APRES

Re: APRES

Postby The Baron on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 8:59 pm

This can't be for real...
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The Baron

Re: APRES

Postby jalfrezi on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 9:04 pm

Ken Shabby wrote:
jalfrezi wrote:Please try and stay on topic people....


Ooh, you misery!


Unfortunately yes, in this case! :wave:

By all means feel free to create a new thread with plans for your fictitious new aviation preservation society, but try and keep this thread about APRES please. :up:
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jalfrezi
UKAR Staff

Re: APRES

Postby Ragdollyanna on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 9:48 pm

I'm absolutley honoured to be given a copy of an ex RAF veterans memoirs earlier today.

To me that speaks volumes.

They will be respected and will be kept private. As he requested.

This just shows just how important aviation heritage is.

In the hands of the right people!
Ragdollyanna

Re: APRES

Postby robterry99 on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 10:02 pm

Hello Caz aka ragdollyanna, glad you have (finally!) engaged in this forum.

If you read back though the last few pages there are plenty of questions about how APRES will operate, and some concerns that it might actually divert money away from existing projects and groups.

Are you going to answer questions and concerns here, in public?
robterry99

Re: APRES

Postby Ragdollyanna on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 10:09 pm

Of Course!

Here is my response!

To the people who have recently decided to create negativity towards our group and our goals, on certain aviation forums over social media, we are currently working on our Charity Application Response.



No further comments from myself.

Merry Christmas!

Carolyn
Chair of APRES
Ragdollyanna

Re: APRES

Postby Ewart on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 10:29 pm

Are you going to answer questions and concerns here



Ragdollyanna wrote:Of Course!

Here is my response!

To the people who have recently decided to create negativity towards our group and our goals, on certain aviation forums over social media, we are currently working on our Charity Application Response.



So no then. Not of course, you may as well have said no.

But whilst we are on it, can you fund my idea to restore a F-14 Tomcat? Or my Tomcat collection of items? How do I apply for more funding?

But I'll keep it private, as it is now in the hands of the right person….
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Ewart

Re: APRES

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 11:08 pm

Ragdollyanna wrote:Of Course!

Here is my response!

To the people who have recently decided to create negativity towards our group and our goals, on certain aviation forums over social media, we are currently working on our Charity Application Response.



No further comments from myself.

Merry Christmas!

Carolyn
Chair of APRES


Wow.

With engagement like this, APRES will in no way remain a laughing stock viewed with the utmost suspicion.

Grand start, just fabulous. Where do I send my £52?
Dan O'Hagan

Re: APRES

Postby ColeTheDemolisher on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 12:13 am

It seems like 3 different people are trying to be a spokesperson.. even after advice...to put it nicely "Go away, Think things through and sort yourselves out"...
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Re: APRES

Postby The Baron on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 6:23 am

Does anyone else have the Monty Python theme in their head whilst reading this thread?

So, who exactly is the spokesperson?
When was charitable status applied for?
Are APRES actually involved with any airframes?
Who are the people involved and what are their backgrounds?
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Re: APRES

Postby HeyfordDave111 on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 8:44 am

Why are people claiming to be from this group and representing them?

Ok we know that answer, but it saddens me that these 16 year old keyboard warriors have either no real intelligence or are going out of their way to have a laugh at our expense.

Maybe, just maybe, for the good of UKAR, this thread should be locked for the good of its members until this disparate band of individuals, who all seem to think their in charge at ‘APRES’ can contact a mod, with bona fides etc, proving they are a legitimate group with trust status.

I fear, if left alone, they may cause more damage to other groups and societies who might get tarred with the same brush, if, as it seems to be heading that way, APRES, implodes in its own froth and stupidity while claiming to want to do good for aviation preservation.
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HeyfordDave111

Re: APRES

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 9:08 am

HeyfordDave111 wrote:Why are people claiming to be from this group and representing them?

Ok we know that answer, but it saddens me that these 16 year old keyboard warriors have either no real intelligence or are going out of their way to have a laugh at our expense.

Maybe, just maybe, for the good of UKAR, this thread should be locked for the good of its members until this disparate band of individuals, who all seem to think their in charge at ‘APRES’ can contact a mod, with bona fides etc, proving they are a legitimate group with trust status.

I fear, if left alone, they may cause more damage to other groups and societies who might get tarred with the same brush, if, as it seems to be heading that way, APRES, implodes in its own froth and stupidity while claiming to want to do good for aviation preservation.


