What I'd like for picture threads 2018.

What I'd like for picture threads 2018.

Postby tankbuster on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 12:15 pm

Another post re over processing has got me thinking about what I like and don't like about picture threads on this forum. I'd be interested to hear other views.

1. Most importantly, I like picture threads bring 'em on.
2. I think there is a maximum number of pictures that can be appreciated in a single thread. My preference would be a max of say 12. Threads that contain 50 pictures bore me and diminish my appreciation. If you are a large poster then your pictures aren't getting the appreciation that they deserve from me.
3. Following on from that, there is no great reason for posting 5 pictures of the same F16. Show us the best one.
4. Slightly more contentious, do people really want an identical shot of every F-15 landing at Lakenheath in a day. I say contentious because I appreciate that to some people subtle changes in scheme may be very interesting.
5. Great pictures are great, not so great pictures of great airframes are great.
6. HDR and other special processing is fine in a picture but not for an entire thread.
7. Plaster a watermark across the middle of the pictures if you want to ensure that I don't give your post a second glance or comment.
8. I would like to see more comments and constructive criticism on both the pictures and the contents of the pictures. Good/sensible comments in turn create good forum discussion.

These are personal opinions and I'm sure many will disagree.

Merry Christmas to all the photographers who have brightened my days in 2017.
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Re: What I'd like for picture threads 2018.

Postby jalfrezi on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 12:52 pm

Pretty much agree with everything you've listed - for point 8 though I think constructive criticism should only be given where it's been asked for, as there's potentially a danger of deterring photographers posting in future if there's a negative reaction to their post (though that can also be the case if no one comments at all).
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Re: What I'd like for picture threads 2018.

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 1:03 pm

Add to that....
Reduce the maximum allowable image/file size - does it really need to be 1600x ( which can be a pain waiting for them to load on some computers/tablets )

Have a separate photo section for over-processed/manipulated & HDR images ( or am I the only one who thinks most HDRs look ridiculous & over-processed/manipulated images look unrealistic ? )

The threads themselves - how about giving each airshow it's own sub-thread, so that all the RIAT images will be in one place, ditto Duxford, ditto Yeovilton, etc. ?

50 shots by different posters of the same RAFTART crossover from slightly different angles tends to be mind-numbingly boring irrespective of the image quality......try something different, take photos of the crowd watching/reacting to it or something.
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Re: What I'd like for picture threads 2018.

Postby Seamus on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 1:13 pm

Regarding point 2, I appreciate 50 can be too many, but, from a personal point of view at least, there are occasions-predominantly airshows or events- where it's almost impossible to reduce the number of images to a figure such as the 12 you mention without adequately covering an event or omitting some of the better images taken. RIAT for example, I had enough trouble condensing each of the six days into 15 images in my photo thread, I'd have no chance cramming all six days into 12 images!

For me, I'd say 25-30 images would be enough to cover a single day event sufficiently, giving a good feel for what was on show with a little extra focus on the highlights, perhaps reducing that to 15-20 per day for threads that cover multiple days at a show.
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Re: What I'd like for picture threads 2018.

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 1:29 pm

As your signature says, your images are hosted on flickr.
Why not post some ( the best dozen ) on here then direct anyone who's interested to your flickr page ?
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Re: What I'd like for picture threads 2018.

Postby tankbuster on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 1:34 pm

Seamus wrote:Regarding point 2, I appreciate 50 can be too many, but, from a personal point of view at least, there are occasions-predominantly airshows or events- where it's almost impossible to reduce the number of images to a figure such as the 12 you mention without adequately covering an event or omitting some of the better images taken. RIAT for example, I had enough trouble condensing each of the six days into 15 images in my photo thread, I'd have no chance cramming all six days into 12 images!

For me, I'd say 25-30 images would be enough to cover a single day event sufficiently, giving a good feel for what was on show with a little extra focus on the highlights, perhaps reducing that to 15-20 per day for threads that cover multiple days at a show.




I've no objection to 50 pictures for a RIAT type event but I think they would be better spit into separate threads, say, Arrivals, Departures, Static and Flying. And as Brevet cable says above look for what you do that is different. The same shot posted by many contributors is not needed unless yours has something which makes it stand out from the pack.
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Re: What I'd like for picture threads 2018.

