Where has XH558 thread gone?

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby MicrolightDriver on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 9:10 am

Great news that the planning permission has been granted.

Of course some will be quick to dismiss the achievement, and ignore the collaborative effort that led to it, but this is clearly an important step towards securing the long term safety of XH558.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby IgnatiusJReilly on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 9:35 am

MicrolightDriver wrote:Of course some will be quick to dismiss the achievement, and ignore the collaborative effort that led to it, but this is clearly an important step towards securing the long term safety of XH558.


I'm sorry, but when you consider the number of salaried employees and consultants who have been available to work on this, the time taken to get to this stage, the generous support provided by professional companies and the great pile of cash that they've burned through these past couple of years... Gaining a non-contested planning consent for a building in a less than desirable location that isn't yet funded, doesn't constitute much of an achievement in my eyes.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby bernarde on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 10:18 am

Swift has jut been moved from the disused F apron and has been put next to 558 out the way. :dunno:
bernarde

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Rockhopper on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 10:19 am

Planning permission for something like this is the easy part. I submit on average three applications a month and more than 99% of them are approved.
They will have three years to make a significant start to the build or the permission will lapse.
If you budget between £1000 and £1500 per m² then you'll be somewhere close.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby MicrolightDriver on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 10:25 am

IgnatiusJReilly wrote:
MicrolightDriver wrote:Of course some will be quick to dismiss the achievement, and ignore the collaborative effort that led to it, but this is clearly an important step towards securing the long term safety of XH558.


I'm sorry, but when you consider the number of salaried employees and consultants who have been available to work on this, the time taken to get to this stage, the generous support provided by professional companies and the great pile of cash that they've burned through these past couple of years... Gaining a non-contested planning consent for a building in a less than desirable location that isn't yet funded, doesn't constitute much of an achievement in my eyes.


As per my comment, some opinions will be to the negative and they will be based no doubt on their experience of developing a similar facility in a similar location, but the fact is VTTS have done the homework and engaged with the right people to successfully obtain the permission they need.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby BDL on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 10:43 am

MicrolightDriver wrote:Of course some will be quick to dismiss the achievement, and ignore the collaborative effort that led to it, but this is clearly an important step towards securing the long term safety of XH558..........but the fact is VTTS have done the homework and engaged with the right people to successfully obtain the permission they need.


Sorry, but utter codswallop. Planning permission will be granted in 99% of cases where there has been no objection or no environmental issues regardless of who you have spoken to. Be that a householder wanting to extend his home or a large "Charity" that is still desperately clinging on to their cash cow.

That was the easy bit, now raise the money to pay for the building in the three years that you have.

*Edit - As Rockhopper said above!
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby MicrolightDriver on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 10:53 am

BDL wrote:
MicrolightDriver wrote:Of course some will be quick to dismiss the achievement, and ignore the collaborative effort that led to it, but this is clearly an important step towards securing the long term safety of XH558..........but the fact is VTTS have done the homework and engaged with the right people to successfully obtain the permission they need.


Sorry, but utter codswallop. Planning permission will be granted in 99% of cases where there has been no objection or no environmental issues regardless of who you have spoken to. Be that a householder wanting to extend his home or a large "Charity" that is still desperately clinging on to their cash cow.

That was the easy bit, now raise the money to pay for the building in the three years that you have.

*Edit - As Rockhopper said above!


But there were objections, and there were environmental issues....

They've done the work with the airport, they've prepared an extensive application supported by various studies / assessments, it's been successful. I appreciate that's really bad news for some, but to me it's another step towards XH558 returning to a hangar.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby IgnatiusJReilly on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 11:21 am

MicrolightDriver wrote:They've done the work with the airport, they've prepared an extensive application supported by various studies / assessments, it's been successful. I appreciate that's really bad news for some, but to me it's another step towards XH558 returning to a hangar.


I thought the 'objections' were clarifications and requests for more detailed information - not strict objections as such.
As we remarked at the time, the fact that the airport was even asking for these clarifications suggested that properly extensive consultation and discussion hadn't actually taken place.