Sadly, this lot appear to be fully-grown adults rather than 16 year old keyboard warriors. One of them, apparently, was serious about returning a Concorde to flight. This should tell us all we need to know about this operation.

The way is see APRES is a gaggle of dimwits with no clear aims, no clear experience and no clear thinking, other than about money, money, money. I doubt very much they'll prove me wrong.
Dan O'Hagan

Re: APRES

Postby Ken Shabby on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 9:34 am

Whilst I apologise for the irreverance of my posts yesterday, they were making a serious point about how these type of bodies seem to appear out of nowhere offering only the barest of information to their supposed audience until they deem the time is right.

The issues I raised about how a charitable 'central' fund would be managed and how money from it would be granted, and its use safeguarded, are valid ones and hopefully something APRES has already addressed. A further question is, of course, who will be responsible for deciding who gets money from the fund and how much. What expertise will they have and who will be responsible for appointing them?

It would also be interesting to know what consultation APRES has done within the aviation preservation sector to determine if there is a need for such a fund and how preservation groups would want it to work.

All perfectly valid questions I think.

Ken
Ken

I came here for a shoot-out right, a proper shoot-out, with some proper men.
Ken Shabby

Re: APRES

Postby robterry99 on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 9:38 am

HeyfordDave111 wrote:Why are people claiming to be from this group and representing them? [snip] 16 year old keyboard warriors have either no real intelligence


I wonder, are you mixing up APRES with UKHAT (and perhaps GUSMAWGIASLFTYT)? Here's your handy "cut out and keep" guide...

  • UKHAT are a 15-year-old keyboard warrior (Matthew) and a garden-handyman-cum-egg-seller (Duncan) who had grand dreams to restore and fly vintage jets, but seem to have settled on sprucing up an old Herald at Gatwick. They are neither a trust, nor a charity, despite their confusing name.
  • APRES are a bunch of 40+ year-old dreamers, led by Carolyn "Caz" McCall and ably assisted by Mike Bowden. Mike popped up on UKAR under the name "bucksmjb", opened various threads of complaint, claimed to be nothing to do with APRES, before eventually admitting that he is involved and will probably be the groups spokesperson. Caz then waded in yesterday (as "Ragdollyanna"), posted some drivel about private memoirs and then flatly refused to answer any questions. She did wish us all a Merry Christmas though, so that's nice.

    They aren't a trust, nor a charity, despite what their website says (http://www.apres.org.uk/join-us/).
  • GUSMAWGIASLFTYT are probably the best of a bad bunch. Entirely fictious, completely made-up yesterday, but the most convincing thus far. :grin:
It's all a very sad state of affairs. Whilst I still have concerns about UKHAT, they do at least seem to be getting their hands dirty with a project. APRES on the other hand still seem to consider themselves the solution to all of our problems, and if everyone just gives them all their money they'll make sure everything gets sorted.

(Slightly off-topic question - is there an easy way to export this entire thread, so I can send it to the Charity Commission? I'd hope it might assist them when they come to decide whether APRES is worthy of charitable status.)
robterry99

Re: APRES

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 9:48 am

robterry99 wrote:
HeyfordDave111 wrote:Why are people claiming to be from this group and representing them? [snip] 16 year old keyboard warriors have either no real intelligence


I wonder, are you mixing up APRES with UKHAT (and perhaps GUSMAWGIASLFTYT)? Here's your handy "cut out and keep" guide...

  • UKHAT are a 15-year-old keyboard warrior (Matthew) and a garden-handyman-cum-egg-seller (Duncan) who had grand dreams to restore and fly vintage jets, but seem to have settled on sprucing up an old Herald at Gatwick. They are neither a trust, nor a charity, despite their confusing name.
  • APRES are a bunch of 40+ year-old dreamers, led by Carolyn "Caz" McCall and ably assisted by Mike Bowden. Mike popped up on UKAR under the name "bucksmjb", opened various threads of complaint, claimed to be nothing to do with APRES, before eventually admitting that he is involved and will probably be the groups spokesperson. Caz then waded in yesterday (as "Ragdollyanna"), posted some drivel about private memoirs and then flatly refused to answer any questions. She did wish us all a Merry Christmas though, so that's nice.