Postby ArabJazzie on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 1:43 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:Have a separate photo section for over-processed/manipulated & HDR images ( or am I the only one who thinks most HDRs look ridiculous & over-processed/manipulated images look unrealistic ? )


I find it hard to comment on HDR images as its a total dark art to me, not that i have ever been a good photographer in the first place! But I'm with Brevet that there are too many that have been processed within an inch of their lives that they dont look anywhere near real. Done right and there are some absolute stunners to be had.

Brevet Cable wrote:50 shots by different posters of the same RAFTART crossover from slightly different angles tends to be mind-numbingly boring irrespective of the image quality......try something different, take photos of the crowd watching/reacting to it or something.


I suppose that is the reason i dont look at many Airshow threads unless they are from foreign shores. I usually skip the Reds photos, but after 2 or 3 different threads that also contain whatever aircraft in the same bit of sky doing the same thing, I'm usually off!
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Re: What I'd like for picture threads 2018.

Postby Seamus on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 1:43 pm

Brevet Cable wrote: direct anyone who's interested to your flickr page ?


I often do, but people rarely click the link!
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Re: What I'd like for picture threads 2018.

Postby Wrexham Mackem on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 1:46 pm

tankbuster wrote:
Seamus wrote:Regarding point 2, I appreciate 50 can be too many, but, from a personal point of view at least, there are occasions-predominantly airshows or events- where it's almost impossible to reduce the number of images to a figure such as the 12 you mention without adequately covering an event or omitting some of the better images taken. RIAT for example, I had enough trouble condensing each of the six days into 15 images in my photo thread, I'd have no chance cramming all six days into 12 images!

For me, I'd say 25-30 images would be enough to cover a single day event sufficiently, giving a good feel for what was on show with a little extra focus on the highlights, perhaps reducing that to 15-20 per day for threads that cover multiple days at a show.




I've no objection to 50 pictures for a RIAT type event but I think they would be better spit into separate threads, say, Arrivals, Departures, Static and Flying. And as Brevet cable says above look for what you do that is different. The same shot posted by many contributors is not needed unless yours has something which makes it stand out from the pack.


Anything over 12 bores you, but you'd split an event like RIAT into five separate threads of 12 each, and have to click in and out of each? That doesn't make sense to me, I'd much rather see all five days in one thread.

The number of pics posted has to be enough to cover the event, if that's what a poster is trying to do. Limit posters to a small number, and you'll see the same items from each. I enjoy seeing members' take on an event. If a long post is needed, so be it.

Reams and reams of poor pics is a different issue. As is nasty processing. But variety is the spice of life and it only takes a couple of seconds to work out whether you're going to enjoy a post or not.
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Re: What I'd like for picture threads 2018.

Postby jalfrezi on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 2:18 pm

There have been a lot of good points raised so far.

Large posts: I must admit I'm guilty of skimming through posts with a lot of images, as you invariably have to wait while the page finishes loading, and if you don't then the page starts jumping around as they begin to display. Fewer pictures may also improve the situation for people using mobile devices, as would displaying at a lower resolution (though I do happen to like the 1600px format). I don't think there is anyway that you could really sum up RIAT, MAKS, or any other large airshow in 12 pics though, but maybe not 50!

Separate section for heavily processed images: This is possible, however some posters may think that their over processed images are normal shots - where would someone like Hesja post, as his photos often straddle that line?

Sub-thread for different shows: This could work, particularly for RIAT and the other large shows, much like what we do for the actual airshow section.

I tend to be very choosy over what I post to the pictures forum, and generally won't post if someone has already covered the show/shoot, which is usually the case as I take so long getting round to actually processing them!

As for the poor pics comment, I'm not sure that is viable (or fair) - we all have to start somewhere, when is someone good enough to post pics on here?
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Re: What I'd like for picture threads 2018.

Postby Berf on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 2:52 pm

The more rules the less people will post. By all means have some guidelines but leave it to the poster to put in whatever effort they want to.
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Re: What I'd like for picture threads 2018.

Postby starbuck on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 3:04 pm

First off I am not a photographer so my comments are purely observational.

Secondly the original reason I got on this forum was because of the overall stunning quality of the photography that I am able to look at.

Right, heavy posts - I think most people do give some kind of warning in their thread title but perhaps this could be expanded to say 20+, 30+ etc so that those who don't like large posts or those that will need to wait for the pictures to appear know what they are in for?

