Where has XH558 thread gone?

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby IgnatiusJReilly on Sun 20 May 2018, 8:27 pm

Xm657 wrote:Indeed, I'd heard Taff Stone has been back at Doncaster for some time.


I thought I'd read that Taff Stone was being paid a 'retainer' to work on XH558 when required, as opposed to being kept on as a full time employee.
Is that still the case or have his terms changed?

Which would suggest that for 'the peoples aircraft', shop assistants are more valuable to the enterprise than Vulcan engineering expertise...
Eccentric, idealistic, and creative, sometimes to the point of delusion..
IgnatiusJReilly

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Xm657 on Mon 21 May 2018, 11:11 am

IgnatiusJReilly wrote:
Xm657 wrote:Indeed, I'd heard Taff Stone has been back at Doncaster for some time.


I thought I'd read that Taff Stone was being paid a 'retainer' to work on XH558 when required, as opposed to being kept on as a full time employee.
Is that still the case or have his terms changed?

Which would suggest that for 'the peoples aircraft', shop assistants are more valuable to the enterprise than Vulcan engineering expertise...


Sorry I should have been more clear. Both are true: he is employed full time at Doncaster by 2Excel, ironically in Hangar 3. He is also retained by VTTST on a zero hours contract to supervise/assist with engineering as required. The fact he is working at Doncaster airport every day is I think helpful to 558 as he is on hand and may keep an eye on her as he is passing by anyway.

Right now, shop assistants and managers are more valuable than engineering, as the Trust is very much a fund raising organisation. What little engineering they have can be achieved with volunteers and a little of Taff's paid time. In my view the shop keeping and management could also be voluntary - VRT and 655Maps seem to manage it. The argument presumably is that while the prospect of a multi million pound hangar and visitor centre is still talked about seriously a professional salaried workforce is needed. Unless the hangar is built secured soon though, surely the argument for retaining the rest of the paid employees evaporates. But remember it took £110K to pay for redundancies last time so it wont be cheap to let these 9 or 10 people go when the time comes.
Xm657

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Xm657 on Mon 21 May 2018, 11:16 am

Gregg wrote:Who was in charge and overseeing things the day the silica bags weren't seen?


Alledged, whoever it was, wasnt on site at the time...But I tend to agree with what others have said: whatever happened, it has no relevance to the current status of 558 and it seems petty to dwell on this one mistake in what what 8 years of exceptionally safe and well operated flying. Its the retirement plans that I think they got totally wrong.
Xm657

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby IgnatiusJReilly on Mon 21 May 2018, 11:43 am

Xm657 wrote:But remember it took £110K to pay for redundancies last time so it wont be cheap to let these 9 or 10 people go when the time comes.


Things may well have changed, but a charity I previously supported was required to always keep a reserve sufficient to cover the winding up costs of that organisation. Specifically, redundancy payments. They were very aware that they weren't allowed to continue operating if their reserves fell below that level.
I'm not at all familiar with the current financial rules, but I'd be surprised if much has changed with that regard.

Either way, a charity really shouldn't exist just to raise money to pay their staff, to raise money. There should be a lot more focus on how much is being raised and how much is directly being spent on the aircraft.
If Taff is on a zero hours contract supporting a team of volunteers, to hibernate a static aircraft parked on the fringe of an airfield, that hardly justifies a sizeable commercial organisation raising tens of thousands a month.
IF... these past months, the trust have been squirrelling away a hefty war chest of cash, in order to pay for the hangar build, then this will quickly be revealed in the next set of accounts and VTTS will rightly be lauded for their success. If on the other hand, every penny has gone on salaries & consultancy fees, then I would hope that the Charities commission would step in and bring a halt to this farce.
Eccentric, idealistic, and creative, sometimes to the point of delusion..
IgnatiusJReilly

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby 106500 on Mon 21 May 2018, 5:16 pm

IgnatiusJReilly wrote:
Xm657 wrote:But remember it took £110K to pay for redundancies last time so it wont be cheap to let these 9 or 10 people go when the time comes.


Things may well have changed, but a charity I previously supported was required to always keep a reserve sufficient to cover the winding up costs of that organisation. Specifically, redundancy payments. They were very aware that they weren't allowed to continue operating if their reserves fell below that level.
I'm not at all familiar with the current financial rules, but I'd be surprised if much has changed with that regard.