Irrespective, planning permission and a plan for funding the hangar should have been agreed and signed off while XH558 was still flying and as part of the go / no go decision to make Doncaster its post flight home.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby MicrolightDriver on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 11:42 am

IgnatiusJReilly wrote:
MicrolightDriver wrote:They've done the work with the airport, they've prepared an extensive application supported by various studies / assessments, it's been successful. I appreciate that's really bad news for some, but to me it's another step towards XH558 returning to a hangar.


I thought the 'objections' were clarifications and requests for more detailed information - not strict objections as such.....


Perhaps just semantics - I recall you yourself using the term 'objections' in the past, but maybe it was never so? Whatever these 'concerns' were, they were obviously dealt with successfully and there's now a full permission in place for the hangar.

Obviously a difficult challenge now to actually make the hangar happen, I don't think anybody doubts that, but for the sake of XH558 I wish them every success.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby BDL on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 1:21 pm

Microlight, just accept that for a huge number of enthusiasts and long term Vulcan supporters there are serious questions surrounding VtTST and their custodianship of an aircraft that is supposedly "The People's Aircraft".

Many have pointed out that these plans should have been put in place long before she was retired and that retiring at an airport where those who have funded her can't access her was pure folly. The hard job for the trust is now to raise the funds in the timescales set out under planning law. Many long term funders have walked and will not give a penny more. I, like many others, fear for the future of an aircraft that means so much to us all.

I have to say that your continued flag waving is admirable, I admire your tenacity even if I vehemently disagree with your opinion.

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby jalfrezi on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 1:42 pm

BDL wrote:Sorry, but utter codswallop. Planning permission will be granted in 99% of cases where there has been no objection or no environmental issues regardless of who you have spoken to. Be that a householder wanting to extend his home or a large "Charity" that is still desperately clinging on to their cash cow.


Sorry, but I can tell you for a fact that planning permission is not granted in 99% of cases, objections or not, as I used to work in a planning office.

Does anyone know if it was outline planning permission (3 years), or full (5 years)?
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby MicrolightDriver on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 2:09 pm

BDL.

There are obvious concerns, on many levels, about the situation surrounding XH558 at present. Things have clearly not gone as planned at Doncaster. I share many of the concerns.

What I have also explained is my view that 'we are where we are'. Now and onward is the reality we have to deal with. We can all have our views on the situation, but crying over what 'could/should/would' have happened is achieving nothing for XH558.

The only plan now which seeks to offer XH558 an intact and long term future 'inside' is the one being proposed by VTTS. In my view, the various 'chop it up' schemes are simply not acceptable. The vagueness around the notion of a coherent volunteer group suddenly materialising, and being welcome on the airport, overcoming the legal issues around ownership and then successfully maintaining the aircraft for the long term is not inspiring me to join excited calls for a 'coup' at all.

In the absence of anyone proposing a better plan for permanent hangarage, and while nobody (that I know of?) is credibly accusing VTTS of anything illegal, the success of the VTTS plan seems to me the best outcome for XH558. It is not a 'blind loyalty' to anyone, but a simple conclusion that in my view, nobody is proposing a better idea and things might not always be as 'dark' as certain posters like to make out.

People are free to support, or not, and the granting of planning permission is a step forward.
Last edited by MicrolightDriver on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby HeyfordDave111 on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 2:18 pm

With the Swift now joining the weather beaten 558 and camberra in the ‘corner of shame’ part of the airport its a sorry situation for us all.

It looks like an aircraft scrapyard waiting to happen, although we know it won’t, but gaining planning permission and getting a hangar built to the developers (whoever they might be) specifications (remember VTTS will only be tenants) so that it can be easily reused when ETNA comes about (stop laughing at the back) will be another thing, apart from finding a mug daft enough to stump up for the ‘Pleming Folly / vanity project’, as this is no longer what’s good for 558 or indeed the people, but is purely a vanity project for said individual, in a place it’s not really wanted.

I wonder if some company did come forward to pay for the make do building, they would try and get VTTS to guarantee a set fee over xxx years? So even if the trust went T.U., charges would still be levied until the squatter could be removed, then the bailiffs come in.