Posts that contain photos that look exactly the same as others already posted are slightly frustrating sometimes, this tends to be for the larger shows when it tends to be the same aircraft photographed multiple times from the same angle. I get that there are a whole range of external considerations that can limit the quality of the photograph and where it has to be taken from but as an example I didn't go to RIAT this year but it was only when Tommy put up his large 2017 post yesterday that I think I saw the lovely looking Magister for the 1st time (apologies for anyone that did photograph it and include it in a thread, to be honest there were so many RIAT ones I probably missed it)

I love the golden oldies section, I love RIAT arrivals, I also like looking in general photgraphy, not everything in it is for me but I enjoy looking none the less.

In fact the only section that I hardly ever visit is the video. 5 minutes of watching a 777 land at Frankfurt or a Typhoon taking off at Warton don't do anything for me and if they did I have youtube for that.
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Re: What I'd like for picture threads 2018.

Postby CJS on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 3:11 pm

Lots of very interesting points but doesn't it all boil down to choice in the end, both of poster and the viewer?

My feeling is that sub folders, whilst potentially a good idea, will probably lead to fewer viewings in the long run. Personally, I like browsing the threads to find the interesting stuff. I might look at a couple of RIAT threads but that's the show I've been to and I took my eyes with me so I'm less likely to trawl through them.

As good as I'm sure a lot of them are, threads titled 'RIAT 2017, my take on it' or whatever are less likely to receive my mouse finger than one which gives me a bit more info - wissam's RIAT thread from this year for example.

Maybe some guidelines / tips on thread titling would be good?

I certainly think that any kind of minimum standard for quality would be unfair and nigh on impossible to moderate anyway.

With the occasional (and when it happens very obvious) exception, most feedback I've ever seen on here is either very useful or subjective anyway.
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Re: What I'd like for picture threads 2018.

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 3:23 pm

From what I can see, most of those who post in the various photo sections also tend to host their images on the likes of flickr & photobucket.
Maybe lowering the allowable resolution to something like 1024x ( 800x may be a bit too far ) would mean that people would be more likely to visit the posters' pages to view the images in all their glory ?

'Hesja' and others, such as 'Rzepka' ? I'd put them firmly in the 'over-processed' camp. Whilst a lot of time & work could have gone into producing each image - possibly longer than the actual airshow lasted - they're not my cup of tea ( and at one time I was one of those sad gits who'd spend hours in a dark-room messing around with black & white photos to get them 'right' :biggrin: )...it's the old argument of when does something cease being a photograph and instead become artwork.

Somewhere in amongst my RIAT photos from the past few years are ones of the French messing around with the toy lion they had, the Polish(?) aircrew building their beer-can wall & the hare being 'bombed' during the Apache role demo ..... I'd be more interested in seeing candids such as those than endless RAFAT shots.
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Re: What I'd like for picture threads 2018.

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 4:00 pm

The problem is that the times have changed. In the days before Twitter and Flickr, forums like UKAR were THE place to showcase your photographs, these days that's not the case, and the majority of the better photographers have left the forums for those social media outlets, where hashtags allow their work to be seen by a far wider audience, and even the subjects of their pictures by direct tagging (which is highly annoying, but that's another thread).

What we're left with, sadly, is a lot of the less skilled photographers who in some cases spam the board with pictures that shouldn't even make the editing stage, let alone posting online. This puts a lot of people off looking, and therefore commenting on the threads. Worse, is when these photographers are offered advice and constructive criticism, then lose their rag because no-one likes their pictures, which they think are perfect. Or when someone takes offence on their behalf "Well, 250 views and not a single comment" type stuff.

I'd limit photo threads to perhaps 20 images. If you can't tell the story of a show/visit in that many pictures, you need to learn to. I'd like to see posters discriminate more in what they post - ONLY your best images should make the public domain, and nothing else. I think 1600 pixels is a good size - at that resolution it really sorts the men from the boys.
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Re: What I'd like for picture threads 2018.

Postby FarnboroJohn on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 4:34 pm

The responses so far tend to demonstrate why Marmite is still in production despite the number of people who don't like it. :lol:

I think that people are ready to post on here when they think they are - but should be prepared to receive constructive criticism.... I don't post aircraft very often because I am doubtful of meeting the standard, but I can learn from someone's constructive comment on another's photo and hope to put more of my own up in due course when I'm happy with them.

Size-wise I prefer 1024 to 1600 from a viewing point of view but that's just me, no axe to grind: I agree 800 is too small.

