Where has XH558 thread gone?

[borismorris]

A HUNDRED pounds to hear an aeroplane engine run for a few minutes. You could comfortably fly to some European shows for that sort of money.

Perhaps they have no interest in ‘flying to European Shows’ and would much rather listen to 558 for a few minutes.

But then you’ve never liked other people’s opinions have you Dan. If it’s not the same opinion as yours it’s the wrong opinion.

Actually I think on this occasion it's probably every sane person's opinion. £75 for a child's ticket to this event, however you look at it, is just ridiculous. It's as if they don't want children there.

I'm actually of the mind that we the people ought to be trolling all of their media channels telling the ignorant supporters that they are being ripped off left right and centre here.

I find it offensive to think anyone with sound judgement would pay such a sum. Furthermore, I find it beyond belief that they (Vulcan to the...umm...nowhere) can think it's reasonable to ask for such an extortionate amount.

[MiG_Eater]

I can only imagine they are selling it to an audience that simply does not know about other opportunities to experience similar or better events for a literal fraction of the price. I can't imagine anyone on this forum would attend, unless they are deeply involved in the organisation.

Don't Bruntingthorpe charge something like £20.00 for A Lightning, Victor, 3 Buccaneers, VC-10, Comet, Canberra, Iskra... all of which *actually move* and there's normally a flypast.

It would be comical if it wasn't truly tragic.

[Brevet Cable]

... then depart through security (Valid photo I.D. required)

And that, in a nutshell, is one of the big stumbling-blocks for the project.

Will the new facilities ( assuming they get built ) have their own access, meaning visitors won't have to go through this rigmarole ?
There are plenty of people out there who don't have photo IDs - unless they accept OAP/ student bus passes, student cards or company employee IDs, that is - so they'd never be granted access.

[Xm657]

This is the lunacy of Pleming's master plan of keeping 558 at a busy airport. You will never be able to get large numbers of people anywhere near the action - and certainly need a fence between them and the aircraft. So it will remain a premium event until there is no one left prepared to pay the premium and then who alone knows 558's fate.

[Xm657]

I can only imagine they are selling it to an audience that simply does not know about other opportunities to experience similar or better events for a literal fraction of the price. I can't imagine anyone on this forum would attend, unless they are deeply involved in the organisation.

Don't Bruntingthorpe charge something like £20.00 for A Lightning, Victor, 3 Buccaneers, VC-10, Comet, Canberra, Iskra... all of which *actually move* and there's normally a flypast.

It would be comical if it wasn't truly tragic.

I would consider it maybe as a special one off treat simply because there isn't a Vulcan at Bruntingthorpe and I do like the noise only a Vulcan can make.

However I absolutely won't attend an event at Doncaster out of principle since I am disgusted that Pleming wouldn't let her go to Bruntingthorpe and don't want a penny of my money to find its way into his salary or expense account.

[speedbird2639]

£75 for a child's ticket to this event

Or take kids to RIAT. For free.

A couple of years ago we had a thread on here debating whether RIAT was good value at about £45-50 with the kids for free for a 7 hour flying display. Some people actually felt it wasn't.

And now VTTS is charging £100/75 for an engine run that surely won't last more than a few minutes. The disappointing thing is it will probably sell out at those prices and RIAT doesn't some years go figure.

When they do the engine tests at Wellesbourne you can watch from the road and I'll bet you are as close to the aircraft then as you will be at VTTS!

[Brevet Cable]

£75 for a child's ticket to this event

Or take kids to RIAT. For free

There's a Vulcan at Fairford ? ....... Damn, I must have missed that !

I wouldn't pay north of £40 to go and watch a football match.
I wouldn't pay just to go and watch the RAFAT or BBMF.
I wouldn't pay to attend a photoshoot of aircraft I can see elsewhere.

Others would.

Just like people will still pay to see XH558.

Oh, and I wouldn't, before anyone asks.