    They aren't a trust, nor a charity, despite what their website says (http://www.apres.org.uk/join-us/).
  • GUSMAWGIASLFTYT are probably the best of a bad bunch. Entirely fictious, completely made-up yesterday, but the most convincing thus far. :grin:
It's all a very sad state of affairs. Whilst I still have concerns about UKHAT, they do at least seem to be getting their hands dirty with a project. APRES on the other hand still seem to consider themselves the solution to all of our problems, and if everyone just gives them all their money they'll make sure everything gets sorted.

(Slightly off-topic question - is there an easy way to export this entire thread, so I can send it to the Charity Commission? I'd hope it might assist them when they come to decide whether APRES is worthy of charitable status.)



You forgot to add the bit about yourself quite clearly having long-standing personal issues with those involved in APRES. Just to be clear.
Dan O'Hagan

Re: APRES

Postby robterry99 on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 10:05 am

Dan O'Hagan wrote:You forgot to add the bit about yourself quite clearly having long-standing personal issues with those involved in APRES. Just to be clear.


Sorry, I thought that was obvious?

I've had long standing issues with APRES.

To be clear, I've never met any of the individuals involved. But I've seen their Facebook group stumble along from dreams of Concorde RTFs to some crazy idea of being the National Trust for Aviation. All of which seems to involve giving them money.

I've not been impressed, and have made it pretty clear that's my stance from my very first posts.

The fact this thread is now 4 pages and growing means I've shone enough of a spotlight on them, so I'll crawl back under my rock and let you all continue to keep an eye on their madness.

:cuppa:
robterry99

Re: APRES

Postby CJS on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 1:15 pm

Based on some of the Facebook postings, ragdollyanna becoming an official spokesperson for APRES is probably the quickest way to kill it off once and for all.

I actually wonder if the, what is it, 2, 3? people on here claiming to represent them have actually even met in real life (you know, the kind not on a screen).

Even for an amateur set up, this is getting pretty dire.

Take UKHAT for comparison: yes, flawed in some (to others, many. To some, every) respect. But, they at least are engaging with those on here in a professional, albeit somewhat sporadic, way. They at least have just the one person speaking on their behalf, do try to address the questions raised.

Caz, if you are the chairperson of your group, for goodness' sake use that position to seek out the person within the group best suited to being the official voice and don't just assume that person is you.

Frankly APRES, you're making the 15 year old and the gardener look like consummate professionals.

I think you'd be surprised how much UKAR is in fact a accurate barometer of how the enthusiasts' community will be supporting you. Based on this thread, I'd want to disappear for a while and get quite a bit sorted before I returned to try again.
"Forewarned is forearmed"
How do you know I didn't?
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Re: APRES

Postby Tommy on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 1:15 pm

*sigh*

I though for just a second things had turned around in this thread, but nope. :cuppa:
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Re: APRES

Postby HeyfordDave111 on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 1:38 pm

Ken Shabby wrote:Whilst I apologise for the irreverance of my posts yesterday, they were making a serious point about how these type of bodies seem to appear out of nowhere offering only the barest of information to their supposed audience until they deem the time is right.

The issues I raised about how a charitable 'central' fund would be managed and how money from it would be granted, and its use safeguarded, are valid ones and hopefully something APRES has already addressed. A further question is, of course, who will be responsible for deciding who gets money from the fund and how much. What expertise will they have and who will be responsible for appointing them?

It would also be interesting to know what consultation APRES has done within the aviation preservation sector to determine if there is a need for such a fund and how preservation groups would want it to work.

All perfectly valid questions I think.

Ken


Yesterday a poster by the name of Ken Shabby wrote........

A bit harsh Dan. I personally am leading the set- up of the Give Us Some Money And We'll Get It All Sorted Later For You Trust. We have emailed a number of high-profile people in the aviation preservation sector and will enter into negotiations with them when they reply to us. A major milestone in our project was reached yesterday when we opened a bank account.

I am the official spokesperson for our group. Please don't believe anything you hear from anyone else. They are imposters and are trying to undo the work we're doing.

——_——————-
So unless I’ve got this wrong, and your not APRES, why would you then say the following “It would also be interesting to know what consultation APRES has done within the aviation preservation sector to determine if there is a need for such a fund and how preservation groups would want it to work”, as surely being the spokesperson of the ‘group’ you would know?