I like some of the heavily processed photos, and don't like others so much, but it would be a shame not to see them and develop an opinion. Likewise the black-and-whites and the tight crops of parts of airframes.

Definitely like to see shots of aircrew/groundcrew and quirky stuff around aircraft/events.

As far as picture numbers is concerned, on a day when I have a lot going on I might skim, but on a wet Sunday stuck inside I might look at a lot. People will make up their own minds about what and how much to look at, so I don't see a need for specific limitation.

Other opinions are available.

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Re: What I'd like for picture threads 2018.

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 4:57 pm

Splitting airshow threads is against the rules. One thread per person, per airshow - a rule designed to prevent people from spamming the forum and drowning other threads.

We're not going back on the image sizes either. It's nearly 2018, 1024px or even 800px images aren't big enough for modern screens. Besides, 1600px is the maximum, not an obligation, so those that wish to post images at lower resolutions are perfectly able to.
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Re: What I'd like for picture threads 2018.

Postby tankbuster on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 5:07 pm

I should add to my original post that I was not suggesting the introduction of rules. I was trying to say what makes picture threads appealing to me, which some other people will agree with and some will disagree with, which is a good thing. If anybody wants to post 50 picture threads that's fine by me but If the poster wants me to look at their pictures, appreciate them, comment on them and discuss them, then they have a much greater chance of doing so if they limit the post to a 'reasonable' number of picture. Similarly if people post pictures that are exactly the same as 10 other previous posters they may expect my attention to wander. Some people share those views and other people won't but it would make sense to me that a poster who wants people to look at their threads will get the best response by appealing to a wide audience.
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Re: What I'd like for picture threads 2018.

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 7:25 pm

LN Strike Eagle wrote:Splitting airshow threads is against the rules. One thread per person, per airshow - a rule designed to prevent people from spamming the forum and drowning other threads.

Doesn't the splitting only apply to individual forum members, though?
My suggestion of having separate threads ( similar to what exists in the 'Airshows & Events' sections ) would be something which would be set up by the Mods/Admins.
If you take RIAT as the prime example, we have the initial thread ( the 'Arrivals' one ) started on 11 July, yet we still have people posting their RIAT pics some 4 or even 5 months later......I'd have thought that would make it difficult to keep track of whether or not someone's already started a thread, as there could be upwards of 300 others posted during that time?
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Re: What I'd like for picture threads 2018.

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 10:52 am

It's not really a rule that matters five months after the show, but more in the immediate aftermath when every man and his dog add "my take" to the photo forum. If they each had one for arrivals, show days and departures, it would soon get congested, which is what that rule is supposed to prevent. If someone adds a second thread in November, does it really matter? There's nothing else to nudge it from the top really, let alone drown it out completely.

As far as diluting the sections down, I think the time for that suggestion was about five years ago - the photo forums have never been so quiet as they have been this year. I've said it recently that more often than not we're struggling to find enough quality to illustrate POTW.

What the photo forums need is more effort from everyone to comment and react, and I'm as guilty as the next person for becoming lapse. I know from my own threads that having little or no comment on your photos can be disheartening - nothing to do with ego before that suggestion gets made, but just some acknowledgement for having taken the time to edit and share. I don't care if the comments are nothing to do with my skills or lack there of - if someone asks a question about markings, load outs, crews, locations etc, at least they've taken an interest in what is being shown and looked at them long enough to notice something.
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Re: What I'd like for picture threads 2018.

Postby Tommy on Mon 22 Jan 2018, 6:55 pm

I must have missed this over the Christmas break, but this is a really interesting discussion.

I'm a prolific "heavy" thread-maker insofar as airshows are concerned (though I'll always try to make sure I make it clear in the subject line). With modern military stuff, I'll post a lot less than airshows, but I suppose at airshows there's a lot more than you typically get from a day on the fence, or in the Loop. But, other than "stars" I try never to show the same airframe twice, or when I do, I try to make things as diverse as I can. 50+ shots which can be boiled down to 5 different machine-gun sequences lose my interest very swiftly.

For a second we'll take RIAT as an example - The threads I used to love and aspired to emulate on UKAR (and almost all of whatever "skill" I have in aviation photography, and indeed photography in general has come from this place over the years) were the huge mega threads, but only if done right. Chris Milne (Macc) was really excellent at it. Very seldom were two images ever the same, either in style, subject, or composition. And it wasn't just machines, it was people, it was different locations, it was chockablock full of variety and diversity, and that's been something I've tried to follow ever since.