Very messy proposal above, but I’ve seen worse for less. Now, who’s got £3-5 million to do a hangar with all the VTTS features spare?

Turf cutting in 2045 anyone? :snack:
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Brevet Cable on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 2:34 pm

jalfrezi wrote:[Does anyone know if it was outline planning permission (3 years), or full (5 years)?

Council's website shows...
Application Type : Planning FULL Major

( http://planning.doncaster.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=details&keyVal=OW61G9FXJRD00 )
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby vulcan558 on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 3:03 pm

MicrolightDriver wrote:BDL.

There are obvious concerns, on many levels, about the situation surrounding XH558 at present. Things have clearly not gone as planned at Doncaster. I share many of the concerns.

What I have also explained is my view that 'we are where we are'. Now and onward is the reality we have to deal with. We can all have our views on the situation, but crying over what 'could/should/would' have happened is achieving nothing for XH558.

The only plan now which seeks to offer XH558 an intact and long term future 'inside' is the one being proposed by VTTS. In my view, the various 'chop it up' schemes are simply not acceptable. The vagueness around the notion of a coherent volunteer group suddenly materialising, and being welcome on the airport, overcoming the legal issues around ownership and then successfully maintaining the aircraft for the long term is not inspiring me to join excited calls for a 'coup' at all.

In the absence of anyone proposing a better plan for permanent hangarage, and while nobody (that I know of?) is credibly accusing VTTS of anything illegal, the success of the VTTS plan seems to me the best outcome for XH558. It is not a 'blind loyalty' to anyone, but a simple conclusion that in my view, nobody is proposing a better idea and things might not always be as 'dark' as certain posters like to make out.

People are free to support, or not, and the granting of planning permission is a step forward.


We are not proposing a better idea, we or the majority suggested the best idea, and that was not to go Doncaster.

The planning permission may look to you as a step forward, its a step foward from many steps backwards.
vulcan558

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Xm657 on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 5:56 pm

It's a strange thing for you to say this is bad new for some MicrolightDriver. I certainly hope nobody activity wishes harm to 558. I would say this is the first step on a mountain to climb. I just hope VttST can make more effective use of the money they raise from the public. Afterall if they had been more careful they would already have enough money in the bank to build the hangar outright now themselves. As it stands they need to find a developer as all the money since 2015 has been fritted away. Let's hope they have learned from the mistakes of the past.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby GertrudetheMerciless on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 7:10 pm

Good news that the planning application has been approved. Hopefully funding will be secured from industry and academia but with as little as possible being milked from the too often used public funded begging bowl.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby jalfrezi on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 7:13 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:
jalfrezi wrote:[Does anyone know if it was outline planning permission (3 years), or full (5 years)?

Council's website shows...
Application Type : Planning FULL Major

( http://planning.doncaster.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=details&keyVal=OW61G9FXJRD00 )


Thanks BC! :smile:
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Brevet Cable on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 10:27 pm

Seen this posted on the VTTS forum : https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/news/green-light-for-vulcan-bomber-tourist-attraction-proposals-near-doncaster-airport-1-8923625

If the artists impression is accurate, I wouldn't be a happy bunny if I was the owner of the Swift.....
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby MicrolightDriver on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 11:01 pm

A statement from Dr Pleming:-

We are delighted to report that yesterday, Thursday 21st December, Doncaster Metropolitan Borough Council granted planning permission for our new heritage hangar at Doncaster Sheffield Airport. Work already ongoing to secure the financial backing for the development can now proceed with much increased confidence.

Robert Pleming, on behalf of the Trust, stated: “This really is a wonderful Christmas present. It’s a major step forward and marks a significant milestone in the development the our new hangar, coming after months of work by several firms and consultants working pro-bono for the Trust. They have really looked after our interests and settled last minute queries in order to secure this positive decision just before Christmas. We thank them and the officers of the council most sincerely for their efforts.”

The formal Decision Notice has not yet been published, but the conditions stipulated on the approval are not unreasonable, are standard within the building industry, and present no major obstacles to progress.

