Where has XH558 thread gone?

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Xm657 on Wed 13 Dec 2017, 7:10 pm

IgnatiusJReilly wrote:
sinbad wrote:So how does the hlf agreement fit into all this then....... :whistle:

I'm not sure anyone is particularly bothered... What can the HLF do? the money has been spent, VTTS will be able to demonstrate that the hangar is a work in progress. In extremis, the HLF could make a claim on the airframe, but then what would they do with it?
I'm not sure they would want to advertise the fact that this has gone belly up or that they have no practical means of enforcing the terms of the grant.


Indeed, its difficult to see how the HLF's charge on the airframe of (at the last time we heard) £450K is actually worth anything. Unless they sold her for scrap metal immediately, they would wrack up more in parking fees than she is worth in scrap in no time. The bigger issue is if this grant is defaulted on, the HLF would be much less likely to agree to fund similar aircraft preservation schemes in the future - even non flying ones.

To be fair to the VttTS they could have just ignored the HLF and dropped 558 anywhere they fancied (Bruntingthorpe perhaps!!), and not even tried to fulfil the 80 year educational commitment, but they didnt want to spoil their own changes of applying for a grant for the Canberra or other people's aviation based HLF applications.

Sadly I suspect we'll end up with the worst of all worlds. VttTS insolvent/gone so HLF commitments unfulfilled, and 558 stuck outside at an unsuitable location for public access or even under threat of destruction, with all the money wasted trying to chase unrealistic dreams.
Xm657

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Brevet Cable on Fri 15 Dec 2017, 4:46 pm

From today's newsletter :

We have been led to expect the determination on our New Heritage Hangar planning application before the end of the year, so just as soon as we have news on the decision, we will advise you in the first available newsletter and across our social media channels of Facebook and Twitter.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby MicrolightDriver on Fri 15 Dec 2017, 6:45 pm

Hopefully some good news on the planning in the near future then.

A reassuring note regarding the care and attention being provided to the airframes too:-

Taff and the volunteer team were able to complete scheduled maintenance tasks on XH558 and checked the coverings on Canberra WK163. All was reported to be well; one more weekend check will be made later next week ahead of the Christmas break, with one local volunteer tasked with checking every couple of days to ensure everything is well. We would also like to acknowledge the support of various airport personnel who are making regular checks on the aircraft during their 24 hour operational shifts.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Xm657 on Fri 15 Dec 2017, 7:30 pm

It's certainly reassuring that 558 is getting attention from Taff. But there's that word again "checks". I wonder if the engines have turned or any system actually been started up since the last engine run in October? I'm no expert in aircraft preservation but most machines left outside tend to corrode and cease up if not used.

It would be interesting to know if Taff and the volunteers are able to do everything reasonably possible to look after her outdoors or are restricted to doing "checks" - perhaps because of Health and Safety, equipment logistics or cost.
Xm657

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Alanko on Fri 15 Dec 2017, 8:49 pm

I saw this heartwarming image on Facebook of the Swift in the care of VTTS:

Image

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Alanko

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby aviodromefriend on Fri 15 Dec 2017, 8:50 pm

Xm657 wrote:But there's that word again "checks".
About the Vulcan it says
scheduled maintenance tasks
To me that says they could do (and have done) all what was needed. I think you should just read what is written. your "checks" were about the covers of the Canberra. I think it means that they looked if they were all still in place, not blown away by some windgusts.
A weather forecast is a forecast and just that

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Xm657 on Fri 15 Dec 2017, 9:19 pm

I did miss that crucial word "tasks", I stand corrected.

Hopefully these tasks do include dry cycling or running the engines which needs to be done regularly as they are not inhibited. There was a caption in the photo: "The air brake running channels are greased. Lubrication to the bomb-bay door system." which is obviously more than a check, presumably they must have had ground power on to extend the airbrakes. Perhaps someone who looks after one of the other Vulcans or cold war jets could clarify the sort of things they might be doing or should do if they can, just out of interest.
Xm657

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Marka1967 on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 9:54 am

Xm657 wrote:I did miss that crucial word "tasks", I stand corrected.

