Where has XH558 thread gone?

[Xm657]

:tumbleweed:

Ha. I'm not sure there is anything else to say Brevit! 558 is at Doncaster, she may or may not get a hangar built to protect her from the elements, she may or may not be able to stay in said hangar for a few years depending on revenue from visitors. She'll continue running her engines for anyone who wants to pay £100 to hear it, but she wont be fast taxiing any time soon or probably ever. If she does ever fast taxi you'll have to watch from a long distance and it wont be a patch on Bruntingthorpe. She wont be ever leaving Doncaster unless its as scrap metal or as a cockpit section. The flying years were great, the retirement is very disappointing. Have I missed anything?

[Brevet Cable]

Yep, either things will happen or things won't happen.

You do have to wonder, though, just how many times others on here have to point out that XH558 ISN'T AT BRUNTINGTHORPE AND WON'T BE GOING TO BRUNTINGTHORPE before it sinks in and the usual suspects stop chuntering on about Bruntingthorpe.
But then, they're as entrenched in their views as those they ridicule for being 'happy clappers' so unfortunately we'll still get the Bruntingthorpe garbage regurgitated every week or so.

[Xm657]

I'm not sure why you call it Bruntingthorpe "garbage". It's a lost cause though, no amount of wishing will get it there and no amount of trying to persuade those who prefer Doncaster how much better the retirement could have been there will make any difference. Just as no amount of persuading RR and Marshalls to let her fly will make any difference either. It is what it is, no use crying any longer over the past.

[Brevet Cable]

Garbage simply because it inevitably includes the "XH558 should have gone to..." argument.
You'd have thought that as XH558's been grounded for close on 3 years that the fact that it isn't at Bruntingthorpe & won't be going to Bruntingthorpe would have sunk in by now.

[Xm657]

Well I think there was always fading hope about a ferry flight or road transport. But what literally 1000s of posts on here have determined is that the good people of VttST would never allow 558 to go to Bruntingthorpe even if either option was feasible - which we have to realise it isn't. I have no issue with people continuing to fund VttST though if they wish as I've always believed that people who give to 558 would not have given their money to any other aviation group if 558 didn't exist. VttST rightly concluded that the majority of their supporters couldn't care less about Bruntingthorpe. It's up to the remaining supporters to decide if the salaried staff are value for money - but I expect those salaried staff will gradually decline over the years anyway.

[Brevet Cable]

That pretty much sums it up.

[Alanko]

:tumbleweed:

She wont be ever leaving Doncaster unless its as scrap metal or as a cockpit section.

Hendon's Vulcan was trucked in in sections, so it can be done.

The sad truth of the matter is that 558 is just another B2 in a country where the type is rudely well represented. I don't agree with the naysayers who think that 558 is now pretty much doomed because it is outdoors; many museums have static B2s that have been outdoors for three decades with varying degrees of care and attention paid to them. The clock on 558 has started ticking only recently.

Maybe a good question would be to ask whether 558 needs to be a runner at all? A lot of the bother appears to stem from the fact that VTTS insist on keeping 558 live and on an active airport. Ditch the notion that it will trundle around under its own power once in a blue moon, and you open up more possibilities. Perhaps the charitable thing would be to give 558 to a museum struggling to keep a more weather-beaten static B2 in shape, and give that knackered B2 to somebody at Bruntingthorpe (etc) to restore as a good static attraction. XL319, XL360, XM597, and probably others, all appear to be in a slightly rough condition. Swap 558 for one of these, use the little bit of Celebrity Vulcan status tied up in the serial, Brunty (etc) get their Vulcan, a museum benefits from having 558, and everybody is happy. As I said before, VTTS could be more of a roaming team of people keeping any and all Vulcans out the reach of the scrap men through careful interventions.

[Brevet Cable]

The sad truth of the matter is that 558 is just another B2 in a country where the type is rudely well represented.

Technically it's not 'just another B.2', it was the first B.2 delivered to the RAF, just as it was the last Vulcan still flying.