[Gonzo230]

And now VTTS is charging £100/75 for an engine run that surely won't last more than a few minutes. The disappointing thing is it will probably sell out at those prices and RIAT doesn't some years go figure.

...and if it does sell out, then surely that shows that the market can take that price?

[speedbird2639]

And now VTTS is charging £100/75 for an engine run that surely won't last more than a few minutes. The disappointing thing is it will probably sell out at those prices and RIAT doesn't some years go figure.

...and if it does sell out, then surely that shows that the market can take that price?

True - but the sad thing is people could instead go to visit the other two live Vulcan and make a donation and have the satisfaction that 100% of that money handed over was going to be used to help maintain the aircraft whereas at VTTS....

[Brevet Cable]

Except that neither of them are XH558.
Show Joe Pub a photo of an Avro Vulcan and ask them to identify it, chances are the overwhelming majority who do answer will say XH558.
Like it or not, it's unlikely most of them know of the existence of the other Vulcans in the UK.

[richw_82]

You give the average member of public too much credit. Show them a Vulcan and they'll tell you its a Vulcan. In the next breath they'll tell you how they saw it at Scarborough a few years back flying, and at Newark Air Museum last week with the kids. Or they saw sitting by the fence on the A15 just south of Lincoln. By and large they know what they're looking at, but not which one.

As for if the market can stand it, yes, if you confine your market to a few die-hard XH558 supporting individuals with a reasonable disposable income and no idea of value for money. The rest of the 'market' will realise that for the cost of that one ground run of that particular unairworthy V-bomber, they can watch another similar unairworthy V-bomber 5 times. Each.

The exclusivity and novelty factor will only last so long.

[Brevet Cable]

Guess I didn't make that clear enough....by "identify it" I meant properly ( XH558, rather than just a generic "Vulcan" )
Yes, most would just say "Vulcan" or "The Vulcan", but chances are that if it's someone who's just seen footage of one on the telly or a photo of one in the media/on the internet they'll automatically associate it with XH558 because the other ones haven't exactly received much publicity in the national media or at airshows over the last 10 years or so, have they?

As for 'the market', surely it would depend on publicity.
These days a lot of it's down to social media.....how many supporters/followers ( whatever they're called ) does XH558 have on facebook & twitter compared to the other Vulcans?
Unless people know of their existence they won't go to visit them.

[richw_82]

Guess I didn't make it clear enough.... by "identify it", I meant properly too. If you say "XH558" to them they won't have a clue what you're talking about. Just as they don't know what PA474, AR213, WR963, 44-85784 or NX611 are. They see a picture of a Vulcan in the media, and they'll assume its the one they saw flying some years back, which is the same one they saw in the nice museum a few weeks back.

As for your 'market' what has that got to do with how many fans it has on Facebook or other social media? I follow XH558 on there, it means I'm interested in reading about it - not paying for pensions, salaries, storage, Canberra, Swift, inspiring the future, VE3, latest hare-brained sticker scheme, hangar plans, or keeping it sat next to a former sewage treatment facility. Basically unless you know how much spare cash each fan has in the bank they're willing to spend on XH558 its irrelevant. The 'market' is still a small few that are happy to blow £100 just to say they've done it. Once they've been there done that and bought the inevitable branded t-shirt, what then?

As to your last point - I had to laugh at this bit. "Unless people know of their existence they won't go to visit them." No, people will go where they can afford, and actually having access to visit will play a large part. Even with more fans out there - how many individual visitors has XH558 had this year and last against each museum based example, each with less social media output? And from that, how many members of public have actually seen it against the other Vulcans which they assume is the one they saw flying?

[NAM Updater]

Some interesting points and I cannot resist posting some additional food for thought!

