend for others to do. If it comes from official accounts, rumours spread. Enthusiasts talk. It's not long before "did you hear about that team that wants to bring the Argosy back and restore it?" If UKHAT then does a cost/analysis on that and realises it's not a viable project, you're basically setting yourself up to have to apologise to people. That might not be fair, because nothing has ever been confirmed, but that's how people are.

Secondly, make decisions. And make them good decisions. Yes, charities are for the public, but no two members of the public are alike. Look at how much chaos is caused when the public are allowed to make decisions. You'll have Argosy McArgosyface in 20 minutes. At their core, a charity has to be able to say "this is what we're doing. We hope you can support us", not "so... what do you guys want us to do?". I don't think there's a successful comparable charity out there that lets random Facebookers make policy decisions.

For better or worse, VTTS made their own decisions. Arguably, they went too far the other way and didn't listen to the weight and consensus of contrary opinion.

I'm exaggerating to make a point, but you don't see HAC, TFC, Old Warden, AirLeasing, VTTS, Biggin Hill and the numerous others posting Google screenshots of some wrecks in California and going "shall we restore this next?". Maurice Hammond didn't decide whether to restore Janie or Marinell ( :sad: ) according to a Twitter poll. ARCo didn't say "lol, 10,000 RTs and we'll restore a Blenheim. #BlenWin"

Aaaaaaanyway. Just my thoughts on the issue. IDK why I type these long posts, but I guess for better or worse I'm intrigued about these start-ups. Or maybe because for all their flaws, these sorts of charities are prepared to lend an ear much more than large ones like VTTS ever does/did.
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Tommy
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Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby CJS on Thu 24 May 2018, 2:03 pm

Excellent comments Tommy (as per!).

Real shame that, after all the constructive (and admittedly sometimes not) advice offered on here - and quite probably elsewhere too - especially regarding social media, press releases, official voice and so on, that something like this still gets out. :facepalm: Trouble is, no-one will actually read the post properly, they will see the gist of it and the poorly circled aircraft and then let rip again.

No charity, company, organisation, event or anything like that should be using social media in such an off the cuff way anymore - not unless it's very deliberately satire (and even then it needs to be done bloody well to actually work to their advantage), can't they see it does them no favours??

Leave the posts like this to individuals, let them make minor prats of themselves online, but don't damage your undoubtedly good intentions with this kind of silliness. :facepalm: :surrender:
"Forewarned is forearmed"
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Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby neilatter on Thu 24 May 2018, 8:55 pm

Interestingly, their JustGiving link on the Herald website now doesn't work - what has happened to the money pledged (albeit, not a very large amount)?

Additionally, there doesn't seem to be any visibility on any costs, either those already incurred, or those that are obvious in the short term. They must have had quotes to extract the airframe by now, it should have been top of the priority list for whether moving the aircraft was even viable and they have had access to the aircraft for a fair while now (apparently).

At least posting these figures plus a proposed budget for the move the St Athan would give some confidence that things are actually moving along in the right direction.
neilatter

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby JetMan on Fri 01 Jun 2018, 12:23 pm

Could Duncan actually confirm once and for all what his position within UKHAT is... I seem to recall him stating that he wasn’t the chairman on this forum, yet a post on the UKHAT Facebook page dated Sunday 27th May is signed off as

Duncan Halford
Chairman UKHAT

See here: https://www.facebook.com/UKHeritageAvia ... 6631580854

Are there actually any set roles for each person in UKHAT, or do you change what each person does with the seasons?
JetMan

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby GertrudetheMerciless on Sat 02 Jun 2018, 12:19 pm

Sadly these groups, who drum up support via the (generally non-expert) inhabitants of social media, do very little to aid the aircraft preservation movement. “Rescuing” rusting hulks, or aircraft in (relatively) secure location and good climates, in varying levels of decay and age, does very little.

I wonder how many groups have been contacted and offered assistance from these groups?
GertrudetheMerciless

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby Brevet Cable on Sat 02 Jun 2018, 1:02 pm

GertrudetheMerciless wrote:“Rescuing” rusting hulks, or aircraft in (relatively) secure location and good climates, in varying levels of decay and age, does very little


Whereas digging up a few bits of rusted, rotten, twisted scrap metal which were once a Spitfire ( or other WW2 fighter ) to indulge in building yet another brand new replica ( sorry, 'data-plate restoration ) does?