Either way, a charity really shouldn't exist just to raise money to pay their staff, to raise money. There should be a lot more focus on how much is being raised and how much is directly being spent on the aircraft.
If Taff is on a zero hours contract supporting a team of volunteers, to hibernate a static aircraft parked on the fringe of an airfield, that hardly justifies a sizeable commercial organisation raising tens of thousands a month.
IF... these past months, the trust have been squirrelling away a hefty war chest of cash, in order to pay for the hangar build, then this will quickly be revealed in the next set of accounts and VTTS will rightly be lauded for their success. If on the other hand, every penny has gone on salaries & consultancy fees, then I would hope that the Charities commission would step in and bring a halt to this farce.



Ref: IF... these past months, the trust have been squirrelling away a hefty war chest of cash, in order to pay for the hangar build, then this will quickly be revealed in the next set of accounts and VTTS will rightly be lauded for their success.

In the event of this outcome I fear that a significant proportion of posters on this thread could not bring themselves to laud such a VTTS success, so entrenched are they in their views?
106500

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby MiG_Eater on Mon 21 May 2018, 5:22 pm

The trouble is, even if the hangar is built it doesn't address the issue of it being awkward (if not impossible) to do regular fast taxis. Having XH558 at a large active airport was, in my view, always a bad idea.

If, on the other hand, as a result of their work they get the Canberra flying I will take back all my criticism and begin to donate to them again.

Time will tell and I genuinely do live in hope.
MiG_Eater

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Xm657 on Mon 21 May 2018, 5:59 pm

The last set off accounts took us up to 31 October 2016 and were filed 04 Sep 2017, previous accounts were also up to 31 Oct so their financial year end must end 31st Oct. So we can expect a new set of accounts in about 4 or 5 months time which will reveal the financial status of the Trust as at autumn last year. We therefore wont be any the wiser as to the current financial position, as at in Oct 2017 the coffers understandably would have been fairly empty. I suppose it will reveal the level of ongoing fundraising they have and how much is brought in by the various ebay fire sales and engine runs. And more importantly what the current payroll expenditure is as it will be broadly similar to now.

My view is they are simply hand to mouth right now though, hanging on until a developer builds them a hangar. It has said repeatedly that their main source of income was through the activities in hangar 3, which has been absent now for 18 months. Conservatively assuming an average annual salary of £30K per person they will need £25,000 per month to just meet the payroll (assuming 10 paid employees). That's an awful lot of spare parts on Ebay, or 834 plaques painted on the wing (per month), or 250 people viewing engine runs (per month) + fuel to do the engine runs. I'm actually surprised they can continue at all, unless the payroll and number of paid employees is much lower than we think. There seems absolutely no chance to me they will have been able to put much aside let alone raise anywhere near enough to build a hangar themselves.

I'm not sure people are "entrenched in their views". Nobody is necessarily anti VTTST per say, they are just sick of the VTTST ignoring the wishes of their previous supporters only for their unpopular plans to soon turn out to be as disastrous as we warned. Next weekend is Bruntingthorpe's open day: so we are denied enjoying 558 fast taxi at Bruntingthorpe for a third year, on the promise that her future will be so much better as Doncaster. Well so far, it hasn't been. As I've said before, if Bruntingthorpe ends in a couple of years time and 558 goes on to taxi up and down Doncaster's runway for decades to come we will quite rightly owe Mr Pleming an enormous apology. But if its the other way round - he owes us an even bigger one - he will have let down all the supporters, 558 and himself.
Xm657

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby IgnatiusJReilly on Tue 22 May 2018, 12:43 pm

It's interesting that whenever there's talk of responsible oversight & action from the trustees, Steve Liddle disappears from view..
A more cynical man might ponder whether talk of silica bags and rolling is just a reliable, tried & trusted distraction mechanism to avoid answering what the trustees are actually going to do to fix this situation.

It's clear that nothing meaningful is really going on now beyond the trusts monthly efforts to fund the monthly salary bill. Whilst it's going to be a while before the next set of accounts will be published, it does provide some sort of artificial line in the sand after which I would say that it should be untenable for the trustees to continue 'business as usual'.
Eccentric, idealistic, and creative, sometimes to the point of delusion..
IgnatiusJReilly

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby pbeardmore on Tue 22 May 2018, 1:34 pm

The delay (quite legal) in the required accounts filing means that its never possible to really know whats going on if the charity dont give away any further information. Things can slide very quickly and knowing what happened up to Oct 2017 whilst reviewing in Sept 2018 will in no way will give the full , "real time" story.

