Where has XH558 thread gone?

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Dan213 on Fri 11 May 2018, 3:56 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:
Dan213 wrote:
Brevet Cable wrote:There's a difference between the 'Trust' ( as in VTST ) and the 'Trustees' ( which is what 'XR219' is )


Correct, he doesn't take a salary but he is still involved with the operation and therefore is accountable partially for the events that have occurred.

Not quite.
The Trustees have oversight but are not involved in the operation.


"the people who share ultimate responsibility for governing a charity and directing how it is managed and run"

From the UK government 'roles of a charity trustee' page

So my point stands, the trustees are responsible for how the charity is run and therefore should bear some responsibility for the current situation
Dan213

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby MicrolightDriver on Fri 11 May 2018, 4:29 pm

Looks like a decent day for both the EGR events tomorrow. Perhaps some better pictures showing 558's current condition will appear online?

In any case, hopefully all goes well, people enjoy their day and there will be more events planned for the near future.
A proud 'Vulcanist'!
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MicrolightDriver

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby XR219 on Fri 11 May 2018, 8:19 pm

Dan213 wrote:
Brevet Cable wrote:
Dan213 wrote:
Brevet Cable wrote:There's a difference between the 'Trust' ( as in VTST ) and the 'Trustees' ( which is what 'XR219' is )


Correct, he doesn't take a salary but he is still involved with the operation and therefore is accountable partially for the events that have occurred.

Not quite.
The Trustees have oversight but are not involved in the operation.


"the people who share ultimate responsibility for governing a charity and directing how it is managed and run"

From the UK government 'roles of a charity trustee' page

So my point stands, the trustees are responsible for how the charity is run and therefore should bear some responsibility for the current situation



We're completely responsible for the current situation. That's what being a Trustee means. Of course I don't draw a salary, in case there is any doubt about that. You know who I am, it's not difficult to find out how I actually pay the bills...
@steveliddle558
Vulcan to the Sky Trust Trustee (although expressing my own views)
XR219

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Xm657 on Sat 12 May 2018, 1:30 am

vulcan558 wrote:The Vulcan xh558 Spares stores are having a big sale on Saturday the 19th of May.
Lots of new lots for sale if your intrested in this type of stuff.


I wonder if after all the parts have finally been sold off they start selling bits of 558 herself? Maybe you'll be able to buy the bit of wing with your name on. What a farse.
Xm657

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby IgnatiusJReilly on Sat 12 May 2018, 10:18 am

XR219 wrote:We're completely responsible for the current situation. That's what being a Trustee means.


So what are the trustee's doing to fix this mess?
Surely the first priority should be to restructure the trust to a purely volunteer based organisation? No salaries, no consultancy fees. Volunteers.
With the close second being to enable affordable access to the aircraft for all, especially kids & school groups.

At some point the trustees have to take some control over this situation and be seen to be taking the steps neccessary to put this right. It won't be easy or comfortable, but I'm afraid anything less would be a shocking dereliction of responsibility.
Eccentric, idealistic, and creative, sometimes to the point of delusion..
IgnatiusJReilly

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby HeyfordDave111 on Sat 12 May 2018, 11:51 am

IgnatiusJReilly wrote:
XR219 wrote:We're completely responsible for the current situation. That's what being a Trustee means.


So what are the trustee's doing to fix this mess?
Surely the first priority should be to restructure the trust to a purely volunteer based organisation? No salaries, no consultancy fees. Volunteers.
With the close second being to enable affordable access to the aircraft for all, especially kids & school groups.

At some point the trustees have to take some control over this situation and be seen to be taking the steps neccessary to put this right. It won't be easy or comfortable, but I'm afraid anything less would be a shocking dereliction of responsibility.


good point, can you imagine living withthe fact that you have not done anything and should have?
you'd be villified!
Got to love Russianhardware
HeyfordDave111

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Xm657 on Sun 13 May 2018, 8:04 pm

It would be nice to think they might have some regrets privately but not willing to say publically they got it wrong - which would likely torpedo any slim chance of a hangar investor coming forward and curtail the funding raising/wage bill.