People bemoan the fact that there are no examples of 'xyz' aircraft type in existence any more, which is the result of someone not being interested enough to do something when the airframes still existed.
Brevet.. Meh !!
Not an enthusiast or a spotter
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Brevet Cable

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby GertrudetheMerciless on Sat 02 Jun 2018, 2:08 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:
GertrudetheMerciless wrote:“Rescuing” rusting hulks, or aircraft in (relatively) secure location and good climates, in varying levels of decay and age, does very little


Whereas digging up a few bits of rusted, rotten, twisted scrap metal which were once a Spitfire ( or other WW2 fighter ) to indulge in building yet another brand new replica ( sorry, 'data-plate restoration ) does?

People bemoan the fact that there are no examples of 'xyz' aircraft type in existence any more, which is the result of someone not being interested enough to do something when the airframes still existed.


Indeed, but the former example isn’t the best. People will dig up bits of the because there is a market to do so - and rarely does a begging bowl come into the question because they are, and probably always will be, commercially viable.

Essentially things will only work if there is interest; bringing an aircraft “home” from abroad when there are others still in existence already here (unlike say the Bristol Freighter import), or “blanket fundraising” to then allocate money (a poor man’s HLF?) just doesn’t do it for me.
GertrudetheMerciless

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby Duncan Halford on Sat 02 Jun 2018, 6:27 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:
GertrudetheMerciless wrote:“Rescuing” rusting hulks, or aircraft in (relatively) secure location and good climates, in varying levels of decay and age, does very little


Whereas digging up a few bits of rusted, rotten, twisted scrap metal which were once a Spitfire ( or other WW2 fighter ) to indulge in building yet another brand new replica ( sorry, 'data-plate restoration ) does?

People bemoan the fact that there are no examples of 'xyz' aircraft type in existence any more, which is the result of someone not being interested enough

to do something when the airframes still existed.



I like Spitfire and hurricane just like the next person and yes there are already preserved Heralds, Argosy and viscounts etc. However theses are all static examples. We are finding there is a lot of interest in getting our Herald to at least ground running condition.

We do know how much it is going to cost to get XP out of Gatwick and to St Athan, we are attending Cosford next weekend and we are planning to launch our fund raising campaign then
Duncan Halford

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby HeyfordDave111 on Sat 02 Jun 2018, 6:33 pm

OK, so ground running sounds good, but St. Athan? where is your income stream going to come from down there?
Got to love Russianhardware
HeyfordDave111

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby Pringles on Sat 02 Jun 2018, 6:35 pm

JetMan wrote:Could Duncan actually confirm once and for all what his position within UKHAT is... I seem to recall him stating that he wasn’t the chairman on this forum, yet a post on the UKHAT Facebook page dated Sunday 27th May is signed off as

Duncan Halford
Chairman UKHAT

See here: https://www.facebook.com/UKHeritageAvia ... 6631580854

Are there actually any set roles for each person in UKHAT, or do you change what each person does with the seasons?

You've answered Brevet twice but you dodged this one, Duncan :whistle:
If life gives you melons then you're probably dyslexic
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Pringles

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby Duncan Halford on Sat 02 Jun 2018, 7:15 pm

Pringles wrote:
JetMan wrote:Could Duncan actually confirm once and for all what his position within UKHAT is... I seem to recall him stating that he wasn’t the chairman on this forum, yet a post on the UKHAT Facebook page dated Sunday 27th May is signed off as

Duncan Halford
Chairman UKHAT

See here: https://www.facebook.com/UKHeritageAvia ... 6631580854

Are there actually any set roles for each person in UKHAT, or do you change what each person does with the seasons?

You've answered Brevet twice but you dodged this one, Duncan :whistle:


Hello Pringles

I have always been the chairman, I came up the with idea for UKHAT and instigated it's formation. Unfortunately there was a cock up on the charities commission application which meant I was not put down as a trustee to start with. That has all now been sorted and we have also added Jem Shaw as a Trustee as well as myself.
Duncan Halford

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby Duncan Halford on Sat 02 Jun 2018, 7:17 pm

HeyfordDave111 wrote:OK, so ground running sounds good, but St. Athan? where is your income stream going to come from down there?