I think one of the key things will be the valuation of the airframe as last time, it was extraordinary (someone remind me?). By doing this, it gave the impression that the charity was asset rich and, therefore, in better health than a lower, more realistic figure. I wonder if the Trustees have discussed this or requested an independent expert valuation?

Just looked it up, £791112 in "heritage assets". I would be very interested to see how this figure changes within the next set of accounts. The Vulcan was valued at £739.286.

As at 31 October 2015, the Board valued the aircraft at £750,000. The nature of the asset means it is not possible to derive a market valuation. The trustees therefore valued the aircraft, based on their knowledge and experience of working in the aviation industry. As at 31 October 2016, the Board have reassessed their valuation of the aircraft and still consider it to be reasonable.

An admission of no attempt to get an indepedent valuation or benchmark the value against other airframes. A reduction from £750,000 to £739,286 was agreed. By definition, everything has a market value. It's the price the market will pay. Everything has a market value. How is it not possible to gain a market valuation? I'm surpised the accountant's signed off on that.

Any team of trustees within any charity can boost the reported value of their assets by saying that its not possible to derrive a market value of assets but we have agreed its worth £xxxx. :dizzy:

http://www.charitysorp.org/media/620446 ... ule-12.pdf

12. Write-down of assets to their recoverable amounts
Introduction
12.1. The FRSSE requires that fixed assets and goodwill must be carried in the balance
sheet at no more than the recoverable amount. The recoverable amount of an asset
is the higher of the amounts that can be obtained from selling the asset (i.e. net
realisable value) or continuing to use the asset in the business (i.e. value in use). If the
carrying amount (net book amount) of a fixed asset or goodwill is considered not to be
recoverable in full at the balance sheet date, the carrying value of the asset must be
written down to the estimated recoverable amount.
Last edited by pbeardmore on Tue 22 May 2018, 2:18 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby XR219 on Tue 22 May 2018, 1:54 pm

IgnatiusJReilly wrote:It's interesting that whenever there's talk of responsible oversight & action from the trustees, Steve Liddle disappears from view..
A more cynical man might ponder whether talk of silica bags and rolling is just a reliable, tried & trusted distraction mechanism to avoid answering what the trustees are actually going to do to fix this situation.



Steve Liddle is here, but has his hands full of other stuff as we speak. Rest assured, oversight is being provided.

I was actually composing a reply to address your previous post, which I thought contained some reasonable questions…
@steveliddle558
Vulcan to the Sky Trust Trustee (although expressing my own views)
XR219

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Xm657 on Tue 22 May 2018, 6:22 pm

pbeardmore, I seem to remember that we all remarked at the time what a coincidence the Vulcan was valued as £750K which was the exact same amount the HLF has a charge over if for. So they were valuing it as the amount that they owed the HLF, or in other words, the market value is £0 but you have to pay the HLF £750K to fully own your own Vulcan. I believe the charge reduces over the years, so I guess 558 will eventually be worth either scrap value or whatever someone wants to pay for a running Vulcan. Remember the Blackpool Vulcan sold on eBay. Some pub landlord bought it before realising the cost of dismantling and movement by road made it worthless.

So unless someone wants to buy 558 to occasionally run its engines at Doncaster airport and look at it parked next to a sewage works, I think the market for it is pretty small.
Xm657

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby ericbee123 on Tue 22 May 2018, 6:48 pm

Xm657 wrote: Remember the Blackpool Vulcan sold on eBay. Some pub landlord bought it before realising the cost of dismantling and movement by road made it worthless.
.


It was also down to the fact it was a rusting hunk of junk that would have fallen apart during dismantling and transport. There is still a Vulcan shaped rust patch where it was !!
Disclaimer-I have spell/grammar checked this post, it may still contain mistakes that might cause offence.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Xm657 on Tue 22 May 2018, 7:34 pm

ericbee123 wrote:
Xm657 wrote: Remember the Blackpool Vulcan sold on eBay. Some pub landlord bought it before realising the cost of dismantling and movement by road made it worthless.
.