However I hear nothing but bullish arrogance that they are 100% right and Doncaster will be a utopia before we know it. Alternatives are belittled and they carry on with the folly. When the end comes it will be a so tragic that they wouldn't listen to common sense and trusted their inflated egos so much. The public will have been bled dry for nothing before any could be done - assuming there is anything that can be done now which I doubt.
Xm657

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Marathon Milkshake on Mon 14 May 2018, 8:14 am

XR219 wrote:

We're completely responsible for the current situation. That's what being a Trustee means. Of course I don't draw a salary, in case there is any doubt about that. You know who I am, it's not difficult to find out how I actually pay the bills...


Nope no idea at all who you are, assuming that we all know is just pure ego. So if the trustees are completely responsible for the current situation why is nothing seemingly been done to save 558 from the enevitable scrapping? and why dont all of you resign from the board so that others can save 558 from the enevitable scrapping?
Those that matter, don't mind. Those that mind, don't matter
Marathon Milkshake

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby XR219 on Mon 14 May 2018, 8:52 am

Marathon Milkshake wrote:
Nope no idea at all who you are, assuming that we all know is just pure ego.


I was referring to the fact that my name (albeit in twitter form) is in my signature line every time I post. Consequently I am very easy to identify and find out about if you need to satisfy yourself that my source of income is not the VTTST. It isn't there because I want to be famous - I'm not sure this is the obvious path to choose if so.
@steveliddle558
Vulcan to the Sky Trust Trustee (although expressing my own views)
XR219

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Brevet Cable on Mon 14 May 2018, 9:33 am

Not forgetting that you're also listed on the Trustees page ( along with a brief biog. ) on the VTTS website. :biggrin:
Meh !!
Not an enthusiast or a spotter
trollpikken fforwm swyddogol
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Brevet Cable

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Marathon Milkshake on Mon 14 May 2018, 1:42 pm

XR219 wrote:
Marathon Milkshake wrote:
Nope no idea at all who you are, assuming that we all know is just pure ego.


I was referring to the fact that my name (albeit in twitter form) is in my signature line every time I post. Consequently I am very easy to identify and find out about if you need to satisfy yourself that my source of income is not the VTTST. It isn't there because I want to be famous - I'm not sure this is the obvious path to choose if so.


Sure, that didnt answer my two questions though.
Those that matter, don't mind. Those that mind, don't matter
Marathon Milkshake

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby XR219 on Mon 14 May 2018, 2:35 pm

XH558’s scrapping isn’t inevitable, so both of your questions are fundamentally flawed. Still, I’ll try and put my massive ego to one side and understand where you’re coming from.

Marathon Milkshake wrote: So if the trustees are completely responsible for the current situation why is nothing seemingly been done to save 558 from the enevitable scrapping?


The key is the word ‘seemingly’, which is as frustrating to us as I imagine it is for you. We’ve explained the plan, which is to construct a viable, long term home for the aircraft under cover. In this endeavour, VTTST are dealing with the airport and other interested parties on a commercial in confidence basis, as anyone else would need to. As a trustee, I’m satisfied that progress that is being made and that the plan remains viable. Not being able to report on that or share fully with our supporters in real time is unfortunate, but hopefully the end justifies the means.

Marathon Milkshake wrote:and why dont all of you resign from the board so that others can save 558 from the enevitable scrapping?


I can only speak for myself. I am content that the current board of trustees has the correct mix of skills, competencies and contacts to deliver on this plan. I believe that I play a worthwhile role on the board, although that is for others to comment on. I also very much do not wish to walk away without seeing the project through. None of which is to say that individual members or indeed the whole board could not be replaced, but in my opinion you would need a similar mix.
@steveliddle558
Vulcan to the Sky Trust Trustee (although expressing my own views)
XR219

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby MiG_Eater on Mon 14 May 2018, 2:54 pm

XR219, whilst I admire your commitment I really feel you are flogging a dead horse. Your project *has* been seen through. It was one of the most monumental achievements in UK civil aviation history and is something that you and your colleagues can be immensely proud of. I was born in 1989 and I dreamed of seeing a Vulcan in the year throughout my childhood - you guys made this happen and gave us all memories we can carry with us forever.

Although it would have been great if the aircraft could have continued flying (in the UK or abroad) the decision was made to keep it as a ground exhibit. The obvious place to keep the aircraft running live was Bruntingthorpe and for reasons I will never truly understand, this wonderful place - and the family who saved the Vulcan in the first place - have been left apart from the aircraft's final resting place.