Today the public was participating in cockpit tours of Vulcan XM594 at Newark and they have done so on and off for more than 35 years, this cost an extra £1 per person over and above the normal museum admission fee - details contained on the museum website in the following weblink about this regular offer! http://www.newarkairmuseum.org/NAM_open_cockpits

Tomorrow the museum is participating in the BBC Radio Nottingham Big Day Out, where access to the museum is free for visitors with the appropriate print outs for the event; but cockpit access to many museum aircraft will still be made under the above mentioned terms. Last year the museum hosted more than 900 free admissions to the site during the Big Day Out - we anticipate similar numbers tomorrow; the one aircraft that books up the quickest is Vulcan XM594; quite simply because the public can get access inside it!

We hope that a few of you might look at taking up this opportunity tomorrow!

P.S. we hope that the Vulcan team down at Southend also have a good Vulcan event tomorrow as well!

[VRT Southend Vulcan]

Some interesting points and I cannot resist posting some additional food for thought!

Today the public was participating in cockpit tours of Vulcan XM594 at Newark and they have done so on and off for more than 35 years, this cost an extra £1 per person over and above the normal museum admission fee - details contained on the museum website in the following weblink about this regular offer! http://www.newarkairmuseum.org/NAM_open_cockpits

Tomorrow the museum is participating in the BBC Radio Nottingham Big Day Out, where access to the museum is free for visitors with the appropriate print outs for the event; but cockpit access to many museum aircraft will still be made under the above mentioned terms. Last year the museum hosted more than 900 free admissions to the site during the Big Day Out - we anticipate similar numbers tomorrow; the one aircraft that books up the quickest is Vulcan XM594; quite simply because the public can get access inside it!

We hope that a few of you might look at taking up this opportunity tomorrow!

P.S. we hope that the Vulcan team down at Southend also have a good Vulcan event tomorrow as well!

Thanks for your good wishes, Howard. We hope you have a great day too!

Rich

[sooty655]

Its truly amazing people are prepared to pay this amount of money just for an engine run. But as apparently they are why dont the other two runnable Vulcans not cash in on this and do some paid engine runs themselves, think of the funds they could raise that wouldn't have to be syphoned off in wages and consultancy fees. The VRT are doing a £5 visit their Vulcan, but why not up the price and run the engines - might be enough to get some money for hangar rent.

I can't speak for VRT at Southend, but XM655MaPS don't do it because we don't need ludicrous amounts of money and have no desire to milk our supporters. We have a business model that works to keep us comfortably operating and entertaining lots of visitors every weekend without any need for mega-prices.

Good luck to VRT for their open day at Southend tomorrow. Well worth a visit to support a great bunch of volunteers looking after a real Vulcan, not an empty shell.

[Brevet Cable]

Guess I didn't make it clear enough.... by "identify it", I meant properly too. If you say "XH558" to them they won't have a clue what you're talking about. Just as they don't know what PA474, AR213, WR963, 44-85784 or NX611 are. They see a picture of a Vulcan in the media, and they'll assume its the one they saw flying some years back, which is the same one they saw in the nice museum a few weeks back.

As for your 'market' what has that got to do with how many fans it has on Facebook or other social media? I follow XH558 on there, it means I'm interested in reading about it - not paying for pensions, salaries, storage, Canberra, Swift, inspiring the future, VE3, latest hare-brained sticker scheme, hangar plans, or keeping it sat next to a former sewage treatment facility. Basically unless you know how much spare cash each fan has in the bank they're willing to spend on XH558 its irrelevant. The 'market' is still a small few that are happy to blow £100 just to say they've done it. Once they've been there done that and bought the inevitable branded t-shirt, what then?

As to your last point - I had to laugh at this bit. "Unless people know of their existence they won't go to visit them." No, people will go where they can afford, and actually having access to visit will play a large part. Even with more fans out there - how many individual visitors has XH558 had this year and last against each museum based example, each with less social media output? And from that, how many members of public have actually seen it against the other Vulcans which they assume is the one they saw flying?

Look around the Joe Pubs attending airshows...you'll still see a lot of them wearing t-shirts, caps, etc. that they bought on the VTTS stalls in previous years.
What does it say on them? XH558.
You say I give them too much credit, I'd say you don't give them enough.

