Where has XH558 thread gone?

[vulcan558]

I know that this is a discussion forum, and I don't want to sound insensitive, but honestly, there's a significant part of me that thinks it's time (or long overdue) for this discussion to be left quietly in the Forum boneyard.

I can't recall anything new of substance, just the same individuals and usernames and their pride going around in circles and circles. I seldom visit this thread these days because, in honesty, there's so much of the same crap to trudge through. The circularity of discussion in this thread has succeeded in making me utterly disinterested despite my best efforts in XH558.

I don't want to see this thread deleted - if something (of note!) happens to her at Donny, positive or negative, It'd be cool to see that discussed, but if the trudge and sludge of circular arguments continues, for the sake of the sanity of the silent majority, it might have to be.

Perhaps the "regulars" in this thread can just cool it?

Would say tbere is nothinv hot too cool down.
I see no swearing name calling or anything un towards on this topic.
This topic thats been at the top of this section for the past few years.
It was poor moderating that was done on the old topic. So again it will be another poor move if this is removed.
Only for another to bs set up and stay on the number 1 topic of ukar.
This is debate and got substance. More so then a riat wishlist for 2018.
If the topic gets hot and sweRing or name calling bully boy style then yes moderate it.
Its easy to delete a few bad posts. Poor to delete a whole very popular topic thou.

[Dan O'Hagan]

I know that this is a discussion forum, and I don't want to sound insensitive, but honestly, there's a significant part of me that thinks it's time (or long overdue) for this discussion to be left quietly in the Forum boneyard.

I can't recall anything new of substance, just the same individuals and usernames and their pride going around in circles and circles. I seldom visit this thread these days because, in honesty, there's so much of the same crap to trudge through. The circularity of discussion in this thread has succeeded in making me utterly disinterested despite my best efforts in XH558.

I don't want to see this thread deleted - if something (of note!) happens to her at Donny, positive or negative, It'd be cool to see that discussed, but if the trudge and sludge of circular arguments continues, for the sake of the sanity of the silent majority, it might have to be.

Perhaps the "regulars" in this thread can just cool it?

Would say tbere is nothinv hot too cool down.
I see no swearing name calling or anything un towards on this topic.
This topic thats been at the top of this section for the past few years.
It was poor moderating that was done on the old topic. So again it will be another poor move if this is removed.
Only for another to bs set up and stay on the number 1 topic of UKAR.
This is debate and got substance. More so then a RIAT wishlist for 2018.
If the topic gets hot and sweRing or name calling bully boy style then yes moderate it.
Its easy to delete a few bad posts. Poor to delete a whole very popular topic though.

I agree 100% with Rich. The thread is robust and polarising, but remains the only place where open, free and informed debate on the subject is taking place. Not on the official forum, and certainly not on Facebook. On UKAR a lot of hitherto unknown matters surrounding 558 have been revealed, aired and in some cases leaked by people close to VTTS. We also held Pleming's feet to the fire with the podcasts, which revealed more than a thousand press releases and tat-flogging "news"(sic) letters ever have.

If personal attacks are made, clean up the thread and deal with the troublemakers, otherwise let one of the few remaining busy topics on UKAR run its course. I suspect very soon we'll learn that 558's end is nigh anyway. And then the recriminations will start...

For a moderator to suggest deleting the thread is the kind of heavy-handed "we know best" you'd expect from the little Napoleons over on the Key forum. It's not how UKAR works.

[Brevet Cable]

If it wasn't for this thread, the following possibly wouldn't have been posted on here ( with thanks to Taff on the VTTS forum ) :

https://www-thestar-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/www.thestar.co.uk/business/18m-aero-apprentice-centre-plan-in-doncaster-to-help-skills-soar-1-8898572/amp

An £18 million aeronautics apprentice training centre at Doncaster Sheffield Airport could help land huge airline maintenance contracts, its backers say.

Plans are being drawn up for a new building with a hangar on a prime plot beside the runway which would train up to 100 apprentices from local companies.