Everyone on the board must now realise that regular taxi runs are an impossibility at Doncaster. At least let's see if we can get XH558 roaded to a place where it can actually be seen, even if not under power. "The Peoples' Aircraft..." impossible to see without forking out ridiculous sums of money. How ironic, and what a terrible shame.
MiG_Eater

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Mon 14 May 2018, 3:37 pm

MiG_Eater wrote:XR219, whilst I admire your commitment I really feel you are flogging a dead horse. Your project *has* been seen through. It was one of the most monumental achievements in UK civil aviation history and is something that you and your colleagues can be immensely proud of. I was born in 1989 and I dreamed of seeing a Vulcan in the year throughout my childhood - you guys made this happen and gave us all memories we can carry with us forever.

Although it would have been great if the aircraft could have continued flying (in the UK or abroad) the decision was made to keep it as a ground exhibit. The obvious place to keep the aircraft running live was Bruntingthorpe and for reasons I will never truly understand, this wonderful place - and the family who saved the Vulcan in the first place - have been left apart from the aircraft's final resting place.

Everyone on the board must now realise that regular taxi runs are an impossibility at Doncaster. At least let's see if we can get XH558 roaded to a place where it can actually be seen, even if not under power. "The Peoples' Aircraft..." impossible to see without forking out ridiculous sums of money. How ironic, and what a terrible shame.


Impossible to argue with a word of that.

The clue was in "Vulcan To The SKY". It flew. Mission accomplished. And that's where the Trust should have disbanded, after retiring it to an accessible location and handed it over to responsible volunteers.

Vulcan To The Sky Trust is no longer needed, its name is toxic to the enthusiast community and those associated with it have clung on far, far too long. As one final gesture, funds need raising for a road move. There is STILL the goodwill for that, providing that the money raised is ONLY used for the transportation of XH558, then all can finally step away with a shred of dignity still intact.
Dan O'Hagan

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby MicrolightDriver on Mon 14 May 2018, 4:37 pm

I'm very glad VTTS are in charge if 'chop it up' is the best alternative plan.
A proud 'Vulcanist'!
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MicrolightDriver

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby MiG_Eater on Mon 14 May 2018, 6:06 pm

That's a clear misrepresentation of what we're saying.
MiG_Eater

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby beastman2377 on Mon 14 May 2018, 6:12 pm

MicrolightDriver wrote:I'm very glad VTTS are in charge if 'chop it up' is the best alternative plan.


No, its just probably the best alternative plan 'now'.

You keep asking if anyone has any better ideas, and they did, and they were disregarded. Now your up a steaming creek with no means of propulsion, you keep knocking out "has anyone got a better idea then?".

No, they haven't. Not now. Its too late for the better ideas.

What a sad state of affairs.
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beastman2377

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Mon 14 May 2018, 6:21 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:As one final gesture, funds need raising for a road move. There is STILL the goodwill for that, providing that the money raised is ONLY used for the transportation of XH558, then all can finally step away with a shred of dignity still intact.

I can't go along with that. Raising funds would be just another monumental waste of money. The time to move it has been and gone, that ship has sailed. It is where it is. There are plenty of other Vulcans to which people can get up close and/or in two cases, see ground running. There is no reason, at all, to raise a penny to move this one. If it can't be a success where it is now, then it will fold and rot. Good. Best thing for it.

RNHF have had their government funding withdrawn, and the Sea Vixen is in need of a large sum to ever get that going again. Regardless how insurmountable that may look now, projects like these have hope and a future. This Vulcan does not. It is dead. Move on and forget about it. The sooner people do, the sooner this sorry affair will come to a conclusion.
"You really are an oafish philistine at times!"
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LN Strike Eagle
UKAR Staff

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby pbeardmore on Mon 14 May 2018, 6:59 pm

The charity reminds me a little of UKIP. Considering their size and relative lack of resources, they punched way above their weight and succeeded in the specific task they set themselves. But, having done so, they failed to consider thier future AFTER that date. And the results are pure turmoil with no real direction and a mixed/confused message in exactly why they now exist.

"Vulcan to the Sky" is the expression of a future wish/goal. "Vulcan in the Sky" was the success of that wish and "Vulcan Grounded" is the current position. The failure to re-brand and keep up with the current situation is remarkable IMHO.
“The best computer is a man, and it’s the only one that can be mass-produced by unskilled labour.”
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pbeardmore

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby XR219 on Mon 14 May 2018, 7:15 pm

Crikey! I can live with the stuff about being a bunch of misguided fraudulent crooks, but to be equated to Farage! Not a good day.
@steveliddle558
Vulcan to the Sky Trust Trustee (although expressing my own views)
XR219

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby MicrolightDriver on Mon 14 May 2018, 7:23 pm

beastman2377 wrote:
MicrolightDriver wrote:I'm very glad VTTS are in charge if 'chop it up' is the best alternative plan.