It was also down to the fact it was a rusting hunk of junk that would have fallen apart during dismantling and transport. There is still a Vulcan shaped rust patch where it was !!


That didn't help! But no he wasn't deterred by that and still tried to have it transported. However the cost of doing so was several multiples of what he'd paid for it, and ended up getting less in scrap value that the ebay price. 558 may be in immaculate condition but I think the same is true, the market value is a negative number since nobody in their right mind is going to buy her, if anything to become the custodian of 558 you'd almost want the VTTST to pay you since it would be a money pit the moment you took ownership:-
Debt to the HLF
Parking Fees if the airport starts charging which they surely eventually will
Need to build a hangar if you don't want it to turn corrode
Six figure sum if you want to dismantle and move it somewhere else cheaper or able to taxi

and so on....
Xm657

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby pbeardmore on Tue 22 May 2018, 7:50 pm

All the work needed to keep the airframe in good condition is proof that, overall the airframe is a drain on the charity rather than a £750000 asset.

At least whilst it was flying , there was the argument that it was totally unique but that argument has gone. It is a taxiable Vulcan, pure and simple so can anyone even attempt to justify its formal valuation?
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Xm657 on Tue 22 May 2018, 9:02 pm

pbeardmore wrote:All the work needed to keep the airframe in good condition is proof that, overall the airframe is a drain on the charity rather than a £750000 asset.

At least whilst it was flying , there was the argument that it was totally unique but that argument has gone. It is a taxiable Vulcan, pure and simple so can anyone even attempt to justify its formal valuation?


Sadly it is a taxiable Vulcan stranded at an airport which reportedly is completely against it being taxied. Its a Vulcan in the wrong place. Its only valuable if it was somewhere else, as at Doncaster it is a massively liability/responsibility to maintain with little reward. Whoever ends up looking after it into the future will only have to spend large sums to look at it and occasional hear it roar on the engine pad. Its a very sad mess in my opinion which I can't see any solution to, unless the VTTST's mythical developer steps forward or a very rich benefactor steps in.
Xm657

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby 106500 on Wed 23 May 2018, 11:06 am

Xm657 wrote:
pbeardmore wrote:All the work needed to keep the airframe in good condition is proof that, overall the airframe is a drain on the charity rather than a £750000 asset.

At least whilst it was flying , there was the argument that it was totally unique but that argument has gone. It is a taxiable Vulcan, pure and simple so can anyone even attempt to justify its formal valuation?


Sadly it is a taxiable Vulcan stranded at an airport which reportedly is completely against it being taxied. Its a Vulcan in the wrong place. Its only valuable if it was somewhere else, as at Doncaster it is a massively liability/responsibility to maintain with little reward. Whoever ends up looking after it into the future will only have to spend large sums to look at it and occasional hear it roar on the engine pad. Its a very sad mess in my opinion which I can't see any solution to, unless the VTTST's mythical developer steps forward or a very rich benefactor steps in.


It could always be relocated to the glorified car park that is Bruntingthorpe now? If they get any more vehicles clogging up the runway then we can say goodbye to Cold War Jets days! Cars will always come first as they earn money - perhaps VTTS were right after all?
106500

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby MiG_Eater on Wed 23 May 2018, 11:15 am

Say what you like about Bruntingthorpe, but the Waltons have done so much for the aircraft there and I genuinely believe that they will continue helping the aircraft operators there.

Sure enough, profits come first - but compare what the Bruntingthorpe guys have done for classic aircraft in comparison to Doncaster Airport... there is simply no comparison!
MiG_Eater

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby pbeardmore on Wed 23 May 2018, 12:01 pm

Xm657 wrote:pbeardmore, I seem to remember that we all remarked at the time what a coincidence the Vulcan was valued as £750K which was the exact same amount the HLF has a charge over if for. So they were valuing it as the amount that they owed the HLF, or in other words, the market value is £0 but you have to pay the HLF £750K to fully own your own Vulcan. I believe the charge reduces over the years, so I guess 558 will eventually be worth either scrap value or whatever someone wants to pay for a running Vulcan. Remember the Blackpool Vulcan sold on eBay. Some pub landlord bought it before realising the cost of dismantling and movement by road made it worthless.

So unless someone wants to buy 558 to occasionally run its engines at Doncaster airport and look at it parked next to a sewage works, I think the market for it is pretty small.