Confused? You bet I am.
Got to love Russianhardware
HeyfordDave111

Re: APRES

Postby jalfrezi on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 1:53 pm

HeyfordDave111 wrote:
Ken Shabby wrote:Whilst I apologise for the irreverance of my posts yesterday, they were making a serious point about how these type of bodies seem to appear out of nowhere offering only the barest of information to their supposed audience until they deem the time is right.

The issues I raised about how a charitable 'central' fund would be managed and how money from it would be granted, and its use safeguarded, are valid ones and hopefully something APRES has already addressed. A further question is, of course, who will be responsible for deciding who gets money from the fund and how much. What expertise will they have and who will be responsible for appointing them?

It would also be interesting to know what consultation APRES has done within the aviation preservation sector to determine if there is a need for such a fund and how preservation groups would want it to work.

All perfectly valid questions I think.

Ken


Yesterday a poster by the name of Ken Shabby wrote........

A bit harsh Dan. I personally am leading the set- up of the Give Us Some Money And We'll Get It All Sorted Later For You Trust. We have emailed a number of high-profile people in the aviation preservation sector and will enter into negotiations with them when they reply to us. A major milestone in our project was reached yesterday when we opened a bank account.

I am the official spokesperson for our group. Please don't believe anything you hear from anyone else. They are imposters and are trying to undo the work we're doing.

——_——————-
So unless I’ve got this wrong, and your not APRES, why would you then say the following “It would also be interesting to know what consultation APRES has done within the aviation preservation sector to determine if there is a need for such a fund and how preservation groups would want it to work”, as surely being the spokesperson of the ‘group’ you would know?

Confused? You bet I am.


He's not APRES in any way, he was making a point that these days anyone can setup a group and ask for money.
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Re: APRES

Postby HeyfordDave111 on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 2:08 pm

Ok, apologies to Ken for being mistaken.
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HeyfordDave111

Re: APRES

Postby Ken Shabby on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 2:21 pm

jalfrezi wrote:
HeyfordDave111 wrote:
Ken Shabby wrote:Whilst I apologise for the irreverance of my posts yesterday, they were making a serious point about how these type of bodies seem to appear out of nowhere offering only the barest of information to their supposed audience until they deem the time is right.

The issues I raised about how a charitable 'central' fund would be managed and how money from it would be granted, and its use safeguarded, are valid ones and hopefully something APRES has already addressed. A further question is, of course, who will be responsible for deciding who gets money from the fund and how much. What expertise will they have and who will be responsible for appointing them?

It would also be interesting to know what consultation APRES has done within the aviation preservation sector to determine if there is a need for such a fund and how preservation groups would want it to work.

All perfectly valid questions I think.

Ken


Yesterday a poster by the name of Ken Shabby wrote........

A bit harsh Dan. I personally am leading the set- up of the Give Us Some Money And We'll Get It All Sorted Later For You Trust. We have emailed a number of high-profile people in the aviation preservation sector and will enter into negotiations with them when they reply to us. A major milestone in our project was reached yesterday when we opened a bank account.

I am the official spokesperson for our group. Please don't believe anything you hear from anyone else. They are imposters and are trying to undo the work we're doing.

——_——————-
So unless I’ve got this wrong, and your not APRES, why would you then say the following “It would also be interesting to know what consultation APRES has done within the aviation preservation sector to determine if there is a need for such a fund and how preservation groups would want it to work”, as surely being the spokesperson of the ‘group’ you would know?

Confused? You bet I am.


He's not APRES in any way, he was making a point that these days anyone can setup a group and ask for money.


Yes, quite correct and I apologise for any confusion my posts have caused. I'm not connected to APRES or UKHAT in any way other than being an aviation enthusiast and, presumably, someone each group would view as a potential member or donor. And to be 100% sure, the 'Give Us Some Money And We'll Get It All Sorted Later For You Trust' does not and will never exist, other than as an imaginary vehicle for me to make a point about how these type of groups seem to spring up from nowhere.

The points I made in my post earlier today (quoted above by HeyfordDave111 - and no apology needed HD111) are, though, very real. I would genuinely be very interested to hear from APRES about how its grant giving will work and what consultation it's carried out within the aviation preservation sector. Presumably it has done some? If so, with whom? And hopefully when answering it won't hide behind the 'commercially confidential' smokescreen UKHAT found so convenient when asked similar questions. APRES makes some very big claims on its website but to date I'm struggling to see anything of substance that backs them up.