[Alanko]

The sad truth of the matter is that 558 is just another B2 in a country where the type is rudely well represented.

Technically it's not 'just another B.2', it was the first B.2 delivered to the RAF, just as it was the last Vulcan still flying.

That matters very little to anybody beyond the absolute fanboys (the guys who consider punching some holes into the ground adjacent to the runway at Port Stanley as the pinnacle of UK air superiority).

I for one, don't care about either plaudit; it isn't flying now, and it is out of RAF service. It is just another B2.

[Brevet Cable]

And yet museums, etc., make a point of emphasising anything that makes their kit stand out from others.

[Dan213]

And yet museums, etc., make a point of emphasising anything that makes their kit stand out from others.

Do many people, other than the devoted serial loggers actually pay attention to that? Most people couldn't care less

[Gonzo230]

Dan, have you ever worked in a safety critical environment?

And that has to do with XH558 and VTTS how, exactly?

Well, have a think.

You seem to be crucifying an entire organisation based on the following.....

Likewise the hangar practices that saw a silica gel bag left in the intake - how and why, and by whom (the identity of the person responsible on the day has, to my knowledge, yet to make it into the public arena) was such a mistake made? The polar opposite of "reasonable care and skill" in anybody's language.

Humans make mistakes and lapses all the time (side note, why on earth would the person who left the bags in the engine intake be identified???). The trick in any organisation is to ensure there’s a Just Culture established, and any mistake is learned from.

I assume you never fly commercially? BA following BAW762?

[Brevet Cable]

And yet museums, etc., make a point of emphasising anything that makes their kit stand out from others.

Do many people, other than the devoted serial loggers actually pay attention to that? Most people couldn't care less

If people couldn't care less, then why do they bother doing it?

[flashman8]

Likewise the hangar practices that saw a silica gel bag left in the intake - how and why, and by whom (the identity of the person responsible on the day has, to my knowledge, yet to make it into the public arena) was such a mistake made? The polar opposite of "reasonable care and skill" in anybody's language.

If the VTTS released the name of the individual concerned, then it would make them look incompetent for letting some one work on 558 who is `unqualified`, they will do what is required to keep them looking like a professional organisation.

I have heard a name mentioned in the past, but until it has been released officially, then its just hearsay.

[Thoughtful_Flyer]

Likewise the hangar practices that saw a silica gel bag left in the intake - how and why, and by whom (the identity of the person responsible on the day has, to my knowledge, yet to make it into the public arena) was such a mistake made? The polar opposite of "reasonable care and skill" in anybody's language.

If the VTTS released the name of the individual concerned, then it would make them look incompetent for letting some one work on 558 who is `unqualified`, they will do what is required to keep them looking like a professional organisation.

How do you work that out?

Presumably, in its flying day, all those who worked on the aircraft were appropriately qualified and certified? If not then surely that would be a criminal offence?

It is perfectly possible for a fully qualified person to make a mistake. They may or may not have failed to take reasonable care, that is another matter. Sadly it happens in all professions, even highly regulated ones like medicine and aviation.

[CJS]

Although never in teaching...

[Xm657]

Likewise the hangar practices that saw a silica gel bag left in the intake - how and why, and by whom (the identity of the person responsible on the day has, to my knowledge, yet to make it into the public arena) was such a mistake made? The polar opposite of "reasonable care and skill" in anybody's language.

If the VTTS released the name of the individual concerned, then it would make them look incompetent for letting some one work on 558 who is `unqualified`, they will do what is required to keep them looking like a professional organisation.

How do you work that out?

Presumably, in its flying day, all those who worked on the aircraft were appropriately qualified and certified? If not then surely that would be a criminal offence?

It is perfectly possible for a fully qualified person to make a mistake. They may or may not have failed to take reasonable care, that is another matter. Sadly it happens in all professions, even highly regulated ones like medicine and aviation.