Accountancy firms have a legal obligation to check the basic figures (not too much detail) but when THE outstanding figure/asset within the figures is the airframe itself , the basic question " how did you get that figure and what steps have you taken to ensure it's accurate?" surely has to be asked.

You cant just pick a figure out of thin air. This is the most basic function of the trustees: to ensure the figures are correct and then the accountants check this again. Is there anyone out there connected to the charity who can explain the official valuation?
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Xm657 on Wed 23 May 2018, 2:25 pm

106500 wrote:It could always be relocated to the glorified car park that is Bruntingthorpe now? If they get any more vehicles clogging up the runway then we can say goodbye to Cold War Jets days! Cars will always come first as they earn money - perhaps VTTS were right after all?


Is that really meant as a serious comment? So you think that David Walton should not be allowed to make a living from his facility and use it 100% of the time to display Cold War jets ? Come on, for the last 25 years he's bought the jets, and given a home to others. The jets have lived there rent free, quite often given free fuel, and he's allowed the public to visit all year round with at least two Open Days a year and other smaller events. Oh and he gave up all revenue from the main hangar for 10 years to have 558 restored - and gave 558 and all the spares to the VTTST. Every time there has been an open day the cars are moved so the runway is available, that's how its always worked since the jets arrived in the early 90s.

Remind me what's so great about Doncaster exactly?! Turning your comment round, I'm sure Doncaster Airport value profit over Vulcan bombers: as has been seen by her eviction from hangar 3 and hangar 1, not being allowed anywhere near the runway and fans not even being allowed to see the last flight in case they clogged up the roads around airport.

Anyway I'm off to Bruntingthorpe on Sunday to see a Victor, VC10, Nimrod, Comet, Lightnings, Bucaneers etc fast taxing, enjoy your £100 a time engine runs of one Vulcan at Doncaster!
Xm657

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby MicrolightDriver on Wed 23 May 2018, 4:26 pm

Interesting little snippet from a VTTS communication today:-

....major news on Vulcan XH558’s new hangar home expected soon....
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Xm657 on Wed 23 May 2018, 6:33 pm

Indeed. Although it was announced as a teaser to get people to resubscribe to the mailing list post GDPR regulations. I clicked Yes to opt back in but got a Server Error so I guess I won't be getting any more emails from them. I would imagine the mailing list will reduce dramatically either due to people not clicking to resubscribe or click but the server crashing.
Xm657

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby vulcan558 on Wed 23 May 2018, 6:33 pm

MicrolightDriver wrote:Interesting little snippet from a VTTS communication today:-

....major news on Vulcan XH558’s new hangar home expected soon....

Is that it after 6 months, guess we will have to wait another 6 months for the reply to that update.
vulcan558

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby MicrolightDriver on Wed 23 May 2018, 7:13 pm

vulcan558 wrote:
MicrolightDriver wrote:Interesting little snippet from a VTTS communication today:-

....major news on Vulcan XH558’s new hangar home expected soon....

Is that it after 6 months, guess we will have to wait another 6 months for the reply to that update.


What?
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Xm657 on Wed 23 May 2018, 7:51 pm

Let hope there is news soon. Think it about it practically, there really needs to be news soon. I can't see how the VTTST could continue in its present form if the hangar build doesn't go ahead, so probably true to say make or break this year. GDPR teaser or not though, seems unlikely they would say that if there was nothing in the pipeline so maybe a developer is lined up. They are like a cat with 99 lives perhaps!
Xm657

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Marathon Milkshake on Thu 24 May 2018, 12:38 am

Xm657 wrote:558 may be in immaculate condition but I think the same is true, the market value is a negative number since nobody in their right mind is going to buy her, if anything to become the custodian of 558 you'd almost want the VTTST to pay you since it would be a money pit the moment you took ownership


Immaculate is a strong word, the longer it sits outside the sooner its going to make a triangle of rust. As for a money pit, sure now the gold plated BMWs have gone, the accountants have retired to Jersey, the big spenders have left the party, theres nothing left, nothing at all. It is very pathetic.

As for ownership, in a few months or years I will buy it, I will then cut off the cockpit section, sell that for a huge over inflated amount and scrap the rest.

It is amazing how much people will pay for a cockpit section but not the whole aircraft.
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