Ken
Ken

I came here for a shoot-out right, a proper shoot-out, with some proper men.
Ken Shabby

Re: APRES

Postby Gonzo230 on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 7:14 am

I think the aviation heritage enthusiast/supporter community has to understand its own part in this.

I'm not referring specifically to APRES/UKHAT or any others, but there seems to be an assumption within our community that any new aviation group/aircraft support group/society/trust/charity etc etc should appear fully formed with notable trustees/experts/business plans already in place. When groups allow us to observe their early development and growing pains, it's very easy to sit on the sidelines and criticise.

However, do we not also, as a community, criticise those groups that are more private at this stage for not being open and transparent?

I think, if one actually analyses how any aviation heritage group starts, it's usually one or more 'enthusiastic amatuers' getting together. What has changed so that now we expect experts and experienced only to set these up?

Were Tim Prince and Paul Bowen experienced airshow organisers when they started forming ideas for IAT? Did they have a list of experts and a comprehensive business and funding plan when they started trying to drum up interest for an airshow? And look where that organisation is now and what it has provided over the years.

Have we created such a toxic environment?
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Re: APRES

Postby starbuck on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 8:47 am

I think that this thread (and the one on the recent hunter re-paint) showcases how social media works these days. It's a double edged sword, on the one hand it can be a great platform for getting a message out to people very quickly, however as soon as you do people who read it or re-read it through other platforms like UKAR then feel that they are automatically invested in it and have some entitlement to cast judgement despite not being part of the group / aircraft in question or contributing any time or money to it.

15 years ago a lot of these groups now being criticised would have been meeting once a month around a pub table until they either grew large enough to gain a public presence or they withered on the vine and disappeared without trace. Al Murray made a very similar point on 5live yesterday, in the pre-social media days if you wanted to be a fascist you would have had to have done your research, made the right connections and found out where they met.

I've done it myself - I've never donated to any restoration project apart from maybe buying something off a stall or chucking some change in a bucket at a show and yet I come on here (I don't use twitter or facebook) and read the goings on, sometimes chip in with the odd comment or two but if I had to write down my comments and find out the address of the group and go to the post box would I bother? No.

If any of these groups have an idea or vision you can agree with them support them, if they go up in smoke then criticise them till the sun goes down, you have the right. If you don't agree with them then just stay quiet. If they succeed then you won't have egg on your face and if they fail you can sit back with a warm smug glow around you. You just won't get to do the "I told you so" bit, which unfortunately seems to be quite important to a lot of people these days.
starbuck

Re: APRES

Postby Shyft87 on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 9:10 am

I have to ask, with APREs apparently wanting to set themselves up as a self styled 'central bank' for restorations;

Have they actually spoken to any restoration groups? -canvassed their feelings on this?
Not to mention who are they to decide which project gets funded and which does not?

I would argue that given their, apparent, intention -and not possessing an airframe to restore, that they're just going to add another layer of bureaucracy to charity donations, and with that potentially drawing a wage.

All for adding an unnecessary, arguably unwanted, process that till now nobody appears to have wanted or requested.


If they were actually restoring an airframe, that would be supportable and I could respect that.
As it stands... 'meh' go volunteer for an organisation if you want to help, instead all you're going to do is increase the amount of organisations that, as your website states,
are fighting for the same penny.
Shyft87

Re: APRES

Postby Berf on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 9:24 am

Gonzo230 wrote:Were Tim Prince and Paul Bowen experienced airshow organisers when they started forming ideas for IAT? Did they have a list of experts and a comprehensive business and funding plan when they started trying to drum up interest for an airshow? And look where that organisation is now and what it has provided over the years.



Maybe not but then again in 1971 there were not that many civil airshows and certainly not the regulations that need to be followed now. Also they were both highly skilled professionals in the aviation business.
Times change and if you want to succeed now you need to follow professional standards - even if you are not a 'professional' . Several of the'fund raising projects are 'professional' - one or two have made mistakes but have made changes and moved on learning as they go. One or two others do not look professional, do not acknowledge errors, and seem to want to make life as difficult as possible for themselves while alienating their potential core support. This forum can be fair and unfair, just and unjust polite and rude but it can be used for testing an idea and seeing what aviation enthusiasts think and what they are likely to support - use it in that way and your projects taken a step forward.
Berf

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