Hopefully these tasks do include dry cycling or running the engines which needs to be done regularly as they are not inhibited. There was a caption in the photo: "The air brake running channels are greased. Lubrication to the bomb-bay door system." which is obviously more than a check, presumably they must have had ground power on to extend the airbrakes. Perhaps someone who looks after one of the other Vulcans or cold war jets could clarify the sort of things they might be doing or should do if they can, just out of interest.

Indeed 657 ground power or the AAPP can be used to power the electrical systems on the Vulcan. As for running or turning engines over we used to run 655 only 4 or 5 times a year and her engines were not inhibited and have found to be in very good condition during recent removal and inspections. The air brake running channels do get a lot of rain water down them so greasing them keeps them running smooth and stops corrosion. Again when on 655 we used to try and apply electrical power once a week especially during the winter months if we could to keep things ticking over. The bomb doors can be exercised using the EHPP which will also charge the brakes so again no need to run engines. Vulcans are tough old birds and seem to shrug of the elements with a little help from a good maintenance team.
Marka1967

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby HeyfordDave111 on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 11:36 am

Alanko wrote:I saw this heartwarming image on Facebook of the Swift in the care of VTTS:

Image

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:


A serious question for those that might know, but does the swift have anything to prevent water ingress outside like that? I ask because the Vulcan and Canberra have tarps over the canopy’s but the swift doesn’t, and indeed the old trick of taping the canopy to fuselage join has, by the look of it, not been done.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 11:57 am

Come on RAFM, do something and get that Swift trucked down to Cosford. All that work put into a restoration, then the mistake of putting it in the care of that bunch only to see it dumped outside.

In many ways the treatment of the Swift, an aeroplane loaned to their care, is worse than that of the Vulcan and Canberra. It's one thing to abandon your own machines to the weather, but quite another to let somebody else's rot and fester.

The time cannot be far off when those in charge are brought to book.

Still, I hope you all got your newsletters offering you all manner of tat to buy this week, don't you know there are staff to pay?
Dan O'Hagan

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby sooty655 on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 9:34 am

Marka1967 wrote:
Xm657 wrote:I did miss that crucial word "tasks", I stand corrected.

Hopefully these tasks do include dry cycling or running the engines which needs to be done regularly as they are not inhibited. There was a caption in the photo: "The air brake running channels are greased. Lubrication to the bomb-bay door system." which is obviously more than a check, presumably they must have had ground power on to extend the airbrakes. Perhaps someone who looks after one of the other Vulcans or cold war jets could clarify the sort of things they might be doing or should do if they can, just out of interest.

Indeed 657 ground power or the AAPP can be used to power the electrical systems on the Vulcan. As for running or turning engines over we used to run 655 only 4 or 5 times a year and her engines were not inhibited and have found to be in very good condition during recent removal and inspections. The air brake running channels do get a lot of rain water down them so greasing them keeps them running smooth and stops corrosion. Again when on 655 we used to try and apply electrical power once a week especially during the winter months if we could to keep things ticking over. The bomb doors can be exercised using the EHPP which will also charge the brakes so again no need to run engines. Vulcans are tough old birds and seem to shrug of the elements with a little help from a good maintenance team.

XM655 also benefits from a permanent domestic electrical supply, and has dehumidifiers and anti-frost heaters running 24/7 in the cockpit and the power bay. This goes a long way towards ensuring the electrics don't suffer from the damp conditions. As Marka1967 says, the Olympus engines are robust beasties, and don't need a lot of pampering (especially not with Silica Gel dessicant :smile: ). Unless they are able to put ground power on to the aircraft, my biggest concerns would be damp in the electrics and the control surfaces. Regular exercise is needed to keep the pfcu motors dry and the pivots moving freely. On XM655 they are exercised at least every two weeks.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Xm657 on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 10:01 am

Thanks for the info about 655's maintenance schedule. I do know that the VRT kept a mains dehumidifier running in the cockpit 24/7 when she was outdoors. I don't know if 558 has any main electricity so they might not be able to do this. The 28 day anti-det running of the engines they used to do must have been when they were airworthy, good to know they can be left longer. In fact I was reading about XL319 in Sunderland and apparently after 30+ years of never being touched, the engines were found to still turn freely.
Xm657

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Xm657 on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 10:16 am

Post from the VttST forum from Sad Sam the ex engineer. Hope he doesn't mind me quote him but this sentence caught my attention regarding the new hangar:-

"I understand they have no interest whatsoever from any backers".