It would be a ‘satellite’ of Sheffield University’s Advanced Manufacturing Research Centre in Rotherham, where youngsters would also study to further boost their skills.

And it is hoped a growing number of trained specialists in the borough would help land giant MRO – maintenance, repair and overhaul – contracts with airlines, which could create hundreds of skilled jobs.

The AMRC plans to apply for funding from the Local Enterprise Partnership and Government. It also has the backing of the airport and Doncaster Council.

An event for Doncaster engineering bosses – who would supply apprentices and pay for their training – has been held at the airport.

If everything goes to plan the centre could be open by September 2019.
(snip)
Aeronautical apprentices could also help maintain the retired Vulcan nuclear bomber which is based in a hangar adjacent to Doncaster Sheffield Airport.

[IgnatiusJReilly]

I fully appreciate that its hardly a detailed press release, but that article doesn't suggest to me that VTTS are the driving force behind this proposal.
Reading between the lines, I am left with the impression that the world has moved on and around VTTS. Yes there's a nod to students maybe doing some work on XH558, but it seems very much as a side opportunity, not as a cornerstone of the facility.
ETNA as originally proposed seems well and truly dead now - I haven't cross referenced the organisations involved, but it seems likely that the academic institutions that were all touted as ETNA partners would now be aligned towards this new proposal?

Given the information provided, I wouldn't say that that was the most positive news for VTTS. It suggests that the temporary hangar - if it can ever be built - will actually be its forever home.
And if that is the best they can hope for, questions over the long term viability of that site, (and the commercial model), arise. (My belief is that it is too small to be viable as a visitor attraction in the long term and being unable to expand it over time, I think is a major, major problem.)

[toom317]

Aeronautical apprentices could also help maintain the retired Vulcan nuclear bomber which is based in a hangar adjacent to Doncaster Sheffield Airport

How old is this article? Based in a Hanger! Not now or likely.

[Brevet Cable]

As per the dateline on the page the link opens to -- yesterday ( 7th December 2017 )

[Xm657]

This is pretty shocking to read. I thought the ETNA scheme was pie in the sky, but from what is presented here, there clearly is interest in building an engineering and educational centre at Doncaster after all, its just they no longer want the Vulcan and VttST at the centre of it. At a stroke, the main reason for being at Doncaster has just disappeared. Sure the apprentices might work on the Vulcan and help the Red Arrows, but that's not going to be much, if any, of a revenue stream to keep the Vulcan preserved. The funding is going to this college, they aren't going to pay a fortune to tinker with the Vulcan, and what work could they really do anyway.

This is ETNA and its happening without VttST. Surely Mr Pleming must know this by now, so why is he letting 558 rot at Doncaster rather than getting the money and expertise together to move her to Bruntingthorpe? Just throwing good money after bad and compounding the mistake of stranding her at Robin Hood Airport. Is it so hard to admit he got it wrong, and do the right thing for this wonderful aircraft before its too late? (probably is too late but I'm grasping at straws)

[MicrolightDriver]

This is pretty shocking to read. I thought the ETNA scheme was pie in the sky, but from what is presented here, there clearly is interest in building an engineering and educational centre at Doncaster after all....

Just to pick up on this conclusion..Yes, it looks like VTTS were right about the need for this kind of resource at Doncaster then. So why not look at this in terms of whether there could end up being a role for 558 here, or if nothing else, a mutually beneficial relationship and engineering support for 558 from such an organisation? The article says as much.

To me, this feels like a potential option or at least a fallback position that actually provides an additional degree of safeguard for 558's future at DRHA.

I certainly don't see a threat in this, or a reason to re-open the whole 'fly it to Bruntingthorpe' thing again...

[FarnboroJohn]

This is pretty shocking to read. I thought the ETNA scheme was pie in the sky, but from what is presented here, there clearly is interest in building an engineering and educational centre at Doncaster after all....

Just to pick up on this conclusion..Yes, it looks like VTTS were right about the need for this kind of resource at Doncaster then. So why not look at this in terms of whether there could end up being a role for 558 here, or if nothing else, a mutually beneficial relationship and engineering support for 558 from such an organisation? The article says as much.