What have fans/followers got to do with 'market'? They're the ones who still buy the bumf & attend the various events.
What's VTST's income from sales of bumf & events compared to the other Vulcans, the Victors or even the Shackleton.....do any of them even come close to what VTST make?

Given that XH558 has been pretty much inaccessible for the past year, your comparison isn't really valid.
Unless you're a spotter/ aviation fan, how many people go to an aviation museum just to see a specific aircraft?
As opposed to people going to Doncaster specifically to see XH558.

[Marathon Milkshake]

This is the lunacy of Pleming's master plan of keeping 558 at a busy airport. You will never be able to get large numbers of people anywhere near the action - and certainly need a fence between them and the aircraft. So it will remain a premium event until there is no one left prepared to pay the premium and then who alone knows 558's fate.

We all know 558's eventual fate. Scrap

[GertrudetheMerciless]

So, Bob-A-Job and co have the first public engine runs of The People's Aircraft available for booking.

Naturally at a price point most of those "People" will be able to afford, brace yourselves...

Arrive at the Ramada Hotel on the edge of Doncaster Sheffield Airport to your Welcome Meeting with refreshments and drinks provided.

Take in your briefing, then depart through security (Valid photo I.D. required) to board a coach that will take you to the engine ground-running bay.

See the ground crew prepare the aircraft for power-on.

Witness the aircraft come to life, with all Olympus engines started and control surfaces exercised.

See the operation of the bomb-bay doors and air-brakes.

Hear application of full-power to selected engines and the famous Vulcan 'howl'.

Shutdown and then close under-wing inspections complete the airside visit before returning to the coach.

9am arrival - only 30 places available - Adults @ £100 per head

1pm arrival - only 30 places available - Adults @ £100 per head

Kids tickets are £75 a pop. "Inspiring The Future" etc.

So, imagine a family of four. Two adults. Two sprogs. £350. To watch a former aeroplane not even move.

What kind of gullible idiots are out there to pay this?

HOW MUCH! They must have a very expensive fuel supplier or Michelin star level catering!

[Brevet Cable]

And now VTTS is charging £100/75 for an engine run that surely won't last more than a few minutes. The disappointing thing is it will probably sell out at those prices and RIAT doesn't some years go figure.

...and if it does sell out, then surely that shows that the market can take that price?

Eleven Adult tickets left for the morning run.
One Adult ticket left for the afternoon run.
Four Junior tickets left for the morning run.
Four Junior tickets left for the afternoon run.

[Fumbles]

9am arrival - only 30 places available - Adults @ £100 per head

1pm arrival - only 30 places available - Adults @ £100 per head

There it is... All comes down to marketing to get people with money to spend even more. Make the few think this is an exclusive event by limiting the numbers and those people will spend the cash not knowing that there is other better options available for a cheaper price with more people visiting.

[Dan213]

And now VTTS is charging £100/75 for an engine run that surely won't last more than a few minutes. The disappointing thing is it will probably sell out at those prices and RIAT doesn't some years go figure.

...and if it does sell out, then surely that shows that the market can take that price?

60 people are hardly a representation of the market. There are people out there that will throw money at anything given the chance. Perhaps this is all part of the plan though, as they can then slap ‘sold out’ all over their newsletters and instantly pull the focus away from the fact that the aircraft is sat outside with no investors for the hangar in sight.

[Skymonster]

9am arrival - only 30 places available - Adults @ £100 per head

1pm arrival - only 30 places available - Adults @ £100 per head

There it is... All comes down to marketing to get people with money to spend even more. Make the few think this is an exclusive event by limiting the numbers and those people will spend the cash not knowing that there is other better options available for a cheaper price with more people visiting.