Sam is clearly well connected and this doesn't sound like idle speculation, it doesn't sound like the search for a developer has progressed at all. I wonder if they might consider a Plan B, perhaps an outdoor visitor centre on the land earmarked for the hangar. At least public access would be easier if they could get somewhere to park her that wasn't airside.
Xm657

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby IgnatiusJReilly on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 1:28 pm

Xm657 wrote:Post from the VttST forum from Sad Sam the ex engineer. Hope he doesn't mind me quote him but this sentence caught my attention regarding the new hangar:-
"I understand they have no interest whatsoever from any backers".
Sam is clearly well connected and this doesn't sound like idle speculation, it doesn't sound like the search for a developer has progressed at all. I wonder if they might consider a Plan B, perhaps an outdoor visitor centre on the land earmarked for the hangar. At least public access would be easier if they could get somewhere to park her that wasn't airside.


I am fully expecting 'plan B' to feature a very large bucket, a begging leaflet through the post and a share scheme.... and I would not at all be surprised to see it launched pretty soon after planning permission is granted. :cuppa:
Will be interesting to see if a detailed breakdown of the costs are released and if so, how much is being budgeted for 'consultancy'....
Eccentric, idealistic, and creative, sometimes to the point of delusion..
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 1:52 pm

Xm657 wrote:Post from the VttST forum from Sad Sam the ex engineer. Hope he doesn't mind me quote him but this sentence caught my attention regarding the new hangar:-

"I understand they have no interest whatsoever from any backers".

Sam is clearly well connected and this doesn't sound like idle speculation, it doesn't sound like the search for a developer has progressed at all. I wonder if they might consider a Plan B, perhaps an outdoor visitor centre on the land earmarked for the hangar. At least public access would be easier if they could get somewhere to park her that wasn't airside.


Whoa! I've lost track (interest) in the small print of this tawdry saga now, but wasn't the claim from Dr Bob that there was a contractor/partner on board ready to build some sort of interim structure while Castle Bullsh*t was being funded/built? Did all of this fall though? Was it ever publicly announced?
Dan O'Hagan

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Brevet Cable on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 4:02 am

Alanko wrote:I saw this heartwarming image on Facebook of the Swift in the care of VTTS:
(snip)
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:


And for XH558 & the Canberra, see the photos posted on the VTTS forum ( http://www.vulcantothesky.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=4e1eqocia5dr7bu4s9ggu8qrb1&topic=7820.msg82055#new ) on Saturday ( post #266 )
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 8:36 am

Brevet Cable wrote:
Alanko wrote:I saw this heartwarming image on Facebook of the Swift in the care of VTTS:
(snip)
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:


And for XH558 & the Canberra, see the photos posted on the VTTS forum ( http://www.vulcantothesky.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=4e1eqocia5dr7bu4s9ggu8qrb1&topic=7820.msg82055#new ) on Saturday ( post #266 )


Is it the lighting or has the weather started to take its toll on the paint on the fin?

Apathy will finish off 558. There must still be a hard core continuing to buy trinkets and donate money to pay the remaining hangers-on, so if these people care and are aware of the situation, where's the anger?

If this was a football club with clueless owners and a manager with abysmal tactical nous, the fans would be on the streets demanding change. With 558, aside from a few online dissenters it seems there is no pressure on the VTTS cabal, nor will for change from the sheep who continue to throw money at them.
Dan O'Hagan

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby HeyfordDave111 on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 9:13 am

Hi Dan,

Yup, I thought the same to be honest, and it’s not an impressive sight, that’s for sure.

Even less impressive in my view is that the aircraft seems to be parked in the middle of a junk yard, similar to the Victor dump at Marham way back in the day. A great visual advertisement to their ability to look after ‘the people’s aircraft’.

Oh, and a last question to those that know, but it looks a bit like the rudder is allowed to ‘weather cock’ in the wind. Is that something that should be happening or has it been locked ‘hard over’ and if so why not central to the airframe?
Last edited by HeyfordDave111 on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Xm657 on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 10:28 am

Dan O'Hagan wrote:If this was a football club with clueless owners and a manager with abysmal tactical nous, the fans would be on the streets demanding change. With 558, aside from a few online dissenters it seems there is no pressure on the VTTS cabal, nor will for change from the sheep who continue to throw money at them.