Hello Dave

As well as funding from Airshows, merchandise and members club we are also looking for corporate sponsorship and we hope to be able to open a small museum down there.
Duncan Halford

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby Pringles on Sat 02 Jun 2018, 7:58 pm

Duncan Halford wrote:Unfortunately there was a cock up on the charities commission application which meant I was not put down as a trustee to start with.

Well that just inspires confidence :tumbleweed:
If life gives you melons then you're probably dyslexic
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Pringles

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby Duncan Halford on Sat 02 Jun 2018, 8:09 pm

Pringles wrote:
Duncan Halford wrote:Unfortunately there was a cock up on the charities commission application which meant I was not put down as a trustee to start with.

Well that just inspires confidence :tumbleweed:


Thankfully it turned out to be a small error but just took the charities commission ages to sort as they had a four month back log at the time. I'm sure there are plenty of examples of charities making some silly mistakes and have gone on to great things.
Duncan Halford

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby JetMan on Sat 02 Jun 2018, 8:52 pm

Perhaps Duncan would like to re-read what he posted previously in this thread...

Airspeed wrote:
Duncan Halford wrote:Hi Airspeed,

I’m not sure what you want me to clarify, as the Charity Commission entry is obviously the definitive status. The charity was originally set up by Nigel and myself, with our original roles being agreed at an early stage.

As we’ve moved forward, and the new charity has grown into a reality, we’ve made several changes to suit its evolution. One of these was for Nigel to become chairman.

Airspeed wrote:Duncan, could you please clarify the current status of the UKHAT and confirm who is Chairman?

In recent posts you have signed messages as Duncan Halford (Chairman). However, the recent registration of UKHAT with the Charity Commission records the Chair as being a Nigel Powton, with the only other Trustee being a Mrs Gillian Halford.

Here is a link to Charity Commission website detailing this information and to see the specific details to which I refer, please click on the "People" tab within the page:
http://beta.charitycommission.gov.uk/ch ... 41&subid=0


Duncan

I am astounded that you question why I sought clarification. As a result of my question you have just now confirmed on here that you are not the Chairman. In posts on here up until today you have signed yourself as the Chairman of UKHAT. I can't find mention on this Forum that, before I queried it, you advised readers that there has been any change to that status. I yesterday checked the Charity Commission website and found that you are NOT recorded on there as the Chair. It seems pretty fundamental that the credibility and authority of the content of posts is bound up with the official status of people if they say they represent an organisation. Surely it is important to advise readers of your change (if that is the case) of status. Were you ever registered with the Commission as Chair of the Trust or were you only Chair prior to it becoming formally registered with the Charity Commission? Have you ever been a formal Trustee of UKHAT? What precisely is your role now with UKHAT? I am not trying to undermine UKHAT's aims or efforts, merely trying to get some clarity over its Officerships, so I can gauge the authority and credibility of announcements made by individuals on behalf of UKHAT.
JetMan

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby CJS on Sat 02 Jun 2018, 9:00 pm

It is a little...what's the right word here? Confusing will do it I think.

You can't both be the chairman (or maybe you can, I dunno...), but you both seem to be. Taking it in turns?
"Forewarned is forearmed"
How do you know I didn't?
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CJS

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby Brevet Cable on Sat 02 Jun 2018, 9:46 pm

HeyfordDave111 wrote:OK, so ground running sounds good, but St. Athan? where is your income stream going to come from down there?

To get it back to ground-running condition in the first place, presumably.
As a guess, GJA Aerotech ( as opposed to HAS, who tend to concentrate on airworthy or restore-to-flight projects ) who have been sending stuff from their other locations ( primarily Bruntingthorpe ) to their premises at St Athan.
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Brevet Cable

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby Pringles on Sat 02 Jun 2018, 9:48 pm

Duncan Halford wrote:As we’ve moved forward, and the new charity has grown into a reality, we’ve made several changes to suit its evolution. One of these was for Nigel to become chairman.

Duncan Halford wrote:I have always been the chairman, I came up the with idea for UKHAT and instigated it's formation. Unfortunately there was a cock up on the charities commission application which meant I was not put down as a trustee to start with. That has all now been sorted...