To me, this feels like a potential option or at least a fallback position that actually provides an additional degree of safeguard for 558's future at DRHA.

I certainly don't see a threat in this, or a reason to re-open the whole 'fly it to Bruntingthorpe' thing again...

1. VTTS suggests ETNA
2. Nothing happens
3. Someone else suggests a similar project without inviting VTTS to be a stakeholder
4. Everyone at Doncaster but VTTS says what a good idea and jumps on the moving bandwagon
5. At VTTS nothing continues to happen

Not seeing much help for VTTS here (well none actually), but a new project that will occupy some of the space at/near the airport while VTTS continues to fail to move its ambitions forward. Even in mentioning the Vulcan as a possible asset no mention is made of VTTS or whatever its called now. Looks like a threat to me.

John

[MicrolightDriver]

Maybe I'm just a bit less 'glass half empty' than you, but I don't agree.

I certainly hope VTTS are engaged / have reacted and while pursuing their own plans, are at least exploring potential opportunities in this development.

[IgnatiusJReilly]

I can't help but think if VTTS were actively involved in this proposal, that they'd have issued a press release and a newsflash email update trumpeting the breakthrough development.
.
and launched a share issue.


I don't know the industry enough to know, but would working on a Vulcan bomber offer any meaningful value to a student training to operate modern commercial aircraft? Is XH558 really, genuinely, an asset for a modern aeronautical training college?

[FarnboroJohn]

Maybe I'm just a bit less 'glass half empty' than you, but I don't agree.

I certainly hope VTTS are engaged / have reacted and while pursuing their own plans, are at least exploring potential opportunities in this development.

I don't think the glass is "half empty" - or "half full" - I think they are trying to avoid swallowing the bits in the last few mouthfuls of the sour last pint from the barrel.

John

[Xm657]

Not really sure what John is trying to say but in reaction to MicrolightDriver's post:

If this project yields a revenue stream and perhaps some free hangarage for 558 then it is a very positive development. But this article surely suggests it won't.

The point of Doncaster was that the VttST would form an aviation company and educational center. What seems to be happening is the educational center in happening without them and they are trying to build a tiny museum around a couple of airframes next to a sewage farm. The chances of this actually being built and if built being able pay it's way seems slim to none.

I'm all for being optimistic but being realistic is important too. Surely most people on this thread just want 558 to be safe, if she can be safe and taxiable even better, if she can be safe, taxiable and people can actually see her taxi that would be perfect. Brunty ticks all these boxes, currently Doncaster ticks none.

Sadly though, I fear she's stuck where she is. So I hope you are right MicrolightDriver, and this new development works out better for 558's future than this article implies it will.

[vulcan558]

I can't help but think if VTTS were actively involved in this proposal, that they'd have issued a press release and a newsflash email update trumpeting the breakthrough development.
.
and launched a share issue.


I don't know the industry enough to know, but would working on a Vulcan bomber offer any meaningful value to a student training to operate modern commercial aircraft? Is XH558 really, genuinely, an asset for a modern aeronautical training college?

This story looks like its some old copy and paste of old snippets, for a small local rag.
They even state the Vulcan is in Hangar3 still.

Doncaster missing out of a project could be why 558s sitting outside, is she a burden or a sympathy card.
Not sure who wrote this story, theres even the Red arrows moving to Doncaster story mixed in, and the students working on the red arrows, now that sounds safe.

[HeyfordDave111]

I have no doubt that there is a need for a learning centre ‘ centre of excellence type place for learning about maintenance and procedures on aircraft, and note I didn’t put ‘modern’ aircraft there, as I think the heritage side of things is very important.

However, I do not feel that any university, or training school will pay for students to learn on 1950’s technology as it does not benefit either them or the students.

After all, how many full time heritage engineers are there? They are a wonderful and small breed, and I salute them all. But the money is with maintenance of modern aircraft, and nothing less.