No, its just probably the best alternative plan 'now'.

You keep asking if anyone has any better ideas, and they did, and they were disregarded. Now your up a steaming creek with no means of propulsion, you keep knocking out "has anyone got a better idea then?".

No, they haven't. Not now. Its too late for the better ideas...


As I've said before, I just don't think XH558 will benefit from anyone ( enthusiast or VTTS ) crying over spilt milk at this stage. For me, it's simply about whichever option is aimed at maintaining this working Vulcan under cover for the long term, and then getting on with it. Frankly, VTTS' plan seems to be the only one on the table.
A proud 'Vulcanist'!
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MicrolightDriver

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Xm657 on Mon 14 May 2018, 7:36 pm

MicrolightDriver wrote:As I've said before, I just don't think XH558 will benefit from anyone ( enthusiast or VTTS ) crying over spilt milk at this stage. For me, it's simply about whichever option is aimed at maintaining this working Vulcan under cover for the long term, and then getting on with it. Frankly, VTTS' plan seems to be the only one on the table.


It probably is the only option MicrolightDriver, but what troubles me is the VTTS got us into this mess, can they/should they, be trusted to get us out of it? Or will they make matters worse with their insastiable appetite for salaries and terrible decision making abilities. If someone badly screws up their job, they should be fired, not just left to have another go. I think there is a good chance people who are very upset with the current situation would get back behind it if there were some management changes and financial restructing. Too much trust has been lost and there is too much suspicion that funds are being leeched away not benefitting the aircraft.
Xm657

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Xm657 on Mon 14 May 2018, 7:42 pm

LN Strike Eagle wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote:As one final gesture, funds need raising for a road move. There is STILL the goodwill for that, providing that the money raised is ONLY used for the transportation of XH558, then all can finally step away with a shred of dignity still intact.

I can't go along with that. Raising funds would be just another monumental waste of money. The time to move it has been and gone, that ship has sailed. It is where it is. There are plenty of other Vulcans to which people can get up close and/or in two cases, see ground running. There is no reason, at all, to raise a penny to move this one. If it can't be a success where it is now, then it will fold and rot. Good. Best thing for it.

RNHF have had their government funding withdrawn, and the Sea Vixen is in need of a large sum to ever get that going again. Regardless how insurmountable that may look now, projects like these have hope and a future. This Vulcan does not. It is dead. Move on and forget about it. The sooner people do, the sooner this sorry affair will come to a conclusion.


Probably true, but there would be a better chance for her at Bruntingthorpe surrounded by her contemporaries. Whether it would be worth the cost though I dont know, especially if she wouldn't be able to taxi any more after the move. As a static exhibit she might as well stay where she is, maybe at some point it will be relatively inexpensive to move her the short distance to the Doncaster Air Musuem.
Xm657

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby MicrolightDriver on Mon 14 May 2018, 7:55 pm

All very well demanding 'change' but in most situations in order attract support there'd be a candidate, an applicant, a rival etc spelling out their 'better' plan, and explaining their ability to deliver. People can then think rationally about whether they want to stick with what they've got, or support something new.

In this case, no such proposal or organisation exists - you'd be voting for a 'change' without any notion of the consequences, and those consequences could be catastrophic for XH558. Safe ground to turn round and jeer something along the lines of 'Yeah but it couldn't be any worse!'... but it could be worse, a lot worse. If someone doesn't care about the aircraft it might be a risk they're happy to take. Maybe some people don't even see it as a risk at all.

People have been performing premature post-mortems on XH558 and VTTS for years, only to be proven spectacularly wrong. Who can really say that the outcome of this situation won't prove people wrong again?
A proud 'Vulcanist'!
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MicrolightDriver

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby GertrudetheMerciless on Mon 14 May 2018, 8:52 pm

XR219 wrote:I was referring to the fact that my name (albeit in twitter form) is in my signature line every time I post. Consequently I am very easy to identify and find out about if you need to satisfy yourself that my source of income is not the VTTST.


Steady on Steve; we're not all rocket scientists (or aerodynamicists!). :lol:
GertrudetheMerciless

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