It's very easy for a thread of 50+ shots to become an utter bore fest of endless RAFAT, BBMF, Belgian F-16, Typhoon & whatever else shots all taken from the FRIAT stand and, say, zero static, or arrivals shots, or whatever else. But because RIAT is so vast, and if you're there for the full whack, then there are so many different stories to tell, and I think there is scope to post a much larger number than usual.

Additionally, it's become convention that Andy does his Live Arrivals threads from East, and I'll tend to upload several from West each evening. By the time I come to wanting to post photos of the actual event, 3 days of arrivals have already made my thread rather large!

I tried 1600px for a while but I think it reveals more flaws than positives in my own photography, and I don't like uploading full-size images to Flickr, even with a watermark. For me, 1200Px is the magic number. It's of a sufficient size and detail that you can enjoy it, without tanking bandwith.

Also - subject line. Every time. "My take on..." will almost turn me off straight away. There are hundreds, and after a while I lose track of which ones I've viewed and which I haven't, and I end up missing good stuff because I just presume I've looked at such a thread. For me, I try to always say "Tommy at..." so people know it's me (and know to run swiftly in t'other direction and look at some other threads instead! :lol: ).

C&C - I do it too much myself, but I need to try to avoid saying "great shots" unless there is genuinely nothing more that I can add or critique. I love giving honest and well-intoned C&C - as much as anything else, it's nice to peer-review and chew the fat about photography. The most I ever learn about photography is when people say "I'm not sure about this, or I would have cropped that because...". I find it really useful.
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Re: What I'd like for picture threads 2018.

Postby toom317 on Mon 22 Jan 2018, 7:32 pm

I must have missed this thread as well. Agree with most of the points raised by the OP. Threads with 30 odd pics are a turn off. As for posting the same looking pic of different airframes, I don't mind them so much, if it is of a detachment or some other, it gives a good indication of what is there and helps with the reggies for the number crunchers. A major gripe I have is the inability of posters to do some serious self editing, and posting numerous pics of the same aircraft, often consecutive "machine gunned" images, when one or two would suffice. 3 shots coming up the taxiway, 2 as it turns onto the runway, another 3 or 4 as it hurtles off into the distance, and another 3 or 4 if it returns, when a couple of shots of either side of the airframe would show what was there on that day.
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Re: What I'd like for picture threads 2018.

Postby Wrexham Mackem on Tue 23 Jan 2018, 9:39 am

For me, as both an airshow and photography enthusiast, I see each airshow photo thread as a mini review. That poster's perspective on the event. This is UK Airshow Review first and foremost. For that reason I like to see that some thought has gone into the narrative, or at the very least the presentation order of the shots. They can tell their own little story. Even better if there are some words to give shots some context, and that there is some photography included that gives a sense of the venue, and the event in general.

If it takes 30 shots to do that for some events so be it.

Above all I appreciate the effort it takes to sit and sort, to edit and present, and it is appreciated. I really don't think we should over regulate. The more posts we have to browse, the better.
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Re: What I'd like for picture threads 2018.

Postby harkins on Tue 23 Jan 2018, 9:46 am

Interesting thread. Generally the points raised are reasonable, but some comments do seem to push elitism. Ok, so really bad photos, tiny blurry dark dots in a grey sky aren’t great to look at, but I’m not sure just how good a photo must be to be tolerated on here. Some comments even suggesting that everything on here is at best ok as all the decent photographers have gone elsewhere is depressing. I am often in awe of the photos posted on here, but to find out that they’re just the work of less skilled spammers has really made me think that I should just give my camera away.

Personally, I just find that I can quickly make my own decision on whether a thread is interesting, too long, too repetitive, high quality or anything else and scroll or back button accordingly.

One question I do have is, for those of us that know we aren’t great at photography, but would like to improve; is there a forum/site where you can post photos looking for constructive criticism without lowering the standard and spoiling it for the majority? I ask partly because I know my level and I’d never dream of posting on here, but at the same time pretty much nobody other than me ever sees my photos and I guess that does mean that I’m losing out on a potential source of criticism/advice both in respect of photography and processing.
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Re: What I'd like for picture threads 2018.

Postby Wissam24 on Tue 23 Jan 2018, 9:48 am

What I would say is you can post your photos asking explicitly for criticism and advice. If you were so inclined you could put it in the hints, tips and questions subforum
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