Please look out for more updates on developments in the New Year by following our newsletters or the website for the latest.

Wonderful news with which to end the year!
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Xm657 on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 9:23 am

So basically Mr Pleming has achieved the first step in a process he should have had all sorted out in advance of comiting 558 to an eternity in Doncaster. Yet it's being spun as a major achievement. It's is unknown if he could have obtained planning permission for a hangar at Bruntingthorpe so let's hope this permission at Doncaster isn't thawted by lack of funding. Keeping enough paying guests to pay the rent coming through the door for decades to come will be a big ask.
Xm657

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby aviodromefriend on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 9:33 am

Brevet Cable wrote:If the artists impression is accurate, I wouldn't be a happy bunny if I was the owner of the Swift.....
Just read what the article says:
Artists impressions which formed part of the planning application for the hangar included the Vulcan, a 1950s Canberra bomber, which the trust hopes to restore to flying condition, and a Supermarine Swift cold war jet fighter, inside the building.
DISCLAIMER: bold edited by me.

Further info the article gives: the sewage works is no longer there:
had planning permission approved to create a hangar on a site next to Doncaster Sheffield Airport which was once used as a sewage treatment works.
A weather forecast is a forecast and just that

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby HeyfordDave111 on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 9:42 am

With 2018 being the third year in which 558 was grounded, what exactly have the Vtts boys and girls actually done in that time for the betterment of the aircraft?

How much has 558 actually done, regarding high speed runs, engine runs etc?

It beggars belief that some here, and I salute your passion for the subject, still seem to put rosy spectacles on when posting.

It’s coming up to 3 years chaps, no plan was really ever in place, 2 hangars later it’s outside along with a loaner and the airfix kit, in what looks like an airoplane graveyard. 3 years to get a sodding hangar built and it looks like it might be at least another 12 months if they start digging January 1st. (And we know that’s not going to happen). That’s 4 years!!! :facepalm:

That’s what we now are pretty much up in arms about. Some say bruntingthorpe, some say Elvington, but either way those 2 would have been better than the mess it’s in right now.

This vanity project has gone on long enough and the ‘old boy network’ seems to have pulled together and closed ranks so that no dissension has been addressed with the HLF turning a blind eye to this farago.

My word, do we actually think, for example, that after keeping her safe, dry and warm for many years, Mr Walton, for example, would have left his baby out at the corner of the airfield to weather and get cold? I think not!

The problem is, and has been, since the last flight, VTTS and the vanity project / self aggrandisement by the top of the tree within the organisation.

It’s blundered, yes blundered, from 1 situation to another, feeding the gullible spin after spin while. It actually doing anything. Unless you consider trying to sell over priced tat or who can build a fold up Vulcan and fly it the quickest comp, actually doing something.

I feel sorry for those that lost their jobs and those that actually contribute to her health for the cr@p situation most have found themselves in. It cannot and surely isn’t, a pleasant experience anymore for them.

Fingers crossed something happens soon, as otherwise the begging bowl will be out again, you can just see it.
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HeyfordDave111

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Reds Rolling on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 12:02 pm

HeyfordDave111 wrote:My word, do we actually think, for example, that after keeping her safe, dry and warm for many years, Mr Walton, for example, would have left his baby out at the corner of the airfield to weather and get cold? I think not!

What naive rubbish. It would have spent the last three years outside with all the other rusting relics.

Walton is a business man, and he wouldn't waste valuable hangar space just so 558 could stay out of the rain. :facepalm:
Reds Rolling

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby ExVulcanGC on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 12:07 pm

Fingers crossed something happens soon, as otherwise the begging bowl will be out again, you can just see it.


Even if, or when, they do ask for more money, there is still a vast number of people who still are, and will continue, to pay into the pot, irregardless of where that money actually ends up, all engine runs have been fully attended, despite the cost, people do still pay membership, the stickers on the wings seems to have succeeded in getting money in, the raffle will probably sell out and the sale of 'tat' continues.

So while they know that they have a dedicated money source they will carry on as normal, eventually people might catch on and stop throwing money at them, but it is not going to be anytime soon.
ExVulcanGC

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