Yep - like other 'causes' that have done better than expected (e.g. Donald Trump, Brexit, etc), VTTS has survived and continued to pull in money / support not because what it is doing is a shining example of being right, but because it was either astute enough to recognise the power or marketing to a large audience and knew / stumbled on what to say to turn people on to their cause, or by chance got lucky enough to have a large audience that it could preach to. We all know that in reality there is only one reason why VTTS can charge £100 a pop and yet Southend / Wellesborne etc would only be able to command a fraction of that price even if they wanted to charge more - and that is VTTS have managed to carry supporters who are still prepared to listen to them, and they still have the ability to persuade at least some of those supporters that they are offering something unique and different. The problem is that VTTS really now have to start delivering again because the market for £100 engine runs isn't endless. If it doesn't start to get this hangar up soon (seemingly no progress so far this year, and we are almost 1/3 way in) the pack of card will eventually start to crumble as the number of people with money who haven't seen it or won't pay again dwindles.

[richw_82]

Look around the Joe Pubs attending airshows...you'll still see a lot of them wearing t-shirts, caps, etc. that they bought on the VTTS stalls in previous years.
What does it say on them? XH558.
You say I give them too much credit, I'd say you don't give them enough.

There's still people out there wearing Elvis T-shirts too. Its a T-shirt they fancied when they had a bit of cash available, its not like they've sold their soul to scientology for it. Either way, show a t-shirt wearing Joe Public a random Vulcan picture and the chances are high they won't identify it by serial number. I'll concede they might at most say its 'the' Vulcan rather than 'a' Vulcan.

What have fans/followers got to do with 'market'? They're the ones who still buy the bumf & attend the various events.
What's VTST's income from sales of bumf & events compared to the other Vulcans, the Victors or even the Shackleton.....do any of them even come close to what VTST make?

True, your market is within your social media fans, but its not all of them, and not proportional when prices for seeing engine runs are beyond the means of most of them! As I posted earlier, there's an awful lot of people out there that were interested in the aircraft and are now watching to see how far this train wreck is going to go. We're not their market, and we're not going to spend money. The further things get without any kind of useful action, or questions being answered properly, the smaller the markets going to get too, until there's just Dr Bob, Eddie and a couple of engineers having a whip round to start the AAPU.

As to VTST's income, its dropping off year by year and will soon level out where everyone else is. Sure, when it was flying and lots of staff were employed, and volunteers manning stalls at every show in the country it was going to make money, and it needed to in order to fly - which is the point you've missed. Everyone else is doing the same, they're making what they need to keep going as was posted by the XM655 guys further up this page. The business models don't require the level of activity VTST did. For instance the Shackleton - we made enough that the aircraft pays for itself, its fuel, and allowed us to have a crack at taxying a four engined Avro aircraft - with public in attendance and on board - at a live airport...

Hang on a minute... I've got a great idea.

Given that XH558 has been pretty much inaccessible for the past year, your comparison isn't really valid.
Unless you're a spotter/ aviation fan, how many people go to an aviation museum just to see a specific aircraft?
As opposed to people going to Doncaster specifically to see XH558.

You made the comparison valid when you stated "Unless people know of their existence they won't go to visit them.". People are forgetting XH558 exists as she's been inaccesible, and they physically can't visit. Thats why they mistake other Vulcans for her. They can see them, so that must be it. Its the same mentality as the members of public that walk around the Shackleton telling their kids its a Lancaster, and it flew over Derwent last year. It isn't and didn't, yet still they come. As you say - they're not spotters/aviation fans - which brings me back to the original point that they won't identify it by serial number.

Lastly - even if access was available last year, people are more likely to visit a museum where they can get in a Vulcan for £1 without anti terrorism checks, photo ID and having to sell a kidney. Its not rocket science its just financially sound and doesn't involve trying to find everyone's passports, and control bored kids while waiting to see one aeroplane sitting serenely in a green tinged cloud at the edge of an airport.

While on comparison side most tourism leaflets for museums having a Vulcan show it prominently on the front, and you can be sure they'll look for it. With or without a serial number. Also said museum will have something interesting for the kids, room to move about, more things to look at, and no al fresco toilet arrangements.

[Dan O'Hagan]

Remind me again of the positive reasons for being in Doncaster?

One will do.