And a Vulcan is not very high on anyone’s agenda in this matter I would think.

An Airbus is, or a Boeing etc, and these airframes are pretty accessible as quite a few get retired, and can be used, I suppose, for practice, and good practice.

It wouldn’t surprise me if the Vulcan hangar gets built now........but not for 558! It will be a bespoke school of aeronautical engineering, clean, safe, and with all the facilities a modern workshop should have for students.
Heck as planning permission is in for the VTTS hangar, I can see whoever usurping the planning permission and putting their hangar there instead.

Leaving 558, Swift and the bag of bits that is the Canberra homeless.

Remember, if Doncaster is to survive as a thriving airport, they must expand... more servicing areas, more pan space, more hanagrage, more parking and more terminal space.
They are a business and businesses are profit minded, they are not a charity unless it suits them, so they will want more and more profit, and that means expansion, not standing still.

I truly believe, they have no time for the old girl right now or even into the future, and who can blame them. They might give a little here and there for the sake of positive publicity every so often, but business comes first and foremost, and VTTS find themselves not able to ‘pony up’ for hangar space leaves 558 etc outside in the snow today!

[Xm657]

A very good point HeyfordDave. As we have seen with 426 at Southend, there is clearly some sympathy and assistance been given by the airport to the surviving Vulcans, but nobody is going to sacrifice £millions of revenue to give them a home. When Hangar 3 and then Hangar 1 were free, VttST were given discounted or free accommodation, and 426 has been given an inexpensive Hangar this year at Southend as it was unoccupied anyway. But when a better offer comes along, these airports are businesses and can't afford to be too sentimental. I'm sure Doncaster will do everything they can for 558, but only to a point.

Mr Pleming seemed to massively over estimate the VttST's importance, he seemed to think the world revolved around him and it would be a privilege for Doncaster to host his aviation venture, with local companies falling over themselves to give him money, and build him free hangars. Most people are not so fool hardy: if there is so much enthusiasm for Vulcans, why are the majority of persevered examples still rusting away outdoors 30 years after they were retired to museums in the 80s.

It is what it is though: 426, 655 and 558 will continue for as long as they can I suppose.
655 - airfield under threat though probably ok for the moment, no taxi run this year
426 - hangar now under threat, no public taxi run since 2006, no certainty of when or if public runs will re-commence
558 - no hangar, no certainty of public taxi runs any time soon

Meanwhile, at non commercial airport locations large jets are doing ok for now:-
XM715, ZD241 etc, doing doing pretty well at Brunty, for as long as David Walton is in charge we assume
XL231, XV250 etc, doing pretty well at Elvington, longer term thread of losing the runway to housing
ZA150 - occassional public runs, though threat of housing in the longer term

Hopefully we will still be able to see most of these in decades to come. Right now though, you'd have to say 558 has the most uncertain future and most definitely the poorest public access of any of the above.

[NAM Updater]

.......However, I do not feel that any university, or training school will pay for students to learn on 1950’s technology as it does not benefit either them or the students...

Until I hosted a visit to the museum a couple of weeks ago, (if I understand correctly from students from the same Sheffield/Rotherham engineering courses being mentioned in this current thread), I might have agreed with you.

As part of the visit the students were taken into the museum workshop where they were enthralled by the Harvard restoration; in the time I spent with them they took more photographs of that project and its 'structures' than almost anything else. This was closely matched by the half and half restored Tiger Moth in Hangar 1 and the Gazelle!

It was a brilliant visit and I certainly had some of my preconceived ideas changed!

[JetMan]

A lot of technical colleges are using Jet Provosts for their aeronautical engineering courses. Students then go on to work for the likes of BAE Systems, BA, EasyJet and the list goes on. 1960’s aircraft engineering was some of the best. It might not have been the easiest to work on, but the phrase “train hard, fight easy” springs to mind.