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Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby GertrudetheMerciless on Sat 02 Jun 2018, 10:20 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:
HeyfordDave111 wrote:OK, so ground running sounds good, but St. Athan? where is your income stream going to come from down there?

To get it back to ground-running condition in the first place, presumably.
As a guess, GJA Aerotech ( as opposed to HAS, who tend to concentrate on airworthy or restore-to-flight projects ) who have been sending stuff from their other locations ( primarily Bruntingthorpe ) to their premises at St Athan.


GJD? I'm not sure they're going to provide an income stream.
GertrudetheMerciless

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Sat 02 Jun 2018, 10:55 pm

Literally nothing I have heard or read from UKHAT dissuades me from the view that they are, at best, a bunch of clueless chancers.

Halford's behaviour, even in this thread, is sufficient for the Charities Commission to laugh them out of the door.
Dan O'Hagan

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby Brevet Cable on Sun 03 Jun 2018, 12:05 am

GertrudetheMerciless wrote:GJD? I'm not sure they're going to provide an income stream.

I never said they would.
Someone's have to get it up & running, and GJD can do that, hence St Athan.
Stuffed with the rest of it, though, as St Athan isn't exactly open access given the military presence there.
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Brevet Cable

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby Duncan Halford on Sun 03 Jun 2018, 8:13 am

Dan O'Hagan wrote:Literally nothing I have heard or read from UKHAT dissuades me from the view that they are, at best, a bunch of clueless chancers.

Halford's behaviour, even in this thread, is sufficient for the Charities Commission to laugh them out of the door.


Good morning Dan

Thank you for your kind words and support.
Duncan Halford

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby Skymonster on Sun 03 Jun 2018, 9:10 am

Duncan Halford wrote:As we’ve moved forward, and the new charity has grown into a reality, we’ve made several changes to suit its evolution. One of these was for Nigel to become chairman.


Duncan Halford wrote:I have always been the chairman, I came up the with idea for UKHAT and instigated it's formation. Unfortunately there was a cock up on the charities commission application which meant I was not put down as a trustee to start with. That has all now been sorted and we have also added Jem Shaw as a Trustee as well as myself.


Duncan Halford wrote:Good morning Dan,
Thank you for your kind words and support.


So, you have time to respond to Dan but not to address Pringle's concerns about the conflicting information that you have posted recently Duncan. I'd love to see the Herald preserved, but honestly the disinformation (or at least misleading information) you've posted about UKHAT does absolutely nothing to persuade me that the organisation is worthy of my support. Convincing enthusiasts (let alone the public) to part with money is about giving them confidence that they hard-earned cash is not going to waste. By posting conflicting information all that happens is you dent the credibility of the organisation you purport to represent, generating suspicion and causing those who might support you to keep their wallets in their pockets. I feel that way at present no matter how much I'd like to see the Herald saved, and I don't blame anyone who does the same.
Skymonster

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby JetMan on Sun 03 Jun 2018, 10:34 am

Skymonster wrote:
Duncan Halford wrote:As we’ve moved forward, and the new charity has grown into a reality, we’ve made several changes to suit its evolution. One of these was for Nigel to become chairman.


Duncan Halford wrote:I have always been the chairman, I came up the with idea for UKHAT and instigated it's formation. Unfortunately there was a cock up on the charities commission application which meant I was not put down as a trustee to start with. That has all now been sorted and we have also added Jem Shaw as a Trustee as well as myself.


Duncan Halford wrote:Good morning Dan,
Thank you for your kind words and support.


So, you have time to respond to Dan but not to address Pringle's concerns about the conflicting information that you have posted recently Duncan. I'd love to see the Herald preserved, but honestly the disinformation (or at least misleading information) you've posted about UKHAT does absolutely nothing to persuade me that the organisation is worthy of my support. Convincing enthusiasts (let alone the public) to part with money is about giving them confidence that they hard-earned cash is not going to waste. By posting conflicting information all that happens is you dent the credibility of the organisation you purport to represent, generating suspicion and causing those who might support you to keep their wallets in their pockets. I feel that way at present no matter how much I'd like to see the Herald saved, and I don't blame anyone who does the same.

Spot on Skymonster
JetMan

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