The sad thing is that it is the very people who still give them money, who no doubt think they are helping to preserve her, are probably signing her death warrant. The only way to force the VttST to change is to choke off their money supply, they clearly wont listen to reason or have any common sense. So the misguided, but generous souls continue to seal 558's fate. Of course, as Microlightdriver rightly points out, better the devil you know: there is no guarantee that things will be any better for 558 after the VttST has folded. We can only hope that something akin to Wellesbourne and Southend eventually emerges from the stupid and disastrous decision to land her for the last time at Doncaster in 2015.
Xm657

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby vulcan558 on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 10:49 am

The rudder and ailerons look in the wrong position and as said above, do not looked locked.
Still say that if she was landed where the majority wanted. That being Brunti,
She would be in a nice warm new hangar now.
vulcan558

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby The Baron on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 10:59 am

Having seen the pictures I wasn't prepared for what a sorry sight the airframes look. Restoration (even to flight) has been achieved with worse starting points but that's been with dedicated groups methodically plodding along. VTTS now only seem interested in creaming off what they can before the seemingly inevitable now happens.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby speedbird2639 on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 11:25 am

Is it just a trick of the foreshortening by the use of a long lens or do they appear to have some sort of scissor lift/ platform under the tail boom presumably in an attempt to prevent the aircraft tipping up on its tail in the event of heavy snowfall or strong winds?

If it is then I doubt a lightweight platform designed to support a couple of hundred kilos while someone is working at height is going to be sufficiently strong to prevent 40 tonnes of aircraft sitting on it tail. Surely a robust strut could be fabricated which is attached to the tail boom area and anchored to the ground or at the very least attach some suitable heavy blocks in the nose wheel area.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby ianf on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 11:27 am

Am I looking at the same pictures? The air frame does not look in bad shape at all. As to what Vulcan 558 said. Sorry If she was at Brunty now she would look exactly like this, but with more cars round it. There are no available hangars at Brunty. What I don't see is access to electricity. Like Sooty said about 655. We on Lindy have a dehumidifier on 24/7 and heaters in cockpit etc. We run ground power at least once a week and anti-det every 28 days. You don't have to run full engines to do this. you can wet or dry spin the engines to cycle them. All control surfaces etc are exercised at the same time. This and housekeeping on a weekly basis will keep a live jet quite happily outside. ( although it impacts on us poor souls working on them at this time of year! ). We have had a good year ran the engines 8 times and taxied twice. This on a shoe string budget. It costs me money to travel each week and I do not get paid, which goes for us all. The arguments about her location have been done to death, so I won't repeat them, Obviously I wanted Elvington, but that is in the past. To survive now 558 has to change course. Vtss is not a sustainable entity. If they care about the air frame they have to go voluntary and set their stall out accordingly. Fund raise by all means, the begging bowl argument has harmed all who try to fund raise for their projects. but in its present form the aircraft will be the loser.

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby MicrolightDriver on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 11:58 am

speedbird2639 wrote:Is it just a trick of the foreshortening by the use of a long lens or do they appear to have some sort of scissor lift/ platform under the tail boom presumably in an attempt to prevent the aircraft tipping up on its tail in the event of heavy snowfall or strong winds?

If it is then I doubt a lightweight platform designed to support a couple of hundred kilos while someone is working at height is going to be sufficiently strong to prevent 40 tonnes of aircraft sitting on it tail. Surely a robust strut could be fabricated which is attached to the tail boom area and anchored to the ground or at the very least attach some suitable heavy blocks in the nose wheel area.


There are support jacks installed on the underside the aircraft to prevent any such movement. Port side one is the more visible of the two on the pictures
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Jakspeed on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 12:17 pm

speedbird2639 wrote:Is it just a trick of the foreshortening by the use of a long lens or do they appear to have some sort of scissor lift/ platform under the tail boom presumably in an attempt to prevent the aircraft tipping up on its tail in the event of heavy snowfall or strong winds?.


No long lens trickery here, these were taken through the fence on my iPhone 6!!! :wave:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Edited to add -
Image
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