[f4phixeruk]

If it wasn't for this thread, the following possibly wouldn't have been posted on here ( with thanks to Taff on the VTTS forum ) :

https://www-thestar-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/www.thestar.co.uk/business/18m-aero-apprentice-centre-plan-in-doncaster-to-help-skills-soar-1-8898572/amp

An £18 million aeronautics apprentice training centre at Doncaster Sheffield Airport could help land huge airline maintenance contracts, its backers say.

Plans are being drawn up for a new building with a hangar on a prime plot beside the runway which would train up to 100 apprentices from local companies.

It would be a ‘satellite’ of Sheffield University’s Advanced Manufacturing Research Centre in Rotherham, where youngsters would also study to further boost their skills.

And it is hoped a growing number of trained specialists in the borough would help land giant MRO – maintenance, repair and overhaul – contracts with airlines, which could create hundreds of skilled jobs.

The AMRC plans to apply for funding from the Local Enterprise Partnership and Government. It also has the backing of the airport and Doncaster Council.

An event for Doncaster engineering bosses – who would supply apprentices and pay for their training – has been held at the airport.

If everything goes to plan the centre could be open by September 2019.
(snip)
Aeronautical apprentices could also help maintain the retired Vulcan nuclear bomber which is based in a hangar adjacent to Doncaster Sheffield Airport.

Surprised this wasnt mentioned in the above article.

http://www.amrc.co.uk/news/boeing-begins-construction-on-its-first-european-production-facility-in-sheffield

Also no mention of Vulcan or Reds in this article http://www.amrc.co.uk/news/advanced-facility-planned-for-training-next-generation-of-aircraft-maintenance-engineers

[Xm657]

Thanks for that f4phixeruk, good to see the story corroborated elsewhere. It certainly doesn't look good for ETNA or the Vulcan benefitting much financially from this. I think the best Mr Pleming can hope for is to try and get a piece of the action by selling access for the students to examine the Vulcan and Canberra occasionally. It might help pay some of the bills, but clearly this isn't going to give him the free hangars and classic aviation business he was hoping for coming to Doncaster.

[Xm657]

A lot of technical colleges are using Jet Provosts for their aeronautical engineering courses. Students then go on to work for the likes of BAE Systems, BA, EasyJet and the list goes on. 1960’s aircraft engineering was some of the best. It might not have been the easiest to work on, but the phrase “train hard, fight easy” springs to mind.

Indeed, and I think that was the idea of ETNA. But these articles don't mention the Vulcan being a part of it. They could perhaps do the odd visit to VttST but ETNA was meant to have the Vulcan at its heart.

[vulcan558]

Amrc as been up and running for a good number of years, last year it was over subscribed by 26,
They are not going to spend £18 million at Doncaster for those 26.

Cheaper to spend a few million and expand the present Amrc in Rotherham.

The Boeing site shows that Doncaster as very little intrest, in a boom or bust set up that is at Doncaster.

[sinbad]

So how does the hlf agreement fit into all this then.......

[IgnatiusJReilly]

So how does the hlf agreement fit into all this then.......

I'm not sure anyone is particularly bothered... What can the HLF do? the money has been spent, VTTS will be able to demonstrate that the hangar is a work in progress. In extremis, the HLF could make a claim on the airframe, but then what would they do with it?
I'm not sure they would want to advertise the fact that this has gone belly up or that they have no practical means of enforcing the terms of the grant.

[GertrudetheMerciless]

.......However, I do not feel that any university, or training school will pay for students to learn on 1950’s technology as it does not benefit either them or the students...

Until I hosted a visit to the museum a couple of weeks ago, (if I understand correctly from students from the same Sheffield/Rotherham engineering courses being mentioned in this current thread), I might have agreed with you.

As part of the visit the students were taken into the museum workshop where they were enthralled by the Harvard restoration; in the time I spent with them they took more photographs of that project and its 'structures' than almost anything else. This was closely matched by the half and half restored Tiger Moth in Hangar 1 and the Gazelle!

It was a brilliant visit and I certainly had some of my preconceived ideas changed!

Agreed. Some of the technology isn't as up to date, but fundamentals remain the same, and a knowledge of these is key.

Old aeroplanes tend to be far more easy to access too.