There was an allegation on the VTTS forum recent (and I stress allegation) that one or more uncertified people prepared 558 that day as the engineering team's arrival had been delayed, and the identity of who had meant to do what covered up. Had the usual team been in attendance the oversight probably wouldnt have happened. If this was true (and I seriously doubt it is true), then it would throw up some legal issues.

I think people need to move on the silica-gate though. The VTTST operated 558 very safely and successfully for 8 years. They are unlikely to ever operate another flying aircraft and dont employ any engineers any more. Let this be in the past, as it has no relevance now.

The BIG mistake the VTTST made was in the retirement plans. I'm not going to labour the B word again. But they failed to make sure Hangar 3 was actually going to be available to them long term until Etna happened, failed to ensure Etna was more than just a pipe dream, and even failed to make sure the airport would allow them to use the main runway for taxiing. They might as well have stuck a pin in a map and landed her anywhere at random, then started to try and build a future wherever that might have been.

[Brevet Cable]

Actually, it was an accusation which was first posted on here.
The person who posted it then bottled out & deleted it after several people challenged the accusation.

Edited to add....

I see that Sam has commented on the accusation on the VTTS website, and an interesting reply it is too.

[bernarde]

Actually, it was an accusation which was first posted on here.
The person who posted it then bottled out & deleted it after several people challenged the accusation.

Edited to add....

I see that Sam has commented on the accusation on the VTTS website, and an interesting reply it is too.

Which backs up my original post - which before anyone says i deleted it and run scared.. oh no i didn't, seem's yet again I hit a nerve with 'management'.

[Brevet Cable]

Yes, it would appear that you were more or less correct ( with the caveats provided by Sam )
Which begs the question why you deleted it - as I posted, if you had the courage of your convictions you wouldn't have done so.

Management? Who...DanO', me, Chris ( 'CJS' ) or some unknown entity who didn't post a comment about your accusation?

[bernarde]

Yes, it would appear that you were more or less correct ( with the caveats provided by Sam )
Which begs the question why you deleted it - as I posted, if you had the courage of your convictions you wouldn't have done so.

Management? Who...DanO', me, Chris ( 'CJS' ) or some unknown entity who didn't post a comment about your accusation?

There's a long running issue, between UKAR, VTTS and me.. VTTS kick off about something truthful I post to UKAR and it's magically removed to keep the peace between the two.

Not to worry, got the truth across and since its posted on the VTTS forum and now backed up by Sam i'm happy the truth is known after all. I'm not out to name names either or the record, I just want the truth to be told by VTTS.

We'll get there eventually

B.

[Brevet Cable]

You could have posted it on the VTTS forum as well, then, given that 'management' don't frequent it but several ex-VTST staff do.

[CJS]

AFAIK no UKAR staffer goes around deleting posts just to'keep the peace'with an outside organisation or charity. If your post was deleted by then, or your were asked to delete it, then I'm sure they had good reason.

I might be wrong, but I don't think I am (at least not in this occasion).

[boff180]

Sigh the aircraft is effectively dead to most and yet this thread refuses to die.

In an effort to provide some points of clarification regarding a few comments/accusations made above...

I can state that according to the topic log since August 2017, the only person to delete or edit a post made by Bernarde in this thread - has been Bernarde.

I can however advise that in Feb 2017 and earlier in 2015 action did have to be taken to delete forum posts containing without-evidence accusations made by members of this forum to protect the website, the forum, and its owners from formal legal action following threats/demands made by parties in a similar vein to the legal case linked below.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... users.html

I will however not go into further details or state which parties were involved as the matter was comprehensively dealt with at the time.

The staff team reserves the right to take whatever action it sees as necessary to protect the website from similar situations in the future; the legal case listed above highlights why just because you can post some things without basis and relative anonymity on a forum, doesn't mean you should.

Andy

[Ken Shabby]

So what were VTTS thinking letting a cosmetic surgeon do the pre-flight checks on '558?

Or have I got the wrong end of the stick here?